Pre-Game Talk: New lines for tonights game (Glendenning down, XO up in case Big E can't go)

[lilidk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA-HzaeCvaE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNvM45xbRt4

 

[Chance on Chance]

But not pertinent to Cleary or Abdelkader

Cleary is on a 100 foot steel chain when it comes to babs, Tatar on the other hand is on a 6 inch thread

 

[odin1981]

This idea that Tatar needs to be playing with more skill is silliness. Over time, in the long-run, sure, I agree, that's how he will add the most value. But at this stage, where the Wings are still trying to make him a complete player? No, you plug him in different spots, see how he reacts, and expose him to a variety of situations. This is good for Tatar's development.

Also sheer silliness is this whining about the teams Tatar has suited up against. It doesn't matter. This is the kind of thinking that meddling owners often have. Tatar has played pro for a long time, he's had a 28-game taste of the NHL already, he just won playoff MVP in the AHL.... if he needs to be protected from the better teams in the NHL at this point and eased in against weaker competition, then something is very wrong. And if the argument is that he's being set-up for failure because he won't look as good against better teams and then Babcock will have an easier time benching him again.... well, that's speculation based on nothing of substance.

I will agree that he should be used in more than one game in a row though. That gives him a better opportunity to elevate his game and therefor become more valuable.

The problem I have with this train of thought is fairly simple. Tatar is barely ever in the lineup and has 1 game to "find chemistry" with his linemates. I am also not one of the people saying he should get top 6 time. I am saying he should slot into a third line with at least one player that is a playmaker (alfie, nyquist, weiss whoever) that will help prove he can provide offense.

He plays decent defense atm. It is not his strong suit but he will improve at it the more he plays. Him getting 9 minutes against boston with no one on his line capable of playing a skill game with him is fool hardy. Then him getting scratched because it was literally impossible (due to line mates and lack of ice time) to provide anything.

Now he gets thrown into another game where to me its set up to fail. We are gonna get demolished on a pure possesion basis. We are in no way shape or form gonna win. Our defense is laughable. And weiss hasn't been too hot at all playmaking so far. Cleary is gonna give up the puck anytime he looks at the puck once again. And essentially every time the line is out their it is gonna be a penalty kill 5 vs 4 cause cleary is useless.

 

[TKB]

But not pertinent to Cleary or Abdelkader

I didn't post it as my personal comment simply providing the direct quote from MB. There seems to a lot of talk that these guys have no idea why there are not in the line-up or in Tatar's case sent back down last year.

I seem to recall a quote from Tatar acknowledging he was told he had to work on his puck management when went back down. IMO it would be silly to think that the MB quote above is not also applicable to Tatar.

I have seen Tatar play all of 10 minutes in my lifetime, so while I am excited and waiting "patiently" to see what he can do, I really can't offer much in terms of my opinion on his supposed mistakes/flaws versus those of Cleary and Abdelkader.

I suspect that part of the issue with Tatar is related to his play with out the puck as well. Abdelkader and Cleary have their warts, but generally speaking are good positionally.

The one thing that stuck out to me about Tatar from the Boston game (I don't hold a turnover at the blue line late in a game you are trailing against him) was that he seemed to have his stick up off the ice quite a bit. Which ironically enough used to be one of my biggest problems with Abdelkader.

There is understandably a lot of angst about the treatment of Tatar...but I would point out that there is an old coaching adage that you are toughest on the guys you expect the most from.

If they did not have plans for him they would have (or will) move him to clear the log jam. In the mean time my bet is that MB is pushing Tatar to be the best player he can be, and that process is not always pleasant.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

What I like is this:
3 lines capable of offensive pressure.
What I dislike is this: Abdelkader on line 1.
I'd switch Andersson and Abby.
Gives you less turnovers on line 1.
Gives you more punch on line 4.

 

[Heaton]

I really like these lines. I was a big fan of Alfredsson playing with Datsyuk and Z, but we gotta fix the other lines. Making Franzen a center always seems to give him some jump early on and it should help. Bertuzzi loves playing with Franzen and Alfredsson is the elite skill that they need. Weiss playing with Tatar should be great, I think Cleary is a waste of a roster spot still, but he's still experienced and moderately smart. Hopefully since he's been so brutal he'll move down to the 4th line eventually. I think the 4th line is really good too, Andersson should help with important faceoffs.

Not perfect, but much better than what we've seen.

 

[ashenhigh]

What I like is this:
3 lines capable of offensive pressure.
What I dislike is this: Abdelkader on line 1.
I'd switch Andersson and Abby.
Gives you less turnovers on line 1.
Gives you more punch on line 4.

How can you even be serious?

You want to throw Andersson, who's done absolutely nothing for us, on the top line against the hottest team in the league, to play with two linemates he has never skated with before? That makes so much sense man.

 

[Yzerman1919*]

If somehow some way Nyquist comes up (whenever that may be), would anyone be opposed to this...

Z-Pav-Abby
Nyquist/Tatar-Weiss-Bert
Franzen-Helm-Alfie
Cleary-Andy-Miller/Tootoo

Thats SOLID if you ask me. Nyquist/Helm/Tatar adds some youth and speed. All 3 lines can score, quite the third line if you ask me.

If BOTH Nyquist and Tatar were on the team, Miller/Tootoo would have to go,unless someone is injured

 

[InjuredChoker]

How can you even be serious?

You want to throw Andersson, who's done absolutely nothing for us, on the top line against the hottest team in the league, to play with two linemates he has never skated with before? That makes so much sense man.

andy is smart and can pass.

i wouldn't mind giving it a shot.

abby hasn't worked too well there. thought alfie was fine there but then other lines lack balance.

the problem with andy is that he's slow. i think he's ok at boards. compared to abby at least.

to me it's looking more and more like dats and z need big time shooter on that line. d and z can enter the zone. they can work around the boards, they can cycle, they can pass, everything. but neither has excellent shot. abby doesn't either.

 

[Yzerman1919*]

Z-Pav-Franzen
Tatar-Weiss-Alfie
Abby-Helm-Bert
Cleary-Andy-Tootoo/Miller

Wouldnt hate that

 

[jaster]

The problem I have with this train of thought is fairly simple. Tatar is barely ever in the lineup and has 1 game to "find chemistry" with his linemates.

You did read my last line in that post, right? I basically agree with this point of yours, Tatar should be playing more.

I am also not one of the people saying he should get top 6 time. I am saying he should slot into a third line with at least one player that is a playmaker (alfie, nyquist, weiss whoever) that will help prove he can provide offense.

Eh, he's already proven he can provide offense, I don't think that should be a factor in him playing with an offensive player. It's more important that he rounds out his game. And then he can be given a more prominent offensive role. In the meantime, with his motor, and puckhandling, he can augment a 3rd or 4th line, whether those lines have a skill player or not. Tatar is actually a fairly versatile player in that regard.

He plays decent defense atm. It is not his strong suit but he will improve at it the more he plays. Him getting 9 minutes against boston with no one on his line capable of playing a skill game with him is fool hardy. Then him getting scratched because it was literally impossible (due to line mates and lack of ice time) to provide anything.

Now he gets thrown into another game where to me its set up to fail. We are gonna get demolished on a pure possesion basis. We are in no way shape or form gonna win. Our defense is laughable. And weiss hasn't been too hot at all playmaking so far. Cleary is gonna give up the puck anytime he looks at the puck once again. And essentially every time the line is out their it is gonna be a penalty kill 5 vs 4 cause cleary is useless.

This is all speculative pessimism Be patient. It's still early in the season. I'll bet Tatar has a fairly significant role by season's end. At least a lot more significant than right now.

 

[Yzerman1919*]

Man, DFC realllllly screwed us over didn't he...

 

[Vladdy84]

Man, DFC realllllly screwed us over didn't he...

Mike Babcock and Ken Holland did. Don't blame Cleary. He was offered a contract and signed it.

 

[BinCookin]

AK article from pre-game Saturday:
http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/10/red_wings_brendan_smith_focuse.html

“Play steady, make a good first pass and compete hard,’’ Smith said before the game. “Play hard without the puck and play (well) with the puck. Those are the things Coach wants to see, and make sure I play steady and safe, then I’ll get myself back in the lineup, playing regular top minutes.’’

Coach Mike Babcock said the former first-round pick’s erratic play with the puck got him benched in favor of Brian Lashoff the past four games.

“The question I ask all the time to players is ‘Who has the puck when you’re done with the puck?’ ’’ Babcock said. “When it’s the other team all the time, pretty soon you’re not playing anymore.’’


To me it is pretty clear that the last quote is likely pertinent to the Tatar situation as well...

This would be an interesting thing to TRY and measure ourselves.. maybe just for the SJ game.

Keep close stats on Cleary, Tatar, Franzen and just for fun Datsyuk.

I.E. before any SJ player touches the puck... who was the last red wing to touch it?

Would be interesting to see the results of that. Even safe "clears" into the zone for a line change should count. Because i often see datsyuk circle and pass to the d-men before his line change. I often see Franzen safely dump it to the opposing team D.

Maybe this will help us get in Babcocks head.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Great news. Abdelkader was needed to spark to the top line. You gotta feel bad for Weiss though. He's the one getting punished.
Franzen too.

 

[detredWINgs]

Excited to see Kisses and Hugs in the lineup. Been hearing about him for a while now, but haven't seen much of him...

..And is Franzen confirmed to be the 2nd line center tonight? I'd be happy to see that. He seems to be much more involved when he plays at center.

 

[odin1981]

This would be an interesting thing to TRY and measure ourselves.. maybe just for the SJ game.

Keep close stats on Cleary, Tatar, Franzen and just for fun Datsyuk.

I.E. before any phx player touches the puck... who was the last red wing to touch it?

Would be interesting to see the results of that. Even safe "clears" into the zone for a line change should count. Because i often see datsyuk circle and pass to the d-men before his line change. I often see Franzen safely dump it to the opposing team D.

Maybe this will help us get in Babcocks head.

If that where true why does cleary ever even see one shift of ice time?

Edit: It is just our overrated and useless head coach playing lip service. He is not a bad coach but his time is done with this team. Instead of challenging himself once lidas retired he just gave up and reverted to a playing style type that he prefers coaching instead of objectively looking at our roster and organizational makeup and figuring out what works best with the personnel we have.

 

[Frk It]

Excited to watch this lineup tonight!

 

[BinCookin]

If that where true why does cleary ever even see one shift of ice time?

Edit: It is just our overrated and useless head coach playing lip service. He is not a bad coach but his time is done with this team. Instead of challenging himself once lidas retired he just gave up and reverted to a playing style type that he prefers coaching instead of objectively looking at our roster and organizational makeup and figuring out what works best with the personnel we have.

But is it possible he is not full of BS, and his point is right? Tatar turns it over more than cleary? Sounds wrong right?... well we should measure this stat, not turnovers, but last to touch the puck before SJ. Would be interesting to see the results.

Who wants to do it?

 

[detredWINgs]

But is it possible he is not full of BS, and his point is right? Tatar turns it over more than cleary? Sounds wrong right?... well we should measure this stat, not turnovers, but last to touch the puck before SJ. Would be interesting to see the results.

Who wants to do it?

Interestingly, in the one game Tatar did play in, he had 0 giveaways and 2 hits.

Pretty epic when you consider that Andersson and Weiss each have 6 giveaways (with only 2 and 3 takeaways, respectively) and a whopping 1 hit in a 9 game span.

Edit: While perusing the stat sheet, I see that Quincey only has 3 hits in 9 games? Christ almighty.

Second Edit: And Datsyuk, Franzen, Alfredsson, and Bertuzzi all have more hits than Cleary??

 

[Heaton]

Interestingly, in the one game Tatar did play in, he had 0 giveaways and 2 hits.

Pretty epic when you consider that Andersson and Weiss each have 6 giveaways (with only 2 and 3 takeaways, respectively) and a whopping 1 hit in a 9 game span.

How much stock do you put in these 'stats' though? I've watched games where players get 4-5 blocked shots but only 1 'official' blocked shot.

 

[odin1981]

But is it possible he is not full of BS, and his point is right? Tatar turns it over more than cleary? Sounds wrong right?... well we should measure this stat, not turnovers, but last to touch the puck before SJ. Would be interesting to see the results.

Who wants to do it?

To prove babs typical ******** approach I will track specifically 2 players: tatar and cleary. I'll post results in the gdt after the game.


Edit: You will really make me hate this game by being unable to drink for this debacle of a game having to keep a somewhat accurate count of this.

 

[TKB]

This would be an interesting thing to TRY and measure ourselves.. maybe just for the SJ game.

Keep close stats on Cleary, Tatar, Franzen and just for fun Datsyuk.

I.E. before any SJ player touches the puck... who was the last red wing to touch it?

Would be interesting to see the results of that. Even safe "clears" into the zone for a line change should count. Because i often see datsyuk circle and pass to the d-men before his line change. I often see Franzen safely dump it to the opposing team D.

Maybe this will help us get in Babcocks head.

If you try to measure/quantify it yourself you will go crazy. There are just to many variables involved, and also being the last guy to touch the puck is not necessarily the key aspect.

If you take the puck and make a nice move or to only to deliver a hand grenade to your line mate or D-partner, that is not on him it is on you. (Though it is also incumbent on them to get to areas of the ice in which you can deliver them the puck instead of the grenade).

Rather than trying to track it yourself, just be wary of not getting mesmorized when a player or team makes a lot of slick moves and passes that don't really result in quality scoring opportunities (or extended possessions), but do result in a transition or rush for the other team (or failing to clear the zone).

 

[InjuredChoker]

Great news. Abdelkader was needed to spark to the top line. You gotta feel bad for Weiss though. He's the one getting punished.
Franzen too.

weiss has had 9 games in 2nd line. he's had his chance.

produce/play well or get demoted (doesn't apply to certain players)

weiss doesn't belong to any of those categories.

 

[Kronwalled55]

Am I the only one who completely despises this lineup? It's awful. Franzen is not a center at this point of his career, he doesn't have the defensive ability or legs/speed to anchor a line. Abdelkader is on the top line again, despite the success of it WITHOUT him on it. And now Ouellet will probably have to play with Brendan Smith, which is just a disaster waiting to happen. XO could be great, but he's inexperienced. Putting him with a guy like Smith that makes mistake after mistake will really do wonders for someone trying to get their feet wet. It's bad enough XO will be playing a very talented and rolling lineup in SJ.