NBA Hints at Future Expansion

[qwerty]

Montreal can barely fill an arena when they are mediocre? Umm what? it's the largest arena in the league at nearly 22,000 and those games for which they did not sell out still had around 20,000 people attending Canadiens games. It's not something to be concerned about considering the team has rarely been a legit Stanley Cup contender the past 2 decades, have some of the highest ticket prices in the league and have been a top-2 or 3 revenue for as long as we can remember despite a .75 Cndn dollar.

Vancouver has averaged 18,000 or more per game while rebuilding. They are still a top ten revenue team in the NHL despite stagnant ticket prices and a .75 dollar. Your "Vancouver looks Florida-esque" comment is ill-informed and foolish.

Vancouver Canucks [NHL] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com

Vancouver has 2.5 million in the metro, another 500,000 in the Fraser Valley and another 750,000 on the island. They currently have one team in the big-4 sports leagues. Montreal has 4 million in its metro and another couple million within 2 hours drive. They also only have one big-4 pro sports team.

Both markets are underserved and both would do as well or better than many proposed cities (ie. Kansas already saturated with Chiefs and Royals and little growth, barely 2 million, Louisville - small and half the size of Vancouver) and current cities (ie. Memphis - among lowest revenue generating teams in the league, small and poor, New Orleans - small, poor, no growth, losing superstars every 6 years...see Chris Paul, Anthony Davis, and in 6 years, likely Zion Williamson as well). Montreal would likely be a mid-revenue team befitting it's size, even with a .75 dollar. Vancouver would likely be lower-mid level...top 20 or so.

I'm not sure where you get these rumours of $2 billion expansion fees from because the more likely fees will be a $1 billion to $1.5 billion. Still a high price no doubt, but something I think a group in one of Montreal or Vancouver would be willing to pay given how lucrative the league's tv deals and international sponsorships are at this point. It's certainly is not a foolish financial risk at all given even the terrible franchises currently pull in $50 million in profits per year.

Actually, $2.5 billion expansion fee or $3.33 billion CAD.

NBA wants $2.5 billion fee for possible expansion teams; expects offers in Vegas and Seattle, per report

Teams in Canada would lose plenty of superstars as well. If Toronto has a hard time attracting superstars, then Montreal and Vancouver would to. Montreal and Toronto get plenty of cold and snow and all 3 Canadian teams would sit amongst the highest taxed cities in all of the NBA. Not a recipe for attracting NBA superstars.

What’s most important to a prospective owner is profit. Can that owner or owners recoup over $3 billion dollars with the revenue generated from their franchise? I’m extremely skeptical that any local owner would even take the risk with such an absurd price tag.

Finally, my statement was correct. Montreal is a huge metropolitan compared to other smaller NHL markets. To not fill a 22,000 seat arena in a hockey crazed market does not give me the confidence that an NBA team would work anywhere else in Canada once the honeymoon period is over.

By the way, here’s a picture of a Canucks game in the midst of their rebuild for your memory bank.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Actually, $2.5 billion expansion fee or $3.33 billion CAD.

NBA wants $2.5 billion fee for possible expansion teams; expects offers in Vegas and Seattle, per report

Teams in Canada would lose plenty of superstars as well. If Toronto has a hard time attracting superstars, then Montreal and Vancouver would to. Montreal and Toronto get plenty of cold and snow and all 3 Canadian teams would sit amongst the highest taxed cities in all of the NBA. Not a recipe for attracting NBA superstars.

What’s most important to a prospective owner is profit. Can that owner or owners recoup over $3 billion dollars with the revenue generated from their franchise? I’m extremely skeptical that any local owner would even take the risk with such an absurd price tag.

Finally, my statement was correct. Montreal is a huge metropolitan compared to other smaller NHL markets. To not fill a 22,000 seat arena in a hockey crazed market does not give me the confidence that an NBA team would work anywhere else in Canada once the honeymoon period is over.

By the way, here’s a picture of a Canucks game in the midst of their rebuild for your memory bank.

What the NBA wants and what the NBA gets are two entirely different things. We will see if either city is willing to pay that much. I have my doubts...

How about some context with that photo. Was there a storm that kept people from the game? Was it towards the end of the season when the Canucks were eliminated from the playoffs? A photo is meaningless without context.

Of course, the fact is the Canucks continued to sell a large number of tickets during the rebuild and were still a top-1o revenue team during that time - something you chose to ignore. It's asinine to compare them to FLorida - a team that draws poor crowds on a regular basis and are last or nearly last in revenue year after year.

 

[KevFu]

I just think Montreal would much rather have baseball over basketball. I think Montreal could turn on an NBA team even quicker than Vancouver if they were bad for awhile.

I mean, the Montreal metro area has 4 million people and an NHL team. No MLB, NBA or NFL team. They have MLS and a CFL team. The largest US City with one Big Four team and an MLS team is Orlando, 2.6 million.

The idea that Montreal (the 14th biggest metro area in USA/Canada) couldn't be an NHL/NBA/MLB city when Cleveland is half the size and has 3 Big Four teams?

The MLB decision and the NBA decision are not related.

 

[LadyStanley]

Addendum to Las Vegas bid thoughts....

The city/region has lost BILLIONS (tens if not hundreds of billions). The casinos were closed for 2.5 months. Streets were empty. There have been no conventions for nearly a year, and most (in person) events through the summer have been cancelled. Currently among the highest unemployment cities in the US (of large cities > 1 million population). Many hotels only open on the weekends; some only partially open, or chains only reopened some until demand made it worthwhile to reopen. (There are still some that haven't reopened and have not set a reopening date.). Air travel way down (to the point the airport is closing a parking lot).

I recall 3-6 months ago the headline that it would take THREE YEARS for the valley to get back. I now think that's optimistic.


Long term, adding a NBA team would work. But in the near term, that's a big gamble. My guess is that if a proposal is submitted, it would be 2-4 years before team would play.. (They would have to build/refurbish a practice facility. VGK HQ is in west valley, Summerlin, play on Strip; AHL HSK HQ in south, Henderson. Summerlin also has MiLB team. DTLV has USL Lights. Raiders HQ is Henderson and they play just off Strip.)

 

[qwerty]

What the NBA wants and what the NBA gets are two entirely different things. We will see if either city is willing to pay that much. I have my doubts...

How about some context with that photo. Was there a storm that kept people from the game? Was it towards the end of the season when the Canucks were eliminated from the playoffs? A photo is meaningless without context.

Of course, the fact is the Canucks continued to sell a large number of tickets during the rebuild and were still a top-1o revenue team during that time - something you chose to ignore. It's asinine to compare them to FLorida - a team that draws poor crowds on a regular basis and are last or nearly last in revenue year after year.

Well first of all, it’s not the city that pays the expansion fee, it’s an owner. Likely a local one who lives in town and would attend games every other day. So. If there are any Vancouver or Montreal multi billionaires with an extra $2B-$3B lying around after a pandemic, then a team in Canada is very possible.

Secondly, the picture was found on the internet, so if you need context, you can find it. It’s also Vancouver, if you know anything about Vancouver, it’s extremely unlikely to be a blizzard. Also, I’m not comparing Vancouver’s fanbase to Florida’s fanbase here, I’m well aware that there’s a stark contrast between the 2 franchises. Regardless, my main point was that in a large, hockey mad metropolis, if the team can’t find enough local support to sell out every hockey game during the tough times, how can the NBA expect sellouts during tough times for a niche sport in Canada.

On paper, Vancouver looks great. But it probably looked great for them the first time too which is why they took the plunge in the first place. I’m not saying Vancouver would definitively strike out twice like Atlanta did with the NHL, however, $2B-$3B CAD is not a small sum of money to gamble with either and I believe that will be the biggest hurdle to jump over.

 

[LadyStanley]

Las Vegas Expected to Pitch NBA Regarding Expansion Franchise

TWolves are for sale, and buyers not coming out of woodwork. If team does sell for under $1.5B, league needs to reconsider $2.5B ask for expansion.

 

[DaBadGuy7]

Las Vegas Expected to Pitch NBA Regarding Expansion Franchise

TWolves are for sale, and buyers not coming out of woodwork. If team does sell for under $1.5B, league needs to reconsider $2.5B ask for expansion.

Also, T-Wolves might be a relocation candidate as well if local ownership groups are tepid in terms of buying them. So there are a lot of questions to be answered before expansion talks can be held.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Las Vegas Expected to Pitch NBA Regarding Expansion Franchise

TWolves are for sale, and buyers not coming out of woodwork. If team does sell for under $1.5B, league needs to reconsider $2.5B ask for expansion.

THAT'S Glen Taylor in a nutshell, LS..... and now you know why Garnett left Minnesota when he did.....

 

[MNNumbers]

Also, T-Wolves might be a relocation candidate as well if local ownership groups are tepid in terms of buying them. So there are a lot of questions to be answered before expansion talks can be held.

As Minnesota native, and admitting that I have completely ZERO local contacts with important people of any kind, I can say this:
The only times that Minnesota, and the Twin Cities in general would ever rally around the Wolves would be if they were actually good, which has been exceeding rare in their history.
It would be no great loss to Minny if NBA left.
Although the city of Minneapolis would certainly feel it, because Target Center would get very quiet.

I wonder what the lease is there?

 

[Mightygoose]

The Timberwolves have a lease that runs through 2035. I'm not aware of any out clauses, it was tied to the recent renovations so I would think there will be strict penalties to leave if possible at all.

Re: Vancouver, Aquilini mentioned that he would need a partner due to the increase in values. Weather he recruits any remains to be seen. With a 2.5 billion price tag, I doubt any of the bids will be single buyers anyways. I don't see Vancouver getting a team via expansion but could be near the top of the list for relocation if a current team has building issues down the road.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

As Minnesota native, and admitting that I have completely ZERO local contacts with important people of any kind, I can say this:
The only times that Minnesota, and the Twin Cities in general would ever rally around the Wolves would be if they were actually good, which has been exceeding rare in their history.
It would be no great loss to Minny if NBA left.
Although the city of Minneapolis would certainly feel it, because Target Center would get very quiet.

I wonder what the lease is there?

the lease is probably akin to BB & T Center, and how that discussion over the Panthers playing there goes, as we've explained multiple times.... whether that can actually be broken or not is likely not as simple or advantageous to even consider.... and then the addition of Target Field (Twins) once the Metrodome went adios, never mind Minnesota Gophers or the Vikings

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

Also, T-Wolves might be a relocation candidate as well if local ownership groups are tepid in terms of buying them. So there are a lot of questions to be answered before expansion talks can be held.

The Wild owners should buy them, would allow both Wolves and Wild to split home schedule between MPLS and STP

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Also, T-Wolves might be a relocation candidate as well if local ownership groups are tepid in terms of buying them. So there are a lot of questions to be answered before expansion talks can be held.

As Minnesota native, and admitting that I have completely ZERO local contacts with important people of any kind, I can say this:
The only times that Minnesota, and the Twin Cities in general would ever rally around the Wolves would be if they were actually good, which has been exceeding rare in their history.
It would be no great loss to Minny if NBA left.
Although the city of Minneapolis would certainly feel it, because Target Center would get very quiet.

I wonder what the lease is there?

The Timberwolves have a lease that runs through 2035. I'm not aware of any out clauses, it was tied to the recent renovations so I would think there will be strict penalties to leave if possible at all.

Re: Vancouver, Aquilini mentioned that he would need a partner due to the increase in values. Weather he recruits any remains to be seen. With a 2.5 billion price tag, I doubt any of the bids will be single buyers anyways. I don't see Vancouver getting a team via expansion but could be near the top of the list for relocation if a current team has building issues down the road.

The NBA really does not want to relocate a team unless they can no longer stay in the market. Some owners actually voted for the purposed Kings to Seattle move but Stern did everything in his power to give the city of Sacramento every chance imaginable. Silver would probably do even more for the T-Wolves to make sure they stay in Minneapolis.

 

[cutchemist42]

I mean, the Montreal metro area has 4 million people and an NHL team. No MLB, NBA or NFL team. They have MLS and a CFL team. The largest US City with one Big Four team and an MLS team is Orlando, 2.6 million.

The idea that Montreal (the 14th biggest metro area in USA/Canada) couldn't be an NHL/NBA/MLB city when Cleveland is half the size and has 3 Big Four teams?

The MLB decision and the NBA decision are not related.

There are people that would say Cleveland is not a healthy 3 team city. Like if you knew economic conditions today and started fresh, would anyone think Celeveland is a 3 team city?

Also no offense to Celeveland but Montreal is like NYC, its Canadas cultural capital with many things to do and tie up money.

Also surprised how little the F1 race hosting is mentioned. Host costs vary, but the average expense annually for an F1 is about $50 million. You almost have to view that 1 race as it's own small franchise as that expense is not nothing.

I just think culturally, the basketball team gets wrecked playing in season with the Canadians and dont see that team surviving a few seasons of being ignored like what happened with Vancouver.

I think NHL/MLB/MLS/F1/balance-of-everything-else works out healthier for all vs the NBA.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

keep in mind, folks.... the NBA has not expanded since 2004/05 (the NHL 1st lockout) when the Bobcats and BET owned the franchise in Charlotte

 

[generalshepherd141]

The NBA really does not want to relocate a team unless they can no longer stay in the market. Some owners actually voted for the purposed Kings to Seattle move but the NBA but Stern did everything in his power to give the city of Sacramento every chance imaginable. Silver would probably do even more for T-Wolves to make sure they stay in Minneapolis.

Exactly. Unless a team's arena deteriorates to make it unquestionably the worst in the league, AND they are unable to build a new one in that market, relocation for the next 15-20 years seems very unlikely to happen.

The NBA knows what it's doing here. No relocations do lead to a higher general happiness with the league. Just look at how people have turned on the NFL since 2015, and it's no coincidence there have been 3 relocations in that time in that league.

 

[CanadianCoyote]

Also no offense to Celeveland but Montreal is like NYC, its Canadas cultural capital with many things to do and tie up money.

It's not the cultural capital, it's a cultural capital. Toronto is the capital of English-Canadian culture, Montréal is the capital of French-Canadian culture, and personally, I'd argue that Vancouver is right amongst them as a capital of Asian-Canadian culture.

There's multiple "cultural capitals" in the country, not just a single one. And Vancouver is probably more appealing to NBA because...well, you don't need to learn French to do media interviews in Vancouver. French is hard to learn when you've been speaking exclusively English for so much of your life, and there's not as much pressure to be French-fluent in Vancouver as there is in Montréal.

 

[cutchemist42]

It's not the cultural capital, it's a cultural capital. Toronto is the capital of English-Canadian culture, Montréal is the capital of French-Canadian culture, and personally, I'd argue that Vancouver is right amongst them as a capital of Asian-Canadian culture.

There's multiple "cultural capitals" in the country, not just a single one.

Well its subjective but IN MY OPINIOn ONLY, I prefer the festival's and architecture and nightlife more of Montreal than Toronto.

It wasnt the focal point of my post anyway, as all 3 of those Canadian cities have more to do than Celeveland.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

It's not the cultural capital, it's a cultural capital. Toronto is the capital of English-Canadian culture, Montréal is the capital of French-Canadian culture, and personally, I'd argue that Vancouver is right amongst them as a capital of Asian-Canadian culture.

There's multiple "cultural capitals" in the country, not just a single one. And Vancouver is probably more appealing to NBA because...well, you don't need to learn French to do media interviews in Vancouver. French is hard to learn when you've been speaking exclusively English for so much of your life, and there's not as much pressure to be French-fluent in Vancouver as there is in Montréal.

There's always the hiring of interpreters already fluent in English and French

 

[generalshepherd141]

It's not the cultural capital, it's a cultural capital. Toronto is the capital of English-Canadian culture, Montréal is the capital of French-Canadian culture, and personally, I'd argue that Vancouver is right amongst them as a capital of Asian-Canadian culture.

There's multiple "cultural capitals" in the country, not just a single one. And Vancouver is probably more appealing to NBA because...well, you don't need to learn French to do media interviews in Vancouver. French is hard to learn when you've been speaking exclusively English for so much of your life, and there's not as much pressure to be French-fluent in Vancouver as there is in Montréal.

It's important to note though that Montreal is not exclusively French-speaking. In fact, many of its French-speakers know some English as well. You could easily argue that language is more of a barrier in Vancouver than Montreal.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Exactly. Unless a team's arena deteriorates to make it unquestionably the worst in the league, AND they are unable to build a new one in that market, relocation for the next 15-20 years seems very unlikely to happen.

The NBA knows what it's doing here. No relocations do lead to a higher general happiness with the league. Just look at how people have turned on the NFL since 2015, and it's no coincidence there have been 3 relocations in that time in that league.

The Sonics move is still a PR hit for the league in 2021! Even though the team had significant arena and financial issues at the time and there was no reasonable path forward with all the resistance from the state and city.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

The Sonics move is still a PR hit for the league in 2021! Even though the team had significant arena and financial issues at the time and there was no reasonable path forward with all the resistance from the state and city.

actually, not true, Centrum:

why is the current arena back in play, just as it was back in the late 1970s, albeit a different sponsorship agreement, than why Key was allowed to remain tagged until the ongoing renovation at Seattle Center....

that has nothing to do with the business decision to grant the transfer of the Sonics to become the Thunder.... it was also why the Storm were not part of that transfer and by default became the primary tenant at what is now Climate Pledge Arena at Seattle Center....independent of the decision to start the Kraken in Seattle, add to that what OKC did with the now Pelicans after the Jazz experiment went to the Millers in Utah, before the recent sale of that franchise.

 

[Fatass]

It's important to note though that Montreal is not exclusively French-speaking. In fact, many of its French-speakers know some English as well. You could easily argue that language is more of a barrier in Vancouver than Montreal.

Doesn’t matter about language. Montreal and Vancouver are huge hockey markets, and having an NBA franchise just will not work in those two cities as the second fiddle. They are way smaller than Toronto, especially when considering the greater areas.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Doesn’t matter about language. Montreal and Vancouver are huge hockey markets, and having an NBA franchise just will not work in those two cities as the second fiddle. They are way smaller than Toronto, especially when considering the greater areas.

Montreal is an issue for any franchise, not named Les Canadiens du Montreal..... tbth..... MLSE is different, but there have been issues with their reach at times, also....

St. Catharines and Newmarket come immediately to that forefront, larry, nevermind, Mississauga and the Raptors 905 incursion... then the failed Lyle Abraham sidebar with the Oilers affiliation in Toronto when MLSE was dealing with SJSE in Newfoundland.

 

[Fatass]

Montreal is an issue for any franchise, not named Les Canadiens du Montreal..... tbth..... MLSE is different, but there have been issues with their reach at times, also....

St. Catharines and Newmarket come immediately to that forefront, larry, nevermind, Mississauga and the Raptors 905 incursion... then the failed Lyle Abraham sidebar with the Oilers affiliation in Toronto when MLSE was dealing with SJSE in Newfoundland.

When we had the Grizzlies fans attended games, but there just wasn’t much interest in the team outside of the arena. From what I remember the owner couldn’t afford the NBA team as a second fiddle in this market.