New System, New Stats, New Expectations

[diceman934]

The Leafs have never used a 1-3-1, not with Carlyle or Horachek. And neither of them have used a 2-1-2.

Both coaches - like nearly all NHL teams - have only used the 1-2-2. The difference has been in how much more aggressive the 1-2-2 is under Horachek, and how much deeper and faster F1 attacks the defender on the forecheck.

The other changes have had nothing to do with the forecheck...they've been about set breakout plays and neutral zone adjustments.

Please...2-1-2 is used by the Leafs! It is used by all teams.....Carlyle used a 1-3-1 when protecting a lead....

I will go into more detail after the two posters attempt to answer my questions.

 

[Guy Boucher]

Please...2-1-2 is used by the Leafs! It is used by all teams.....Carlyle used a 1-3-1 when protecting a lead....

I will go into more detail after the two posters attempt to answer my questions.

No, they don't and no, he didn't.

I don't think you understand systems as much as you're pretending to.

 

[zeke]

aches - like nearly all NHL teams - have only used the 1-2-2. The difference has been in how much more aggressive the 1-2-2 is under Horachek, and how much deeper and faster F1 attacks the defender on the forecheck.
.

yep which is why IMO talking about formations is mostly useless. Two teams can play a 1-2-2 but be employing completely opposite tactics.

Though I'm not sure I agree that F1 is doing much different, but probably looks that way thanks to more directed dump-ins and now being backed up by a much more aggressive F2/F3 and especially the 2 D.

I could be wrong there though.

 

[diceman934]

No, they don't and no, he didn't.

I don't think you understand systems as much as you're pretending to.

LOL. ...you are so wrong it is laughable. ...on the forecheck....2-1-2 is used when your opponent has not established possession. Meaning two things....D man going back for the puck is going to be in a puck battle and once that read is made by the F2 he follows the F1 and comes for the puck as F1 is going for body....you see this every game....it is a read off a 1-2-1.

The other read is that the D man has not established possession....do you know when a D man has established possession...

The read by F2 is different as he has to make two decisions will F 1 steer the D man up the wall or will he steer the D man towards his net...if so the F2 may make a contain read and let the steer man F1 decide and react off of what he does.

 

[X66]

Diceman, do you notice more aggressive D-pinches in the neutral zone and offensive zone?

 

[WinB4IDIE]

I can't speak for Drew but when I know the idiots and chicken littles will be out in force, I tend to wait it out because that level of insanity and foolishness just wears on you. Some of us follow hockey as a relief from every day world stressors. We don't need to have bipolar madness in that world.

You use the Leafs as a stress relief from every day world? What in the name of god do you do for a living Lion taming??

 

[diceman934]

Diceman, do you notice more aggressive D-pinches in the neutral zone and offensive zone?

Yes. ...it was because of the backcheck that the D man can make those reads....The system did not change ....The effort did....I posted all of this in this thread all ready...

If a d man reads support he can be much more aggressive...

We have pinched all year down the wall in the Defensive zone and as a result gave up odd man rushes as we did not have the forwards supporting the pinch..

 

[TeamBester]

Yes. ...it was because of the backcheck that the D man can make those reads....The system did not change ....The effort did....I posted all of this in this thread all ready...

If a d man reads support he can be much more aggressive...

We have pinched all year down the wall in the Defensive zone and as a result gave up odd man rushes as we did not have the forwards supporting the pinch..

Wrong.

Horachek wouldn’t deny his hurried attempts to change the product, pushing for less “cheating†toward offence and more structure in positioning in all three zones. He's talked often already about a 5-5-5 approach, all five guys working cohesively together. Structure was evident in a thorough 5-2 win over the Blue Jackets, just the third victory in 11 games for the Leafs.

“No, it’s different,†he said of systemic adjustments. “There’s some differences and there’s a difference in how we approach it and a difference in positioning. We want to keep focused on doing it together. It doesn’t matter what system you do, you can do any system you want, [but] if you don’t do it together it won’t work. If you do it togethr, it can work.â€

 

[WilliamNylander]

Diceman obviously knows more about coaching than Horachek

It's clearly different, not huge changes but there are some pretty noticeable ones...and no its not "effort" lol. These are NHLers, they don't just give 50% effort some nights and 100% effort other nights.

 

[buttman*]

Can we, as a forum community, come together and understand that each and every individual will be asked to be doing DRASTICALLY different things under Horachek than under Randy Carlyle?

Can we, as a forum community, come together and understand that this will lead to different players doing different things, which will bring different outcomes on the ice?

Can we, as a forum community, come together and understand that this will change the negative stats that have piled up in the first 40 games?

Can we, as a forum community, come together start to evaluate the team based on what they're being asked to do, now, and not what they were being asked to do before?

Win, or lose, this team will be different than the one Randy Carlyle iced. As a true fan of this team, a bit of an optimist, and one who cant stand the volumes of negativity and unnecessary BS that people spout off, can we please start to evaluate the NEW Toronto Maple Leafs after their surgery?

Think of the firing of RC like a Breast Augmentation Surgery. We look better, and hopefully we perform better too. So lets stop talking about the saggy-ness and ugliness of the past. The team got some confidence back. A little more pep, a better attitude and a whole lot more pleasing to watch as well.

We are the NEW and IMPROVED Toronto Maple Leafs. Let's talk about them as such, let's evaluate them as such. Please.

Can we, as a forum community, come together and please stop repeating "Can we, as a forum community, come together and understand"

 

[diceman934]

Diceman obviously knows more about coaching than Horachek

It's clearly different, not huge changes but there are some pretty noticeable ones...and no its not "effort" lol. These are NHLers, they don't just give 50% effort some nights and 100% effort other nights.

So can you answer the questions I asked of you or not....no need to resort to personal attacks...

These NHL players have not gave 100% effort every night....no where near that.

I have clearly explain the difference...As they are effort based and not a change of systems..

So answer the questions I asked of you or admit that you can not..

 

[diceman934]

I wonder what will happen to these big system changes that claim they have seen yet can't explain a basic question when the players stop working hard....we will give up lots of shots against like always....it's the players and not systems

 

[hfdshdh]

As far as I can tell, the forecheck is more or less the same 2-1-2 spread it was under Carlyle, with some minor tweaks. The defensive zone coverage is the same. Breakouts have been tweaked, but more than anything they've just stopped constantly rimming it around the boards or making hopeless hail mary passes in favour of using the middle of the ice to break out of the zone as a unit, with control of the puck.

I think diceman is right that there haven't been any fundamental systemic changes. They just seem more prepared, like they're playing with a more aggressive mentality, while Horachek's been much smarter managing the lineup and making adjustments on the fly.

 

[diceman934]

As far as I can tell, the forecheck is more or less the same 2-1-2 spread it was under Carlyle, with some minor tweaks. The defensive zone coverage is the same. Breakouts have been tweaked, but more than anything they've just stopped constantly rimming it around the boards or making hopeless hail mary passes in favour of using the middle of the ice to break out of the zone as a unit, with control of the puck.

I think diceman is right that there haven't been any fundamental systemic changes. They just seem more prepared, like they're playing with a more aggressive mentality, while Horachek's been much smarter managing the lineup and making adjustments on the fly.

The funny thing is that the people who were so sure that we were using only a 1-2-2 never came back to say I told you so after watching the game as it was so obvious that we are using a 2-1-2 as we always have.

They are getting buy in which should not surprise anyone with all the media attention on them. I do like the ice time allotment of the players and I can see it changing even more.

Panik is the coaches pet and I am not sure that he is worthy of the ice time!

 

[diceman934]

Horachek’s message to his players heading into the All-Star break, which ends Jan. 26, was this:

"The first periods are unacceptable. If we are going to become a better team, we have to learn to play 60-minute hockey and to play a whole game. We can’t play like this and expect we’re going to be getting better and moving up the ladder.

"You have to look yourself in the mirror and decide this is the way we want to be. If we want to be a better team we have to start working from the beginning of the game to the end of the game and make it hard to play against [us]."

Change the name to Carlyle and it is the same old message...

The Leafs have stopped buying in and last night and the night before was very obvious with all the old man rushes against and being on the wrong side of the puck....

 

[Faltorvo]

Can we, as a forum community, come together and understand that each and every individual will be asked to be doing DRASTICALLY different things under Horachek than under Randy Carlyle?

Can we, as a forum community, come together and understand that this will lead to different players doing different things, which will bring different outcomes on the ice?

Can we, as a forum community, come together and understand that this will change the negative stats that have piled up in the first 40 games?

Can we, as a forum community, come together start to evaluate the team based on what they're being asked to do, now, and not what they were being asked to do before?

Win, or lose, this team will be different than the one Randy Carlyle iced. As a true fan of this team, a bit of an optimist, and one who cant stand the volumes of negativity and unnecessary BS that people spout off, can we please start to evaluate the NEW Toronto Maple Leafs after their surgery?

Think of the firing of RC like a Breast Augmentation Surgery. We look better, and hopefully we perform better too. So lets stop talking about the saggy-ness and ugliness of the past. The team got some confidence back. A little more pep, a better attitude and a whole lot more pleasing to watch as well.

We are the NEW and IMPROVED Toronto Maple Leafs. Let's talk about them as such, let's evaluate them as such. Please.

You can't be for real, are you?

Jfj jr gone, lets reset the clock
peddie gone ----------
Quinn gone-------
Maurice gone-----
fletch gone-------
teachers pension fund gone------
Wilson gone -------
burke gone -------
lieweekly gone ------
carlyles gone --------

keep in mind this was what? over the last 7/8 years?

this organisation has not earned anymore clock resets.

 

[diceman934]

I'm bumping this thread one more time.....just to remind people that nothing has changed....we are still giving up far to many changes and prime scoring chances.....our forwards are leaving the zone early and we look horrible.

I said the systems had not changed....there is a poster or two that have disappeared since posting nonsense in this thread....and one of them who does this all the time....

Start watching the games with a different mind set and you will start to see the game a little different. Look at the small parts of the game...Details and stop only watching the puck.

I wanted Carlyle gone but I'm here to say, that unless we get rid of the garbage the team will still stink.

Players that in my opinion are must goes:
Dion
Kessel
Bozak
JVR

One is stupid and the others lazy beyond repair!

 

[Wafflewhipper]

It's still going to time to shake off the grime of Carlyle, but they're off to a good start.

I like how Horacheck states that he doesn't like prevent style hockey when having the Lead, one of Carlyle's biggest problems, and he had a lot of them.

Hey ma,are we there yet?

 

[AustonMitchWilly]

Ah well. I'll be optimistic at every turn in leaf land. Part of loving the blue and white I guess.

 

[Guy Boucher]

If anything, it's now clearly proven that surrendering 40+ shots with regularity was a product of Carlyle's system.

And the notion that the system hasn't changed is laughable considering Horachek called it "a significant change", every player has spoken about the changes to the system, and frankly you have to be blind if you don't see that there are significant changes in our the team breaks out of the zone, and defends the neutral zone.

Are there a whole myriad of issues with this team outside of coaching? Yes. But coaching was also a problem, and now we can clearly evaluate the players.

Players like Bozak who previously hide with ease under Carlyle, now standouts in a system that requires all 5 players to support each other through the neutral zone and in the offensive zone.

 

[soulie]

If this team can make the playoffs all is forgiven and I will remove and destroy my Tank Commander badge...

Good old Tank Commander badge why do I ever doubt you.....