News & Notes XLII: Consolidation Season

[Nikishin Go Boom]

There is 6 years at 4.8 mil left on KKs contract. There are 5 years at 5.6 left on Trochek’s contract. Having 6 years left on a contract of a guy who isn’t good is very bad. See Rask, Viktor.

We can still buy out KK’s contract for a cap hit of 800k or less per year cap hit for another 2 offseasons. Less than 1% of the cap going forward. No risk.

That is if his play dips into buy out territory. His play is much better than his results this year, he should have 10 or more points right now with a combined inch difference of his shot and more finish from his teammates.

 

[Joe McGrath]

We can still buy out KK’s contract for a cap hit of 800k or less per year cap hit for another 2 offseasons. Less than 1% of the cap going forward. No risk.

That is if his play dips into buy out territory. His play is much better than his results this year, he should have 10 or more points right now with a combined inch difference of his shot and more finish from his teammates.

If he had 10 more points in the last 40 games he’d be tied with Martinook for 11th on the team.

As it is he’s 18th in actual reality. You know how many skaters dress every night?

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

If he had 10 more points in the last 40 games he’d be tied with Martinook for 11th on the team.

As it is he’s 18th in actual reality. You know how many skaters dress every night?

Im fully aware of how many dress. He is doing just fine and is still no risk. Again our success hasn’t dipped going from Tro to KK so here we are.

 

[Daeavorn]

Trocheck was too old to keep, everyone knows the Borg was never going to re sign him for what he wanted.

It's time to move on from this argument.

 

[Joe McGrath]

Someone else tap in please, I tried. 5 f***ing points in 40 games for the second line center and he’s fine. Holy f***

 

[Borsig]

Someone else tap in please, I tried. 5 f***ing points in 40 games for the second line center and he’s fine. Holy f***

KK dRiNk!

 

[MinJaBen]

In 5v5 he is filling the roster void. As far as special teams were weren’t going to get KK to fill that void, we had to get a righty to do that for FO purposes.

KK is the roster void.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Someone else tap in please, I tried. 5 f***ing points in 40 games for the second line center and he’s fine. Holy f***

Holy f*** no one is arguing he isn’t under producing his contract. The argument is his production is of similar rate to tro, per 60 it is, we as a team haven’t suffered because of the switch, and there is no risk in the contract. So what are we still going on about?

 

[MinJaBen]

No, again, he was replaceable. We have effectively replaced him without that contract risk.

So you don't think handing out an eight year deal at nearly $5M per is a contract risk for a fourth liner that plays none of the PP or PK?

 

[bleedgreen]

Holy f*** no one is arguing he isn’t under producing his contract. The argument is his production is of similar rate to tro, per 60 it is, we as a team haven’t suffered because of the switch, and there is no risk in the contract. So what are we still going on about?

The argument actually was we’re a better team with KK. Which is preposterous. Your end of it is trying to diminish the need of a 2C with stats. Just because we’ve survived the loss of a player overall, doesn’t meant we wouldn’t be better with the player or with an actual replacement. The team is actively still trying to replace the guy, the organization doesn’t think we’re better or even “just as good”.

We didn’t want to pay 36 year old Tro. That’s it. That’s the reason. It’s not because despite backwards use of stats we can make an argument that KK is actually just as good despite not being just as good at any actual aspect of playing the game of hockey. We’d be better with a right handed center who scores more than Kk and at least chips in on special teams. It’s not a hard concept to grasp.

 

[CanesUltimate11]

Trocheck was too old to keep, everyone knows the Borg was never going to re sign him for what he wanted.

It's time to move on from this argument.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

So you don't think handing out an eight year deal at nearly $5M per is a contract risk for a fourth liner that plays none of the PP or PK?

Based on his age, no, not at all. How could it?

The center market has been really bad this past couple of seasons.
We get the 1/3rd buyout if it doesn’t work. Looking at the aav it is 0.4-0.9% of the cap today with that percentage shrinking each year. That doesn’t affect us at all.
The FA market in general has been awful the last couple of years and it isn’t like the KK deal has stopped us from making any moves.

If the deal had prevented us from being successful or held us back in other moves, sure it would be a risk. Based on how this management has executed, I don’t see anything to say it is an issue.

This would be the first offseason were we need to evaluate his play and performance, with the market, to see if his contract now is risky. We are going to get tight with the cap. But again the risk will be low, really low, with that buyout. That is without a team like Zona, who has no centers, and struggles to sign guys, being interested.

The argument actually was we’re a better team with KK. Which is preposterous. Your end of it is trying to diminish the need of a 2C with stats. Just because we’ve survived the loss of a player overall, doesn’t meant we wouldn’t be better with the player or with an actual replacement. The team is actively still trying to replace the guy, the organization doesn’t think we’re better or even “just as good”.

We didn’t want to pay 36 year old Tro. That’s it. That’s the reason. It’s not because despite backwards use of stats we can make an argument that KK is actually just as good despite not being just as good at any actual aspect of playing the game of hockey. We’d be better with a right handed center who scores more than Kk and at least chips in on special teams. It’s not a hard concept to grasp.

We didn’t want to pay a 36 year old Trocheck knowing we had a center putting up similar rates of production on the team. I agree with that. It’s not hard to grasp that.

Looking at our results last year, we were a better team and more successful. Sorry you can’t accept that as anything but preposterous.

 

[MinJaBen]

If the deal had prevented us from being successful or held us back in other moves, sure it would be a risk.

Define successful and how we can evaluate the effect on other moves. I think you can make a very real argument that he has diminished our success (as in we would be even more successful with a guy who can play his position for his cost) even if we haven't "failed" as a team. Plus, how can you possibly know that his presence on the roster has not kept the organization from making a move for another guy? In either his position or another because of the salary cap space he is consuming? Again, it is very easy to use some hypotheticals, especially last year at the deadline when we were very tight due to LTIR cap constraints, to see how moves may not have happened because his cap space prevented addressing needs.

When the organization tells you that using all of their cap space is weapon they chose to use to be competitive, then the wasting of cap space on a player who doesn't even closely live up to it is a competitive disadvantage.

 

[Joe McGrath]

Holy f*** no one is arguing he isn’t under producing his contract. The argument is his production is of similar rate to tro, per 60 it is, we as a team haven’t suffered because of the switch, and there is no risk in the contract. So what are we still going on about?

His production isn’t a similar rate at all. You’re just making shit up.

Points per 60 at 5 on 5 Trochek is 1.98 and KK which is 2nd only to Panarin over the last 2 years for the Rangers.

KK is 1.57 which puts him just slightly beneath Martinook and Staal at 9th among guys who played at least 50 games in that time frame.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Define successful and how we can evaluate the effect on other moves. I think you can make a very real argument that he has diminished our success (as in we would be even more successful with a guy who can play his position for his cost) even if we haven't "failed" as a team. Plus, how can you possibly know that his presence on the roster has not kept the organization from making a move for another guy? In either his position or another because of the salary cap space he is consuming? Again, it is very easy to use some hypotheticals, especially last year at the deadline when we were very tight due to LTIR cap constraints, to see how moves may not have happened because his cap space prevented addressing needs.

When the organization tells you that using all of their cap space is weapon they chose to use to be competitive, then the wasting of cap space on a player who doesn't even closely live up to it is a competitive disadvantage.

Moves:

What players in the last 2-3 years would we have realistically targeted in FA or via trade? We tried trading for the guys who made us better. Horvat, Tkachuk, and Meier. Is there anyone on the FA list we would have been serious players for with an extra 5 million? No one is jumping out on me. Sure there a couple of good names but the management team doesn’t take on long term contracts for players on the downslope of age based performance. Nino isn’t likely because we would be short a center. We do short term contracts or nothing. That isn’t a norm in UFA. Who am I missing?

We are a results based business. We were top 4 in the nhl last regular season. That is success. We went to the ECF and that is success. We were competitive with a very hot team. A cup cant be the only measure of success. We did that with kk at 2c. Now im not coming close to saying KK was a key member of that. It is demonstrating that our 3rd highest playing 5v5 center isn’t as important to our overall success as we thought. Trocheck filled in fine and now its KK’s turn. Neither trocheck nor KK are / were a key cog in our successful seasons.

His production isn’t a similar rate at all. You’re just making shit up.

Points per 60 at 5 on 5 Trochek is 1.98 and KK which is 2nd only to Panarin over the last 2 years for the Rangers.

KK is 1.57 which puts him just slightly beneath Martinook and Staal at 9th among guys who played at least 50 games in that time frame.

Trying to compare trocheck riding Panarin’s coat tails and kk who is centering a combo of noesen, TT and fast is laughable. Who is making bad comparisons again? I compared them apples to apples on this team. In fact the rates were very similar

 

[chaz4hockey]

I liked Tro for his size, spirit and generally his productivity but he did have a roller coaster point approach too. Where we really miss him is in big games versus top teams. I probably wouldn't have signed him either but it's easy to have regrets seeing how little productivity we are getting from a 4th line KK

The last 3 games against SC favorites, Vegas, Florida, Dallas we went 47, 39, 39 in FO%. That isn't going to cut it tight playoff hockey where winning face-offs in O/D zones can be crucial to success.

btw: I'd add that we are spending almost $11M for 4th line play and that in my view is a big time mis spend. After a hot start, TT has fallen back to the abyss similar to LY and I would't re-sign him.

 

[Joe McGrath]

Moves:

What players in the last 2-3 years would we have realistically targeted in FA or via trade? We tried trading for the guys who made us better. Horvat, Tkachuk, and Meier. Is there anyone on the FA list we would have been serious players for with an extra 5 million? No one is jumping out on me. Sure there a couple of good names but the management team doesn’t take on long term contracts for players on the downslope of age based performance. Nino isn’t likely because we would be short a center. We do short term contracts or nothing. That isn’t a norm in UFA. Who am I missing?

We are a results based business. We were top 4 in the nhl last regular season. That is success. We went to the ECF and that is success. We were competitive with a very hot team. A cup cant be the only measure of success. We did that with kk at 2c. Now im not coming close to saying KK was a key member of that. It is demonstrating that our 3rd highest playing 5v5 center isn’t as important to our overall success as we thought. Trocheck filled in fine and now its KK’s turn. Neither trocheck nor KK are / were a key cog in our successful seasons.


Trying to compare trocheck riding Panarin’s coat tails and kk who is centering a combo of noesen, TT and fast is laughable. Who is making bad comparisons again? I compared them apples to apples on this team. In fact the rates were very similar

Trochek’s 5 on 5 points per 60 with the Canes from 2020-2022 was 1.93 a whopping .04 less than “riding Panarin’s coattails”.

 

[MinJaBen]

What players in the last 2-3 years would we have realistically targeted in FA or via trade?

That is impossible for us to know unless you or I are secretly members of the front office. Trochek himself was an out of left field type of trade. How do you or I know if there were or were not similar options that were not acted on because KK was already there or because of his salary.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

That is impossible for us to know unless you or I are secretly members of the front office. Trochek himself was an out of left field type of trade. How do you or I know if there were or were not similar options that were not acted on because KK was already there or because of his salary.

I heard you were a secret member

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Trochek’s 5 on 5 points per 60 with the Canes from 2020-2022 was 1.93 a whopping .04 less than “riding Panarin’s coattails”.

you're right i misread your post. what was KK's points 60 rate his first 2 full seasons here?

1.88. so how many more times do we need to go back to the same point?

even better. KK not so lucky this year and I suggest he should have 8-10 more points right now. Lets say just say he is only paritally unlucky and he has 5 more points this year. Guess what his p/60 rate is..... 1.89.

we can stay on this carousel all we want but it comes down to trocheck didnt do anything to change the fortunes of this team that KK isnt at least keeping pace with. Again we are getting similar rates of expected production out a guy that is younger and cheaper. Again that 2C spot isnt as important to our success as we think because A. we have some good wingers on the team and 2. its all about the playoff luck/matchups.

 

[Stickpucker]

But why would they want people to arrive on public transportation and be more likely to consume alcoholic beverages...?

Sir this is Raleigh we don't have that fancy public transportation you speak of.

Def less "stupid Trochek" penalties, for sure

He's been a saint on the Rongos his pim are way down.

 

[Lempo]

Sir this is Raleigh we don't have that fancy public transportation you speak of.

Curiouser and curiouser...

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

An extra tenth of a point 5v5 per 60 for a top 6 forward is about an additional 2 points over the course of a full season. It’s not worth fighting about, folks.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

An extra tenth of a point 5v5 per 60 for a top 6 forward is about an additional 2 points over the course of a full season. It’s not worth fighting about, folks.

Exactly

 

[Borsig]

I liked Tro for his size, spirit and generally his productivity but he did have a roller coaster point approach too. Where we really miss him is in big games versus top teams. I probably wouldn't have signed him either but it's easy to have regrets seeing how little productivity we are getting from a 4th line KK

The last 3 games against SC favorites, Vegas, Florida, Dallas we went 47, 39, 39 in FO%. That isn't going to cut it tight playoff hockey where winning face-offs in O/D zones can be crucial to success.

btw: I'd add that we are spending almost $11M for 4th line play and that in my view is a big time mis spend. After a hot start, TT has fallen back to the abyss similar to LY and I would't re-sign him.

how about 8M for a 3rd pair defesneman?

dRiNk!