New York Times article on the Coyotes

[Neighborhood Coyote]

The Business Of Hockey List (forbes.com)

Revenue Per Fan is determined by “local revenues divided by metro population with populations in two-team markets divided in half.” according to Forbes.

Here's the list of every team and their Revenue Per Fan:

FLA - $5
AZ - $5
CHI - $6
ANA - $6
NYI - $6
WAS - $7
DAL - $8
MIN - $8
CHI - $8
NJ - $9
COL - $9
BOS - $10
SJS - $10
LAK - $11
STL - $11
NYR - $12
CBJ - $13
TML - $14
VAN - $14
DET - $14
TBL - $15
NSH - $17
VGK - $18
PIT - $20
MTL - $20
OTT - $21
CAR - $23
WPG - $27
CAL - $28
BUF - $28
EDM - $43
SEA - N/A

Edit: Sure, the Revenue Per Fan is low, but with more context we're not alone in that regard. The actual attendance numbers are the bigger issue. There's some very successful teams with low RPF.

Shoalts/Glendale also left out the part explaining just how exceptional EDM at $43 is when comparing.

Thanks for the list...seeing Chicago with 6 (or is it 8? On there twice?) per fan right above the Yotes makes me think that the $5 per fan vs 43 thing is just someone bringing up stats they don't understand trying to make biased points. Or they do understand it but whatever they can do to fit their agenda.

 

[Kai Yo T]

I don't see the logic of the formula nor understand how it's relevant. Dividing by population doesn't yield "per fan."

I don't either. I still was curious as to what it looks like when you do compare every team with the same formula.

 

[Kai Yo T]

Thanks for the list...seeing Chicago with 6 (or is it 8? On there twice?) per fan right above the Yotes makes me think that the $5 per fan vs 43 thing is just someone bringing up stats they don't understand trying to make biased points. Or they do understand it but whatever they can do to fit their agenda.

Fixed, thanks!

CHI - $6
PHI - $8

 

[XX]

I don't see the logic of the formula nor understand how it's relevant. Dividing by population doesn't yield "per fan."

It provides a rough approximation of market capture. So Buffalo is doing a really good job of being relevant in that city, while the Coyotes are not doing a good job relative to the size of the Phoenix metro.

Chicago metro has basically twice the population of Phoenix, so that number is still reflective. Without context it would look odd.

The numbers are also deceptive. $5 per fan for AZ to $8 per fan for Dallas might not seem like a lot, but that's actually a lot of revenue. 5 million x $5 would be $25m, but 7.5 million x $8 would be $60m.

A healthy Coyotes franchise likely has an RPF of $12 or more.

 

[MIGs Dog]

It provides a rough approximation of market capture. So Buffalo is doing a really good job of being relevant in that city, while the Coyotes are not doing a good job relative to the size of the Phoenix metro.

Chicago metro has basically twice the population of Phoenix, so that number is still reflective. Without context it would look odd.

The numbers are also deceptive. $5 per fan for AZ to $8 per fan for Dallas might not seem like a lot, but that's actually a lot of revenue. 5 million x $5 would be $25m, but 7.5 million x $8 would be $60m.

A healthy Coyotes franchise likely has an RPF of $12 or more.

Canadian cities love hockey...who knew?

And you might be right about the $12, but that's my point. For some markets $12 would be abysmal, for others it would be great. The data as it's presented lacks context.

 

[MIGs Dog]

The key to effective data analysis/presentation is to not leave it up to the audience to determine relevancy.

 

[XX]

The key to effective data analysis/presentation is to not leave it up to the audience to determine relevancy.

If you actually follow the link posted it's just one of many measures presented. Kai just went through and jotted them all down.

It's useless at deriving profitability but it's actually a fairly decent measure of market penetration.

 

[TheLegend]

Completely disagree on this point. For concerts, GRA is way better -- I've seen Coldplay, Lorde and U2 at GRA, big acts like Bieber are playing there this year (though there aren't that many of them). At Footprint I saw... Trevor Noah? Way more available seats at GRA, the entire upper level of Footprint is just too far away to make any sense for a show. And for a concert, the location doesn't matter as much, am sure fans of big acts like Bieber etc have no problem driving up from Tucson or wherever and making a day of it.

The key is do you believe that GRA can't fill the arena just because the NHL reserves dates ahead of time? Personally I don't (or at least not that extreme of a version of things), otherwise Staples or any other NHL arena would never have shows.

I think GRA's just had enough of being shit on by the NHL (more recently Alex Meruelo), not to mention Glendale's been subsidizing the team for decades. Maybe Westgate needs us and maybe they don't, but at some point enough is enough and it sounds like Glendale has reached that point. Especially because our clown of an ownership group would continue to have to be chased for things like rent.

Also, Bob Parsons (billionaire founder of GoDaddy) owns Westgate, if the Coyotes were that important to the district, he would've made some statement by now or maybe even made some noise about trying to buy the team. Either way I don't think the Yotes are nearly as important to Westgate / Glendale as some of us think we are, and more importantly it looks like the Glendale leadership shares that view

Glendale may be “better” for concerts. But Pollstar numbers don’t lie. Footprint did twice the non-sporting ticket sales as GRA in 2019 (pre-pandemic) and the ratio has been consistent for the last several years.

This in spite of Footprint also hosting the Suns, Mercury and Rattlers.

 

[Jakey53]

Completely disagree on this point. For concerts, GRA is way better -- I've seen Coldplay, Lorde and U2 at GRA, big acts like Bieber are playing there this year (though there aren't that many of them). At Footprint I saw... Trevor Noah? Way more available seats at GRA, the entire upper level of Footprint is just too far away to make any sense for a show. And for a concert, the location doesn't matter as much, am sure fans of big acts like Bieber etc have no problem driving up from Tucson or wherever and making a day of it.

The key is do you believe that GRA can't fill the arena just because the NHL reserves dates ahead of time? Personally I don't (or at least not that extreme of a version of things), otherwise Staples or any other NHL arena would never have shows.

I think GRA's just had enough of being shit on by the NHL (more recently Alex Meruelo), not to mention Glendale's been subsidizing the team for decades. Maybe Westgate needs us and maybe they don't, but at some point enough is enough and it sounds like Glendale has reached that point. Especially because our clown of an ownership group would continue to have to be chased for things like rent.

Also, Bob Parsons (billionaire founder of GoDaddy) owns Westgate, if the Coyotes were that important to the district, he would've made some statement by now or maybe even made some noise about trying to buy the team. Either way I don't think the Yotes are nearly as important to Westgate / Glendale as some of us think we are, and more importantly it looks like the Glendale leadership shares that view

I guess my only question is why can't they have more dates sold? There has to be a reason.

 

[PainForShane]

Glendale may be “better” for concerts. But Pollstar numbers don’t lie. Footprint did twice the non-sporting ticket sales as GRA in 2019 (pre-pandemic) and the ratio has been consistent for the last several years.

This in spite of Footprint also hosting the Suns, Mercury and Rattlers.

All true. GRA's excuse is "the NHL requires us to set aside xxxx days and by the time the NHL releases their schedule most bands are booked" which I don't 100% believe bc how many other NHL arenas are able to book concerts. Different discussion though.

Assuming the Coyotes end up moving we'll see if GRA can take shows away from Footprint and if so how many. At the very least that event staff will be incredibly motivated.