Pre-Game Talk: New lines for tonights game (Glendenning down, XO up in case Big E can't go)

[Heaton]

I'm fine with Weiss moving down, it definitely helped Alfredsson's game. Let him get used to the system, then he'll be back centering the 2nd line no problem.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Stephen Weiss, signed in the off-season to be the club’s second-line center, is off to a rough start with just two points (both goals) and a minus-3 rating in nine games.

He was bumped down to the third line for tonight’s game. He’ll center Tomas Tatar and Daniel Cleary.

“The first thing you have to do when you come to a new place is you have to breathe, and you have to give yourself a break, and you have to spend no time thinking and spend all your time playing,’’ Babcock said. “That’s easy for me to say, but when you come in and get off to a good start and three bounce in off your leg and you get rolling, you relax. And when you don’t, you pressure up.

“So what I’ve done is I took him off the power play, put him on the penalty kill, and put him in the three-hole and he can play against (Joe) Pavelski all night tonight. That will be a battle in itself. And just look after defense, and once he settles down the rest will come.”

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/10/red_wings_prospect_xavier_ouel.html

 

[Kronwalled55]

I think Weiss has been better than he's getting credit for. He's been hit or miss, but I've liked what I've seen from him.

 

[Chance on Chance]

How much stock do you put in these 'stats' though? I've watched games where players get 4-5 blocked shots but only 1 'official' blocked shot.

It can go both ways thoug, sometimes I look and it says a player had 8 hits and there no way. AND Sometimes I think different rinks have different criteria for shots. 2nd assists in this leage are sometimes randomly rewarded

 

[detredWINgs]

How much stock do you put in these 'stats' though? I've watched games where players get 4-5 blocked shots but only 1 'official' blocked shot.

Are they accurate? Of course not. Are they a good reference point? Sure.

And for what its worth, Tatar's only game came on enemy ice...

 

[TKB]

But is it possible he is not full of BS, and his point is right? Tatar turns it over more than cleary? Sounds wrong right?... well we should measure this stat, not turnovers, but last to touch the puck before SJ. Would be interesting to see the results.

Who wants to do it?

I am not turning this into a defense of Cleary, but keep in mind MB is going to be looking for a different set of skills or attributes from Cleary than a guy like Tatar or Nyquist.

That doesn't mean it is okay for Cleary and Abdelkader to turn it over, it does mean that there are guys on a line who will be expected to be the puck movers and guys who will be there to play in front of the net and retrieve pucks in the corner.

If you want to track something meaningful keep a +/- for quality scoring chances and penalties taken/drawn.

 

[detredWINgs]

I am not turning this into a defense of Cleary, but keep in mind MB is going to be looking for a different set of skills or attributes from Cleary than a guy like Tatar or Nyquist.

That doesn't mean it is okay for Cleary and Abdelkader to turn it over, it does mean that there are guys on a line who will be expected to be the puck movers and guys who will be there to play in front of the net and retrieve pucks in the corner.

If you want to track something meaningful keep a +/- for quality scoring chances and penalties taken/drawn.

To the contrary, I think the fact that Babcock is looking for a very SIMILAR set of skills/attributes from Tatar/Nyquist as he is from Cleary is where the problem lies.

 

[detredWINgs]

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/10/red_wings_prospect_xavier_ouel.html


“So what I’ve done is I took him off the power play, put him on the penalty kill, and put him in the three-hole and he can play against (Joe) Pavelski all night tonight. That will be a battle in itself. And just look after defense, and once he settles down the rest will come.â€

I have no problem with demoting Weiss or taking him off the PP (for the time being), but this kind of illustrates one thing I hate about Babcock's line of thinking: Somehow, being good defensively is the key to being successful offensively. This is why, IMO, Smith is laboring away on the PK instead of the PP. In Babcock's world, being good on the PK...means you're ready for the PP...

Sure, that may work for some players, but in no way is it a "one size fits all" tactic.

 

[TKB]

To the contrary, I think the fact that Babcock is looking for a very SIMILAR set of skills/attributes from Tatar/Nyquist as he is from Cleary is where the problem lies.

Let me clarify then:

Dan Cleary and Justin Abdelkader are not the guys that MB would prefer to move the puck through the nuetral zone and over the line.

He will likely have a higher tolerance of mistakes from 8 and 71 because they have proven to bring other attributes (at least to MB, I am not worried about HF's opinion)to the table.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

I'm fine with Weiss moving down, it definitely helped Alfredsson's game. Let him get used to the system, then he'll be back centering the 2nd line no problem.

Alfie had like 1 point on the 3rd line. What helped Alfie was the PP finishing and getting a game and a period on the top line. Almost all of his points are with 13 and 40 on the ice. It's pretty much as simple as that.

 

[odin1981]

If you consider being a puck black hole then yes they have other attributes. But I don't see how that is a positive contribution. Oh wait I forgot couldn't forget taking offensive zone penalties to that either. Oh and don't forget falling over your own skates 10x a game. But wait thats not it we have to add in being slower than molasses is "being heavy" on the puck.

 

[BinCookin]

If you consider being a puck black hole then yes they have other attributes. But I don't see how that is a positive contribution. Oh wait I forgot couldn't forget taking offensive zone penalties to that either. Oh and don't forget falling over your own skates 10x a game. But wait thats not it we have to add in being slower than molasses is "being heavy" on the puck.

I will also try to do this for Tatar vs Cleary.

I'll keep track of whatever I can, we can compare.

 

[TKB]

How much stock do you put in these 'stats' though? I've watched games where players get 4-5 blocked shots but only 1 'official' blocked shot.

The "Real Time" stats are virtually worthless.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

How much stock do you put in these 'stats' though? I've watched games where players get 4-5 blocked shots but only 1 'official' blocked shot.

It varies. But in general, they are pretty good indicators, especially when comparing within a team.
Wouldn't put much into Tatar's one game though.
I remember the turnover at the blueline late in the Bruins game.
But I also remember Tatar winning a loose puck battle and centering it out front for Miller, who couldn't bury it.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Am I the only one who completely despises this lineup? It's awful. Franzen is not a center at this point of his career, he doesn't have the defensive ability or legs/speed to anchor a line. Abdelkader is on the top line again, despite the success of it WITHOUT him on it. And now Ouellet will probably have to play with Brendan Smith, which is just a disaster waiting to happen. XO could be great, but he's inexperienced. Putting him with a guy like Smith that makes mistake after mistake will really do wonders for someone trying to get their feet wet. It's bad enough XO will be playing a very talented and rolling lineup in SJ.

Line 2 is risky. It could go either way. Alfie could set up Franzen for a goal or two. Or the line of lead feet might get eaten up.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Alfie had like 1 point on the 3rd line. What helped Alfie was the PP finishing and getting a game and a period on the top line. Almost all of his points are with 13 and 40 on the ice. It's pretty much as simple as that.

Yep.
100 percent right.
The line of Cleary-Andersson-Alfie was pretty worthless

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Are the Wings really going to be destroyed by THIS lineup?

Tyler Kennedy – Logan Couture – Patrick Marleau
Tomas Hertl – Joe Thornton – Freddie Hamilton
Matt Nieto – Joe Pavelski – Tommy Wingels
James Sheppard – Andrew Desjardins – Matt Pelech

I'll grant them Marleau and Hertl, but that's just not much talent on the wing. The only other guys making noise are Nieto and Wingels. There are a whole lot of Clearys and Abdelkaders in that lineup.

No surprise Babcock moved to spread out his center depth.

 

[Heaton]

Alfie had like 1 point on the 3rd line. What helped Alfie was the PP finishing and getting a game and a period on the top line. Almost all of his points are with 13 and 40 on the ice. It's pretty much as simple as that.

I'm talking specifically about how they were playing, before moving down to the 3rd line Alfredsson was struggling. A few games there and some success on the PP and he looks completely different.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I'm talking specifically about how they were playing, before moving down to the 3rd line Alfredsson was struggling. A few games there and some success on the PP and he looks completely different.

The move to line 3 had nothing to do with his improved PP production

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

I dont even know where to start. I am finding this debate very funny overall though.

Tatar might turn the puck over more. The reason is he would get the damm thing on his stick more. Ok case closed.

Cleary is useless still with 2 minutes left logging the long minutes and causing a penalty or a turnover because he cant skate and will fall down is cleary mike's real gudness.

I have been patient with Mike. Yet to say at this point he is playing the best defensive team and we are giving up 32 shots a game tells me there has to be better than that.

If not we are gonna wind up sixth this year. Out of the playoffs and wondering where the hell it all went wrong.

Can we compete with anyone? Even with the injuries? Yes.

Until Mike decides to use lines that will work and have three lines that can gel and score and puck possession etc.. Nope not going to work.

If we turn the puck over like we did last game is not gonna be a 5-2 loss. Will be hugely devastatingly worse.

I said we can win a cup this year. We can but not till we switch it up and mix it up better.

To those wanting tatar and nyquist together on line two that wont work defensively either.

We got to mix up lines got to have a body on each. Or two great puck possession guys etc.. can get away with moving bert and weiss to third franzen abby datsyuk tatar alfie zette etc...

is only way this works. nyquist if can get up can be with bert and weiss and got three scoring lines with some great skill or size.

This will work what we are doing is sick to watch.

 

[kuick]

I think Weiss has been better than he's getting credit for. He's been hit or miss, but I've liked what I've seen from him.

Same thoughts. It makes a lot of sense to beef up the third line if we're going to line match with San Jose. They're a deep squad. Don't think this will be long term, especially with Helm returning.

 

[TKB]

I dont even know where to start. I am finding this debate very funny overall though.

Tatar might turn the puck over more. The reason is he would get the damm thing on his stick more. Ok case closed.

Cleary is useless still with 2 minutes left logging the long minutes and causing a penalty or a turnover because he cant skate and will fall down is cleary mike's real gudness.

I have been patient with Mike. Yet to say at this point he is playing the best defensive team and we are giving up 32 shots a game tells me there has to be better than that.

If not we are gonna wind up sixth this year. Out of the playoffs and wondering where the hell it all went wrong.

Can we compete with anyone? Even with the injuries? Yes.

Until Mike decides to use lines that will work and have three lines that can gel and score and puck possession etc.. Nope not going to work.

If we turn the puck over like we did last game is not gonna be a 5-2 loss. Will be hugely devastatingly worse.

I said we can win a cup this year. We can but not till we switch it up and mix it up better.

To those wanting tatar and nyquist together on line two that wont work defensively either.

We got to mix up lines got to have a body on each. Or two great puck possession guys etc.. can get away with moving bert and weiss to third franzen abby datsyuk tatar alfie zette etc...

is only way this works. nyquist if can get up can be with bert and weiss and got three scoring lines with some great skill or size.

This will work what we are doing is sick to watch.

FTR, I am not saying this to pick a fight, just have some time on my hands this pm.

IMO Turnovers were not really the problem against Pho. The one turnover, was a puck that hit the linesman, and it happened while Smith was trying to get off for a needed change, which is why he was out of position.

2 other goals were a result of losing a faceoff,/ missed/switched assignments afterward but most importantly Andersson getting worked badly in front of the net.


Also the Wings have been giving up a lot of shots, but they are 4-4 in protecting leads of 2 or less late in the game. They did give up one against Boston late (while up by 2) but 71 was not on the ice.

Sure there is a lot to fix and this is a one line team right now......but they don't give out trophies in October. Just be happy that we are 6-3 despite the issues.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

I kinda like the new lines except of course Cleary on line 2.

TATAR!!!!! Too bad he'll be back in the press box once Helm returns Sat.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I kinda like the new lines except of course Cleary on line 2.

TATAR!!!!! Too bad he'll be back in the press box once Helm returns Sat.

Maybe not. If Tootoo goes, our 4th line might be Miller-Andersson-Tatar

 

[VladTheImpaler]

Hopefully the Sharks don't school out young D tonight. I do like these changes up front, though. Go Wings.