News and Notes XIX: Well... We're waiting

[Stickpucker]

Lack for Halak...no take back.

 

[Joe McGrath]

Unless he's injured, I think it's a hollow excuse.
1)As I said earlier, he played 1.5 games in a weeks time before this last game. That's more than enough recovery time for a professional athlete (unless he's injured).
2)Over the next 10 days, the Canes only play 2 games, then follow that up with a back to back in early Feb..
3) Then, the next (2nd) week of February, the Canes have 2 games in a 7 day stretch with a 3 day break in between the two games and then get a 5 day break.

If Cam is "broken", over-use won't be the issue.

It's not just isolating a certain stretch of games, it's wear and tear on a 33 year old with significant injury history. The last time they used him like this by the end his back gave out from carrying them on it. And he's never been the same since.

And that ignores the mental fatigue that the skaters seem to have found themselves in as well. Getting absolutely blitzed this stretch probably didn't helpthat aspect.

He started 21 games in a row. If prior to the season you told me he would start 21games in a row I'd laugh in your face at the absurdity of that. That's over 1/4 of the season. That's crazy.

 

[RodTheBawd]

I know he said it somewhat tongue in cheek, but a couple of weeks ago when asked about whether or not Ward could handle that workload, Peters said something along the lines of "No concern at all. Hell if I were 32 I'd go run laps around the arena after a game." Just seems odd that a guy like Peters would dismiss the notion that he might be riding Ward a little too hard. Unless he just doesn't want to call GMRF out for not shopping for a legit backup.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

It's not just isolating a certain stretch of games, it's wear and tear on a 33 year old with significant injury history. The last time they used him like this by the end his back gave out from carrying them on it. And he's never been the same since.

By wear and tear do you mean injuries? Because if it's physical fatigue you are talking about, then it's 100% relevant focusing on a small stretch of games. Trained professional athletes, even at 33 years old can recover from fatigue over a very short stretch. In fact, their bodies perform better and get stronger as the season goes on and they play more game (game shape). Now, if you are talking about injuries, even small "nagging" ones, bumps and bruises, etc...then yep, I 100% agree (which is why I said "unless it's injuries"), but I don't buy the "fatigue from playing too much" at all, except for a back to back situation where there isn't ample recovery time.

And that ignores the mental fatigue that the skaters seem to have found themselves in as well. Getting absolutely blitzed this stretch probably didn't helpthat aspect.

I agree mental fatigue can occur, on the flip side, goalies, in particular, say they like to play more because it keeps them sharp. When a team isn't playing well, it can be harder to stay mentally sharp.

Either way, with only 6 games over the next 24 days, "fatigue" will be a hollow excuse if guys (including Cam) don't play well. There's 1 back to back in that stretch, but every other game has 3+ days of rest in between.

 

[The Faulker 27]

Didn't Cam leave practice early last week and it was a bit ambiguous what actually happened? I don't necessarily think he's injured, but he was hot every game for a long time and a switch was flipped at some point. I can also buy the mental fatigue aspect, burn out, whatever your want to call it. Even with a lot of physical rest, he may have lost that mojo. The brain can be a fickle beast and athleticism and technique are just 2 parts of the equation.

 

[Joe McGrath]

By wear and tear do you mean injuries? Because if it's physical fatigue you are talking about, then it's 100% relevant focusing on a small stretch of games. Trained professional athletes, even at 33 years old can recover from fatigue over a very short stretch. In fact, their bodies perform better and get stronger as the season goes on and they play more game (game shape). Now, if you are talking about injuries, even small "nagging" ones, bumps and bruises, etc...then yep, I 100% agree (which is why I said "unless it's injuries"), but I don't buy the "fatigue from playing too much" at all, except for a back to back situation where there isn't ample recovery time.



I agree mental fatigue can occur, on the flip side, goalies, in particular, say they like to play more because it keeps them sharp. When a team isn't playing well, it can be harder to stay mentally sharp.

Either way, with only 6 games over the next 24 days, "fatigue" will be a hollow excuse if guys (including Cam) don't play well. There's 1 back to back in that stretch, but every other game has 3+ days of rest in between.

I do mean minor nagging injuries by wear and tear. Things that wouldn't even show up on an NFL injury report. I don't think he's gasping for breath out there. It could frankly be more mental than anything else. He isn't as compact and efficient in his movements. Kind of like how a pitchers mechanics get thrown off. That can happen as a result of fatigue Or correcting for a nagging small injury.

 

[DaveG]

There was that report of him taking a puck or whatever it was to the back of his leg during practice before that first Jackets game... which also happens to coincide with the team going from giving up about 2 a game to 3+ a game again.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I do mean minor nagging injuries by wear and tear. Things that wouldn't even show up on an NFL injury report. I don't think he's gasping for breath out there. It could frankly be more mental than anything else. He isn't as compact and efficient in his movements. Kind of like how a pitchers mechanics get thrown off. That can happen as a result of fatigue Or correcting for a nagging small injury.

Yeah, I agree with that.

 

[tarheelhockey]

There was that report of him taking a puck or whatever it was to the back of his leg during practice before that first Jackets game... which also happens to coincide with the team going from giving up about 2 a game to 3+ a game again.

There's clearly something off about his lateral movement right now, and a sore/bruised leg could very well help explain that.

 

[tarheelhockey]

One of the other coaches gave Bill Peters his "best coach" vote in TSN's midseason poll.

 

[Joe McGrath]

One of the other coaches gave Bill Peters his "best coach" vote in TSN's midseason poll.

Probably Babcock.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

It was probably Peter's plan just to try to make it to this coming stretch of games playing Cam as much as possible, not that he had much choice. With the all-star break and then the Canes 5 day break, he probably figured if he can make it to this point in the season where they only have 6 games over 24 days, guys can get healthy.

Can't say I necessarily blame Peters too much on this. Lack has a concussion and Leighton isn't even NHL back-up material. I think the outcome of these last 4 games probably wouldn't be much different no matter what Peters did earlier in the season.

 

[A Star is Burns]

It was probably Peter's plan just to try to make it to this coming stretch of games playing Cam as much as possible, not that he had much choice. With the all-star break and then the Canes 5 day break, he probably figured if he can make it to this point in the season where they only have 6 games over 24 days, guys can get healthy.

Can't say I necessarily blame Peters too much on this. Lack has a concussion and Leighton isn't even NHL back-up material. I think the outcome of these last 4 games probably wouldn't be much different no matter what Peters did earlier in the season.

I agree. That's why I kept saying they should run him hard considering the situation. If Ward had gotten some rest, we probably would have lost a game or two we won during his hot streak with Leighton or one of the rookies in net. So best case, we probably lost some games we won earlier, maybe Ward plays better in one or two of these four games and steals a game or two. We aren't in a much different situation, or possibly worse. And if he is tired, he's going to get plenty of rest coming up as BBA says and like I said the entire time. If we'd had Lack, and he'd been playing well, of course we would have worked him in, and that might have had a chance to work. Otherwise, I think we'd be in the same or worse situation had we sat Cam like most seem to have wanted.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I don't understand why Peters didn't rest Ward during each of the losses. Playing him during the wins is understandable, but why not give him the night off when we lose?

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Unless its a true freak injury (Rick Nash stepping on Wards leg), most injuries on sports are the result of wear and tear and overuse. Best example is baseball pitchers, each throw tears the elbow just a little bit more till bam! it explodes on him.

Hopefully this speculated bruised leg is something a two week vacation can heal.

Btw bba, you say everyone knew that putting in Murphy and Dahlbeck in front of Leighton was an awful decision- but that was the closest game this stretch in on ice play and score.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Btw bba, you say everyone knew that putting in Murphy and Dahlbeck in front of Leighton was an awful decision- but that was the closest game this stretch in on ice play and score.

Right, but that had nothing to do with those 2 and drawing that conclusion is a reach, at best. Maybe, just maybe if those 2 guys weren't in the line-up, they would have won? They were on the ice for the very 1st 2 goals against and were -2 with only about 10 min. of ice time. Like I said, IMO, not a great decision.

EDIT: Of course, I think playing Murphy and Dahlbeck any time is not a very good decision.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

I dunno, it's funny that we bash Peters' for making an "awful" decision, but the end result is easily the best game this stretch. Certainly not that Murphy is better than Hanifin (though Tennifin is all kinds of awful), but "accountability" wise.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Unless its a true freak injury (Rick Nash stepping on Wards leg), most injuries on sports are the result of wear and tear and overuse. Best example is baseball pitchers, each throw tears the elbow just a little bit more till bam! it explodes on him.

I really don't think that's true. Using baseball pitchers as an example isn't a very good example to compare to other athletes. Pitchers put a huge amount of violent stress on 1 part of their body (similarly, so do tennis players) time and time again and that's a very extreme example that is very common in every sport.

I rarely hear of hockey players getting an injury like that from over-use. I regularly hear of pulled groins, bruises, ACLs, MCLs, shoulder separation, concussions, sprains, etc..but almost always those are associated with an event (collision, falling awkwardly, twisting something, etc..) and rarely something like what a pitcher experiences or getting "tennis elbow".

I do acknowledge though that the more a guy plays, the more chance he has for any sort of injury and as they get older (like Ward), it has a bigger impact. Whether that's a bruise, a pull, a tweak, a twist, sprain or whatever. To me, that's where the wear and tear comes in.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I dunno, it's funny that we bash Peters' for making an "awful" decision, but the end result is easily the best game this stretch. Certainly not that Murphy is better than Hanifin (though Tennifin is all kinds of awful), but "accountability" wise.

Why? Joe Maddon made some terrible decisions in game 6 and 7 of the world series and he was a world series champion. Doesn't mean we can't call him out for something he did that wasn't smart. It doesn't discount all the good he did either. Just because the game was "close" doesn't mean all of Peter's decisions were good.

I like Peters as a coach and think he's doing a very good job with this team, but that doesn't mean I will like 100% of his decisions. It's really nothing more than that.

I'll take Hannifin/Tennyson over Murphy/Dahlbeck 100 times out of 100.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

I rarely hear of hockey players getting an injury like that from over-use. I regularly hear of pulled groins, bruises, ACLs, MCLs, shoulder separation, concussions, sprains, etc..but almost always those are associated with an event (collision, falling awkwardly, twisting something, etc..) and rarely something like what a pitcher experiences or getting "tennis elbow".

I do acknowledge though that the more a guy plays, the more chance he has for any sort of injury and as they get older (like Ward), it has a bigger impact. Whether that's a bruise, a pull, a tweak, a twist, sprain or whatever. To me, that's where the wear and tear comes in.

Outside of concussions and possibly separated shoulders, all of those can be, anf often are, a result of a long series of unnoticed little tears, leading up to the big tear.

Teddy Bridgewater's knee implodes on itself just from running backwards...i keep using extreme examples because they illustrate this point. Same with pitchers. People associate it with one event, but that's just natural human seeking of cause and effect.

Ward was overused, he took a puck to the leg and got hurt in a way he may not have otherwise. It's over and done with, all we can do now is hope he recovers sufficiently.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

.

I'll take Hannifin/Tennyson over Murphy/Dahlbeck 100 times out of 100.

So clearly the point wasn't because Tennifin is worse than Murphy and Dahlbeck. In this stretch both pairings have been on the ice for multiple goals against in each game (latter only one).

All I'm saying is, in this stretch of 4 losses you're attaching to a decision to replace our current awful 3rd pairing with a worse-to-slightly-worse pairing in a game that was closest score wise and in on ice play- and one that was clearly based mores o on accountability than on on ice results.

So I get, and totally agree, with questioning decisions, I just think this one is a bit offbase.

 

[Spede]

Why not trade Aho?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Outside of concussions and possibly separated shoulders, all of those can be, anf often are, a result of a long series of unnoticed little tears, leading up to the big tear.

Meh, I just don't agree. Yes they can be, but frequently are not. Faulk's ankle issue wasn't. Staal's leg 2 years ago wasn't. Nestrasil's injury wasn't. Skinner's wrist injury a few years ago wasn't. E. Staal's MCL and Ward's MCL injuries weren't. I could go on, but rarely have we seen injuries in hockey like a pitcher sustains due to extended use. It's almost always event driven.

Teddy Bridgewater's knee implodes on itself just from running backwards...

Bridgewater was suffering from overuse in the pre-season?

i keep using extreme examples because they illustrate this point. Same with pitchers. People associate it with one event, but that's just natural human seeking of cause and effect.

It's a different point IMO and I explained why. I don't think anyone would disagree that a pitcher, who violently whips his arm a 50-100 times a game can cause damage that gets worse over time. Apples and oranges comparing that to other athletes.

Ward was overused, he took a puck to the leg and got hurt in a way he may not have otherwise. It's over and done with, all we can do now is hope he recovers sufficiently.

Wait. Are you suggesting that because he was used more, a puck to the leg hurt him in a different way? I find that very hard to accept and think that's a huge stretch.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Why not trade Aho?

Not sure if you are serious or being sarcastic, but the Canes need all the offensive skill they can get, so trading him makes no sense.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

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Bridgewater was suffering from overuse in the pre-season?

Let me be clear.

There are injuries, like Ward getting his MCL cut by Rick Nash, that are clearly associated to one event. "Freak" injuries.

And then, there are injuries that are not just a bad hit or a rogue skate. There are injuries that are the result of dozens of different little injuries piling up over time that then compound into one big injury.

For pitchers, UCL tears are the function of a bunch of different tears. So one day, Joe Smith winds up and bam! his elbow blows up.

Meaning it's not that that one windup that was the problem...it was the dozens of tears before. This is what happened with Bridgewater. And more, we only know this because there was no obvious associative event.

I'll grant you this, for UCL and ACL/MCL injury, the problem is that cartilage can not be strengthened by training, it can only heal, and it takes a long time to heal, so much that the 4/7 day rest is almost irrelevant. Muscle injuries like this are rarer because muscle can be strengthened and it heals very quickly.

But if hockey players play a bunch of games in a row, where they aren't granted proper time to to heal, you see the same effect above. Little tears and injuries pile up. Which is what I think happened to Ward.

So he takes a puck to the leg and it hurts him. And now the 'Canes are up **** creek.

Not that I blame Bill vehemently here. Game time its tired ward over lack and Leighton 100/100. It just sucks to see the wheels come flying off.

But basically, if you don't give someone proper time to rest and heal, they're more likely to get hurt. Which everyone here knows. This is just the literal mechanic behind it.

Edit: I went back and checked: Ward played 5 back to backs over this span, as well as 2 instances of 3 games in 4 days- and the last game before he started to suck was his 3rd game in 4 days, Boston on the 8th. That Columbus game the 10th was his 4th game in 6 nights.