New System, New Stats, New Expectations

[AustonMitchWilly]

Taken from r/leafs

These guys are the best hockey players in the world, but they go up against the best hockey players in the world every night, too. Different systems manage the puck and protect certain areas of the ice differently; how a player looks under one system will depend on how the style his team plays accentuates the positive attributes and hides the deficiencies of himself and his teammates.
Carlyle's defensive coverage was under constant scrutiny because he was content to let the opposition take a ton of shots on net as long as those shots were from the perimeter of the defensive zone. Once the opposition had set up in the offensive zone, he had the Leafs chasing them around the zone in an effort to either pressure the puck carrier into an area of the ice they were content to allow a shot from, or forcing the puck carrier to make a pass to what Carlyle deemed to be a "non-threatening" area of the ice. Unfortunately, so much movement and sustained pressure against led to breakdowns in coverage, and we saw lots of shots against from all areas of the ice.
Executing this type of coverage successfully is very difficult, and Carlyle's specific approach hadn't been successful for him since he had a roster with defensively-strong centremen and multiple hall-of-fame defencemen patrolling his blueline - his teams started to get significantly out-shot and out-chanced once Pronger left Anaheim. Few Leaf forwards are particularly good at helping with puck retrieval, and they ended up looking even more inept because chasing the opposition around their own zone pulled them away from good outlet positions; this led to a lot of possession given away in the neutral zone once they were able to finally scurry back to the boards and chip the puck over their defensive blueline. Even when the team wasn't pressured and had opportunities to make clean breakouts, most of the time they chose to have the defencemen blast it 100ft up ice to a stationary winger on the boards at centre ice who would deflect the puck into the offensive zone and let the opposite winger chase it down. Other than some odd-man transition rushes created off of turnovers by the speed of Kessel and JVR, and the occasional dancing through the NZ by Kessel and Kadri for a controlled entry, the methods of moving the puck up ice under Carlyle were ugly and ended up with the opposition quickly retrieving the puck and bringing it back into the Leafs end to start another shooting gallery.
I've only watched little snippets of the two games under Horachek (and it is only two games), but it seems like they're doing a much better job at attacking the puck carrier without having everyone chase out of position and leaving areas of the ice wide open (so far). Breakouts are much easier because the forwards are straying from their outlet positions a lot less, and the team is focused on moving up ice as a five-man unit which gives them more options for entering the offensive zone. Skilled players look a lot better under this approach as opposed to Carlyle's style of play because they are moving up the ice quickly and with more puck control while having to defend a lot less.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

This forum is a joke. 1 game erases 3 years of choking. I dont give a **** if the coach and system are different. This exact same core.

Kessel and Phaneuf still have no heart, and will slump sometime within this season. This team will not win a cup with this core.

But, but, but #BasedHorachek

 

[FlyingLeafus]

1 win and people are ready to drink the kool aid again lol. Do I want them to turn things around? Absolutely been waiting for years for that to happen... Do I think they will turn it around? Not a chance in hell. It'll take a lot more than a coaching change to make this team a winner. Just wait til the end of the season, everyone will see.

 

[zeke]

The only change was effort .

Laughable

 

[zeke]

Overall, under a proven horrendous coach in carlyle, the talenet was still able to win at a 92pts playoff bubble pace.

An improvement to just a decent coach could easily up that pace over 100pts. Easily.

 

[Morbo]

replace "coach" with "defence" and that works for me.

 

[ldnk]

1 win and people are ready to drink the kool aid again lol. Do I want them to turn things around? Absolutely been waiting for years for that to happen... Do I think they will turn it around? Not a chance in hell. It'll take a lot more than a coaching change to make this team a winner. Just wait til the end of the season, everyone will see.

Better keep the torches and pitchforks away, your strawman is in grave danger.

Noone is proclaiming that the Leafs are cured and all is well with the team. The Leafs gave up 46 shots over two games.

The number of games where the Leafs gave up 26 shots on the season prior to Horachek: 5 - (Buffalo [10], Colorado [24], Boston [26], Pittsburgh [26], New Jersey [26])

The Leafs outshot their opponent in 41 of 166 games under Carlyle over his coaching tenure.

The flaws of the team are still present. Their defensive unit isn't Cup calibre. They lack size up the middle and they lack balance in terms of physical play and speed/skill with their forwards.

Only time will tell whether Horachek can demonstrate whether there is enough on the roster to pursue a retool rather than a full on demolition. There were noticeable changes in how the Leafs played in the defensive zone the last two games. Things that never happened under Carlyle, even in their effective games. I'm optimistic about that. But this notion that people are declaring the Leafs cured because they played a more reasonable defensive approach is laughable because it isn't happening.

And they very well may fail to demonstate anything positive by the end of the year. That is fine. The Leafs are in rebuild mode then and they trade off anyone and everyone they can and we can enjoy a roster of Clarkson + AHLers next year.

 

[diceman934]

Laughable

What is laughable is you believing that the coach in two games has made a change to the system the leafs play...When the Leafs coach himself said that he would not change the systems....

I saw the same systems ....With effort we played several games such as the last game...The only difference was not reverting to a 1-3-1 when protecting the lead...we played the same man on man D zone coverage...

We played many games this year with a tight gap through the Neutral zone ....just not always and the difference is effort...

I'm glad that Randy is gone but it will be interesting to see how we play in the next little while...The Blue jackets give up a lot of shots and do not get lots of pucks to the net
...The Islanders out shot them 40 to 18 the next night...

 

[zeke]

What is laughable is you believing that the coach in two games has made a change to the system the leafs play....

What's laughable is that you can speak so much and so loudly about hockey yet are unable to see blatantly obvious changes in tactics.

 

[WilliamNylander]

What is laughable is you believing that the coach in two games has made a change to the system the leafs play...When the Leafs coach himself said that he would not change the systems....

I saw the same systems ....With effort we played several games such as the last game...The only difference was not reverting to a 1-3-1 when protecting the lead...we played the same man on man D zone coverage...

We played many games this year with a tight gap through the Neutral zone ....just not always and the difference is effort...

I'm glad that Randy is gone but it will be interesting to see how we play in the next little while...The Blue jackets give up a lot of shots and do not get lots of pucks to the net
...The Islanders out shot them 40 to 18 the next night...

Just try watching one of the games. You can watch them on game center if you have it from Rogers.

The leafs look completely different. They actually forecheck now. Gap control is way better. Defenseman are pinching a lot more. They do not give up the blueline as easily as under Randy.

The biggest change is the way they are protecting leads now. Randy was always play it "safe" dump and change, etc. but Horachek knows and has said playing it safe is NOT how you protect a lead.

To me, and many others, there are some seriously obvious system changes. I understand if you missed both games, but you should try and find a way to check out highlights or something and actually pay attention to positioning, etc. Its really hard not to notice a difference

 

[Mystifo]

Just try watching one of the games. You can watch them on game center if you have it from Rogers.

The leafs look completely different. They actually forecheck now. Gap control is way better. Defenseman are pinching a lot more. They do not give up the blueline as easily as under Randy.

The biggest change is the way they are protecting leads now. Randy was always play it "safe" dump and change, etc. but Horachek knows and has said playing it safe is NOT how you protect a lead.

To me, and many others, there are some seriously obvious system changes. I understand if you missed both games, but you should try and find a way to check out highlights or something and actually pay attention to positioning, etc. Its really hard not to notice a difference

Rarely do I agree with Diceman but I am going to need a bigger sample than 2 games to admit this team is changing under Horachek. I mean things have looked good so far but again it is only two games. In 10 or even 20 games I may have a better indicator of if this team can consistently put forth a sound effort.

 

[PanniniClaus]

I just can't say anything for certain until i see more. What i did see was a line shuffle and some deserving increases in minutes for some and a reduction for others.

 

[zeke]

Rarely do I agree with Diceman but I am going to need a bigger sample than 2 games to admit this team is changing under Horachek. I mean things have looked good so far but again it is only two games. In 10 or even 20 games I may have a better indicator of if this team can consistently put forth a sound effort.

Whether or not the changes work longterm is a different question than whether or not changes have been made....because changes have clearly been made.

Now we see whether they last.

 

[zeke]

Mark Masters @markhmasters
Horachek disputed idea changes to structure he's instituting aren't that substantial: "It's different"

 

[diceman934]

Just try watching one of the games. You can watch them on game center if you have it from Rogers.

The leafs look completely different. They actually forecheck now. Gap control is way better. Defenseman are pinching a lot more. They do not give up the blueline as easily as under Randy.

The biggest change is the way they are protecting leads now. Randy was always play it "safe" dump and change, etc. but Horachek knows and has said playing it safe is NOT how you protect a lead.

To me, and many others, there are some seriously obvious system changes. I understand if you missed both games, but you should try and find a way to check out highlights or something and actually pay attention to positioning, etc. Its really hard not to notice a difference

Funny....I have worked as a paid coach for many years...I know what I'm watching.. do you know why the gap is tighter in the neutral zone? I posted that they played with a tight gap.....I also posted that they have at other times this year.

Tell me what is the name of the Leafs d zone system and explain the rotations...I will be impressed if you could even understand the basic rotation...

ZEKE same goes for you...I will wait to see if you as well know what you are watching.

I stated that the Leafs did not go to their normal 1-3-1 to protect the lead and that they stayed with a high 2-1-2 and a 1-2-2 depending on possession.

You do know they I can play a 2-1-2 and so can you and they will look different?

One more question...when do you read a 2-1-2 forecheck vs a 1-2-2? It is a very easy question..

I will see if you can come up with the answers...

 

[zeke]

If you haven't noticed three major changes than you have no business being a paid coach.

1. Dmen stepping up on the opposing forwards as they cross their own blue line instead of falling back to their own blue line conceding the center line.
2. Players providing side outlets in the middle of the ice to our puck carrier in our own zone, instead of staying ahead of him on the boards.
3. Our dmen using those middle ice targets as breakout option A instead of the half boards.

Clear and obvious changes.

 

[KPower]

If you haven't noticed three major changes than you have no business being a paid coach.

1. Dmen stepping up on the opposing forwards as they cross their own blue line instead of falling back to their own blue line conceding the center line.
2. Players providing side outlets in the middle of the ice to our puck carrier in our own zone, instead of staying ahead of him on the boards.
3. Our dmen using those middle ice targets as breakout option A instead of the half boards.

Clear and obvious changes.

You will be calling for Horachek's head after the west coast trip.

 

[Paradoc]

If you haven't noticed three major changes than you have no business being a paid coach.

1. Dmen stepping up on the opposing forwards as they cross their own blue line instead of falling back to their own blue line conceding the center line.
2. Players providing side outlets in the middle of the ice to our puck carrier in our own zone, instead of staying ahead of him on the boards.
3. Our dmen using those middle ice targets as breakout option A instead of the half boards.

Clear and obvious changes.

To add more in Zeke's point.

The sample size of six periods isn’t much to go on, but given how frequently the Leafs leaned upon Bernier under Carlyle’s direction, how little they possessed the puck and how much they broke defensively, the two games are obviously an encouraging start.
“I think we’re doing a lot more of the little things,” Phil Kessel said. “We’re playing [a] better two-way game, we’re not giving up as many shots and as many chances and when you do that, you’re going to win a lot of games.”

“We’re bumping pucks to the middle more than rimming it around the wall and it’s letting us get out of our zone cleaner,” Bozak said

Bernier, meanwhile, observed a push to have a tighter presence around the net. He noted how the wingers were playing lower in the defensive zone, not jumping out as far at opposing defenceman.
“They want them to be really tight to the net, so I think it helps us to break the puck out easier,” he said.

Systems aside, Carlyle never could achieve the necessary defensive commitment of the group. That was especially true of Kessel and some of the team’s top offensive weaponry, who sacrificed defence in the name of offence. Horachek dismissed the idea that those players were incapable of playing to a tighter brand.
“Every guy in the world’s capable of doing that,” he said. “It’s all about how much you want to do that. We’re trying to pull everybody into the circle and everybody wants to be in the circle.”

http://www.tsn.ca/horachek-quickly-changing-how-maple-leafs-are-run-1.180326

 

[X66]

The Leafs fired that stubborn ape Carlyle far too late.

It's tied Horacheck's hands with a team stuck in no man's land in the standings.

He's off to a great start though, it's going to take time but at least Carlyle is long gone.

 

[diceman934]

If you haven't noticed three major changes than you have no business being a paid coach.

1. Dmen stepping up on the opposing forwards as they cross their own blue line instead of falling back to their own blue line conceding the center line.
2. Players providing side outlets in the middle of the ice to our puck carrier in our own zone, instead of staying ahead of him on the boards.
3. Our dmen using those middle ice targets as breakout option A instead of the half boards.

Clear and obvious changes.

So you can not answer my questions!

1)Those things are not system changes at all.....but effort. The fact that are D can challenge in the neutral zone or at our blue line is not a system change....it is buy in..when your forwards backcheck, the D man can challenge as they have support to do so if a puck is chipped past them. Without a back checking forward D man have to protect the ice behind them..and can not defend the ice in front of them. Hockey players need to make reads of support before they can react....read and react, have you heard that term before....If you read support you can be more aggressive. Like I said the changes you saw were effort based, and not changes. We have always been aggressive at the offensive blue line, hence all the odd man rushes against. We simply had a backcheck and our high forwards staying high.

Like I said all the changes you saw against the BlueJackets were effort based...we were doing this earlier in the season...

2) Side outlets in the middle of the ice in our zone....my god what are you talking about....side outlets in the Middle of the ice??? Middle of the ice is the middle, side is the side.

What you saw was players providing options for a breakout for our puck carrier, something that was part of the system always....except that we had cheating forwards who were looking to transition the puck up ice before the D man or center had gained possession.

3) Do you realize that as a puck carrier in our zone you pass to the open player....what you seen again was our players buying in and providing options to the puck carrier....you hit the open option and if the opposition is coming hard down the wall you use the middle of the ice option....if the opposition cheats to the middle ice you use the boards option. It is a moving target and part of a hockey game that is changing as the game goes on....nothing systematic about this.


Now answer the questions I asked you....because if you can not this debate is pointless as I can not debate with a person who has no idea of what they are watching!

 

[X66]

I've notice the D pinch more in the neutral zone and offensive zone(aggressive play), that has nothing to do with effort IMO.

I've also noticed breakout plays, also has nothing to do with effort.

Even if the effort has improved, I'll credit the coach who doesn't say "it's not my job to motivate you"

Carlyle was primitive.

 

[diceman934]

To add more in Zeke's point.


Look at the parts that I bolded....sure supports my claims.

Quote:
The sample size of six periods isn’t much to go on, but given how frequently the Leafs leaned upon Bernier under Carlyle’s direction, how little they possessed the puck and how much they broke defensively, the two games are obviously an encouraging start.
“I think we’re doing a lot more of the little things,†Phil Kessel said. “We’re playing [a] better two-way game, we’re not giving up as many shots and as many chances and when you do that, you’re going to win a lot of games.â€

Sure sounds like effort to me!

Bernier, meanwhile, observed a push to have a tighter presence around the net. He noted how the wingers were playing lower in the defensive zone, not jumping out as far at opposing defenceman.
“They want them to be really tight to the net, so I think it helps us to break the puck out easier,†he said.

Carlyle system to a tee.....without the cheating forwards...

Systems aside, Carlyle never could achieve the necessary defensive commitment of the group. That was especially true of Kessel and some of the team’s top offensive weaponry, who sacrificed defence in the name of offence. Horachek dismissed the idea that those players were incapable of playing to a tighter brand.
“Every guy in the world’s capable of doing that,†he said. “It’s all about how much you want to do that. We’re trying to pull everybody into the circle and everybody wants to be in the circle.â€

That is my point....it is all effort based, no surprise at all, I know every can do, but this group have proven that they only are willing to do so at times....and that is not a system change but, desire and will, something that this group has not shown a long term commitment to...Polak stated the same thing!

 

[pooleboy]

When fans stop having blind love/caring for this team they will do much better. Leafs don't care because they have fans like these ones in this thread coming to their aid every single game.

This team has made the playoffs once in the last decade and have been the laughing stock of the league for years now......if your not a little upset about that then maybe its u that should rethink wut ur talking about

 

[mashedpotato]

When fans stop having blind love/caring for this team they will do much better. Leafs don't care because they have fans like these ones in this thread coming to their aid every single game.

This team has made the playoffs once in the last decade and have been the laughing stock of the league for years now......if your not a little upset about that then maybe its u that should rethink wut ur talking about

That's just insane talk.

First off, the Leaf's popularity has been strong contrary to the belief that less care/love will equal more success; particularly through the last ... twenty years. If it hasn't happened yet I wouldn't hold my breath.

Secondly, there's no indication that the org. isn't trying to win; that's not to say they're horrible at their attempts but they're still attempts. They make signings and draft as well as they can - I mean this in the most honest regard, I believe management is truly trying. The on-ice product just .... sucks.

My guess is that because the Leafs have time (team isn't being pressured to go anywhere) / money (team has plenty of it); they believe they can afford to 'try' things and gamble.

None of this is because they believe that they'll lose the fanbase - or any fragment of it.

 

[Guy Boucher]

I stated that the Leafs did not go to their normal 1-3-1 to protect the lead and that they stayed with a high 2-1-2 and a 1-2-2 depending on possession.

The Leafs have never used a 1-3-1, not with Carlyle or Horachek. And neither of them have used a 2-1-2.

Both coaches - like nearly all NHL teams - have only used the 1-2-2. The difference has been in how much more aggressive the 1-2-2 is under Horachek, and how much deeper and faster F1 attacks the defender on the forecheck.

The other changes have had nothing to do with the forecheck...they've been about set breakout plays and neutral zone adjustments.