Nashville sale thread--Leipold PULLS OUT of sale, Balsillie's bid OUT

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nomorekids

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Feb 28, 2003
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The NFL subsequently tightened up its by-laws regarding moving a franchise, and when Davis took the Raiders back to L.A. and tried to sue the NFL again, he lost. gscarpenter and I covered this in painstaking detail in another thread.

Vanek keeps saying, on the Preds boards, that the bylaws of a private entity like the NHL "won't hold up in court."

Someone PLEASE steer him correctly, so he pipes down? He won't listen to me, because I'm a delusional Preds fan.
 

vivianmb

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Nashville has had an NHL team for exactly eight (8) NHL seasons. They've "been good" (read: made the playoffs) for exactly 3 of those - the last 3 seasons played. One of those 3 seasons was prior to the lockout.

So I'll ask a 2nd time: how much time is enough to give a market ample opportunity to show it can support an NHL franchise? 6 years (like Columbus), 7 years (like Atlanta), 8 years (like Nashville), 13 years (like Florida), 15 years (like Tampa and Ottawa), 16 years (like San Jose), or 20 or more years (like Winnipeg, Quebec City, and Hartford had before their teams were relocated)? Or is there some other number that's sufficient to determine when a new market will or won't support the NHL long-term? I'm still trying to figure out what the "magic number" is.

all numbers for cities except Winnipeg, Quebec City, and Hartford exclude the 2004-05 lockout season.



lets remember the three WHA teams mentioned above (whalers,nords,jets)didnt have the luxury of playing in new taxpayer funded arenas, received no revenue sharing, nor had the help a salary cap would afford .
oh and (especially in winnipeg's case) these teams were stripped-mined of ALL of their players except two skaters and a goalie(i believe).just to gain admitance.
it took them years to become even mediocre.in 1978 the jets beat the soviet red army team and were considered one of the best teams in the WORLD nhl included . in 1981 they were the worst team in nhl history to that date.the nhl screwed the old wha teams. there is no denying this.
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
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Vanek keeps saying, on the Preds boards, that the bylaws of a private entity like the NHL "won't hold up in court."

Someone PLEASE steer him correctly, so he pipes down? He won't listen to me, because I'm a delusional Preds fan.
Question, vanek: if the NHL by-laws won't stand up in court, why is it that the only lawsuit filed against the NHL in the last 30+ years from an owner trying to sell was Ralston Purina in '83 when the BoG denied their attempted $11 million sale to Bill Hunter in the ill-fated, "Saskatoon Blues" attempt? It's not the only sale that's been turned down, but it's the only time someone tried to sue for denying the sale. Ralston Purina sued for $20 million (later they demanded $60 million), the NHL responded with a $78 million countersuit; 2 years later when both suits went to court, after the NHL started detailing how RP had breached its obligation to the league, the two sides settled both lawsuits.

Read: the NHL's by-laws absolutely will stand up in court. Thinking it won't is like thinking a person has a right to say what he or she wants anywhere in the U.S. - they don't. If you think I'm wrong on that assertion, go into work on Monday and tell your boss to "**** off and drop dead, you piece of ****." See (A) how long you still have a job after that, and (B) how quickly your state labor office laughs you out the door when you go to complain.

lets remember the three WHA teams mentioned above (whalers,nords,jets)didnt have the luxury of playing in new taxpayer funded arenas, received no revenue sharing, nor had the help a salary cap would afford .
oh and (especially in winnipeg's case) these teams were stripped-mined of ALL of their players except two skaters and a goalie(i believe).just to gain admitance.
it took them years to become even mediocre.in 1978 the jets beat the soviet red army team and were considered one of the best teams in the WORLD nhl included . in 1981 they were the worst team in nhl history to that date.the nhl screwed the old wha teams. there is no denying this.
So ....... how many years?
 

sluggo*

Guest
Well I believe all the leagues tightened their movement restrictions and such after the Davis suit. I'm sure there is something in by-laws of the league about such and Ballsillie would have to agree to in order to be approved as owner

Bylaws don't hold up at LAWS. The private rules and bylaws of companies and orginaztions are changed and defeated in court all time. Bylaws don't hold up. IF they did girls still wouldn't be allowed in the boy scouts, every sex, weight or age discrimination case would be thrown out etc... Just because you have a club or a group doesn't mean you can make up whatever you "laws" you want and have them superseed the "laws of the land". They don't hold up. If Balsillie didn't have a league leg to stand on, he wouldn't be doing this.

1. The fact that he's overpaying by $100 million has no bearing on the validity of the proposal, nor does it mean that the NHL has any additional obligation to approve the move.
2. True! I think I've been saying this for weeks now.
QUOTE]

1) Validity no. Personal interest in seeing the deal go through, yes.

2) He doesn't have too, he can bully and/or spend his way through and get it done. It doesn't matter how many tickets the Predators sell next season or what the status of the lease is, if BOTH PARTIES agree to disolve the lease its gone.
 

nomorekids

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Feb 28, 2003
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Vanek, I think you're overestimating both how much money Balsillie has and also his propensity to spend "any amount" to get the deal done.

But...IB is absolutely correct in everything he just said. If you don't believe him, look up GSCarpenter's posts on the matter(he is a lawyer, by the way), or I'm sure he'll be around shortly to affirm it.
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
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Bylaws don't hold up at LAWS. The private rules and bylaws of companies and orginaztions are changed and defeated in court all time. Bylaws don't hold up. IF they did girls still wouldn't be allowed in the boy scouts, every sex, weight or age discrimination case would be thrown out etc... Just because you have a club or a group doesn't mean you can make up whatever you "laws" you want and have them superseed the "laws of the land". They don't hold up. If Balsillie didn't have a league leg to stand on, he wouldn't be doing this.
When anyone here can show that the league's by-laws violate someone's consitutional rights, then let me know. Simply denying a sale because the prospective owner has been an ass or ruffled feathers with his tactics isn't a violation of the prospective owner's constitutional rights; there is no "right to own a team" inherent in the Constitution.


1) Validity no. Personal interest in seeing the deal go through, yes.

2) He doesn't have too, he can bully and/or spend his way through and get it done. It doesn't matter how many tickets the Predators sell next season or what the status of the lease is, if BOTH PARTIES agree to disolve the lease its gone.
I'll remind you and everyone else who continues to cite the $238 million purchase price as a reason the league would definitely approve the sale that Anaheim sold for less than the expansion fee Disney paid to get into the league. If there was really that much personal interest, why didn't the league deny the sale to get a higher bid to prop up the price of other franchises?

Answer - because the value of the other 29 franchises is affected very little (if at all) by the selling price of the 30th. If that was indeed the case, housing prices in a neighborhood for all houses would spike up or down when a house sold for well above or below the expected value, regardless of the underlying reasons behind that selling price.

AFA Balsille's bullying tactics being a reason why the league would approve the sale ... :lol:
 

william_adams

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There was some rumblings on XM today that the Frist and Ingram families are possibly involved in the local ownership group...in which case....Balsillie could become outmonied in quick fashion, if they're willing to pay it. Look up Martha Ingram, if you're not familiar.

Lots of money there for sure, but i'm not sure balsillie could be considered out-moneyed... they're all on the forbes list, not like any of them have trouble parting wth the necessary cash for a team.
 

nomorekids

The original, baby
Feb 28, 2003
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Lots of money there for sure, but i'm not sure balsillie could be considered out-moneyed... they're all on the forbes list, not like any of them have trouble parting wth the necessary cash for a team.

True, but when you have a group going against one guy...you have to look at it like,

Man 1 bids 100 dollars

each member of Group 2, 1-10, bids 20 dollars, for a total of 200 dollars.

The idea is that with a group ownership, no one bidder is taking the massive hit that Balsillie would be taking.
 

vivianmb

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Question, vanek: if the NHL by-laws won't stand up in court, why is it that the only lawsuit filed against the NHL in the last 30+ years from an owner trying to sell was Ralston Purina in '83 when the BoG denied their attempted $11 million sale to Bill Hunter in the ill-fated, "Saskatoon Blues" attempt? It's not the only sale that's been turned down, but it's the only time someone tried to sue for denying the sale. Ralston Purina sued for $20 million (later they demanded $60 million), the NHL responded with a $78 million countersuit; 2 years later when both suits went to court, after the NHL started detailing how RP had breached its obligation to the league, the two sides settled both lawsuits.

Read: the NHL's by-laws absolutely will stand up in court. Thinking it won't is like thinking a person has a right to say what he or she wants anywhere in the U.S. - they don't. If you think I'm wrong on that assertion, go into work on Monday and tell your boss to "**** off and drop dead, you piece of ****." See (A) how long you still have a job after that, and (B) how quickly your state labor office laughs you out the door when you go to complain.


So ....... how many years?


these days i think the moment someone who owns them wants to move them. adios. same as hartford and winnipeg.if those teams had NEW almost free buildings, a SALARY CAP, and revenue sharing i believe they might've survived through to the lockout.
nashville had all of the right reasons to succeed. and compared to the old wha teams MANY MORE YEARS with those things in their corner.
 

sluggo*

Guest
Question, vanek: if the NHL by-laws won't stand up in court, why is it that the only lawsuit filed against the NHL in the last 30+ years from an owner trying to sell was Ralston Purina in '83 when the BoG denied their attempted $11 million sale to Bill Hunter in the ill-fated, "Saskatoon Blues" attempt? It's not the only sale that's been turned down, but it's the only time someone tried to sue for denying the sale. Ralston Purina sued for $20 million (later they demanded $60 million), the NHL responded with a $78 million countersuit; 2 years later when both suits went to court, after the NHL started detailing how RP had breached its obligation to the league, the two sides settled both lawsuits.

That was blocked because the city couldn't support the team, there was a real reason for not wanting a team in Saskatoon (very poor city). Hamilton, like LA with the Raiders, CAN support the team, and Balsillie selling 10,000 season tickets and over 50% of his luxury boxes (without a team), as well as having a 22,000 seat arena (rather then 18,000) in a market of roughly 6 million (Saskatoon, not even 1/4 of a million).

In short, there is an investment reason to not want a team in Saskatoon, there isn't with Hamilton. It wasn't a "he's breaking our clubs rules" thing, it was "the team will fail there" thing.

Read: the NHL's by-laws absolutely will stand up in court. Thinking it won't is like thinking a person has a right to say what he or she wants anywhere in the U.S. - they don't. If you think I'm wrong on that assertion, go into work on Monday and tell your boss to "**** off and drop dead, you piece of ****." See (A) how long you still have a job after that, and (B) how quickly your state labor office laughs you out the door when you go to complain.

Completely different situation. Telling your boss to "**** off and drop dead, you piece of **** is unprofessonal, which is universally accepted as grounds for firing someone, its not whats being said but how you're acting thats the problem. You CAN say what you want anywhere in the US, the Supreme Court has decided that time and time and time again.
 

LeafErikson

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Anyone who had any doubt wether or not the city of hamilton can sell season tickets at normal price, with no guarantee.

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/207788

This isn't the first time ticket sales for a hypothetical team have been sold to boost Hamilton's chances of netting a franchise.

In 1990, excited Hamilton hockey fans bought 13,355 season tickets in a matter of days only to see their hopes dashed when the NHL rejected the city's bid, which was led by prospective owner Ron Joyce.

And, to go along with my suggestion, that this is very much a sale to SW Ontario, (and not just the Hamilton area), and I'm sure this is much the same feeling of many others in here.

But that was very much a community initiative with a carefully calculated lead-up to the ticket drive.

The fact Balsillie's people are pitching the tickets to "Ontario hockey fans" without any community ramp-up suggests that from a marketing perspective.

He wants to position the prospective franchise as a Golden Horseshoe team, not just a Hamilton team, in order to draw from a broad geographic base.
 

kdb209

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Jan 26, 2005
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The NFL subsequently tightened up its by-laws regarding moving a franchise, and when Davis took the Raiders back to L.A. and tried to sue the NFL again, he lost. gscarpenter and I covered this in painstaking detail in another thread.
I think you are overstating the relevance of the 2001 jury decision against Davis. The claims thrown out in 2001 did not have to do with anti-trust or franchise movement - Davis made claims of conspiracy and breach of contract in the leagues actions concerning a proposed new Hollywood Park stadium deal.

http://www.raidersrap.com/court-losangeles.html

A Superior Court jury voted 9-3 on May 21, 2001 for the NFL, rejecting breach of contract claims, unjust enrichment and other violations of the league constitution and bylaws. It also rejected that the NFL acted with "oppression", malice or fraud" in dealing with the team that returned to Oakland in 1995 after negotiations broke off for a new stadium at Hollywood Park in suburban Inglewood. The trial lasted 11 weeks, including four weeks of deliberation.

...

In the lawsuit, Raiders owner Al Davis (right) demanded more than $1 billion for the right to the Los Angeles market and to compensate the franchise for revenue allegedly lost because of the failed stadium deal. The Raiders also asked for unspecified punitive damges, claiming the league essentially discriminated against the team during their stadium negotiations.

...

The Raiders claimed the NFL forced the team to leave Southern California by pushing for a second team at Hollywood Park. Davis said the second team would have crippled the Raiders financially when it came to selling luxury suites and building fan loyalty.

As far as I know, the league has not made any changes in it's bylaws concerning league approval for franchise moves and the circumstances and precident of the 1984 anti trust decison (LA Memorial Coliseum Commission v NFL) are unchanged and still applicable.
 
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william_adams

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True, but when you have a group going against one guy...you have to look at it like,

Man 1 bids 100 dollars

each member of Group 2, 1-10, bids 20 dollars, for a total of 200 dollars.

The idea is that with a group ownership, no one bidder is taking the massive hit that Balsillie would be taking.

Fair enough, but one guy paying for a team that he believes will make money is still plenty a match for the group... not to mention that the guy is pretty passionate about hockey (i have absolutely zero clue about the nashville bid group, but i am assuming that there isn't a seriously rabid hockey fan among them...

I kind of hope that the Nashville group comes together with a firm bid and commitment to the team. Then the NHL can award expansion franchises to Kansas City and Hamilton and everybody (except the propenents of contraction)...
 

sluggo*

Guest
When anyone here can show that the league's by-laws violate someone's consitutional rights, then let me know. Simply denying a sale because the prospective owner has been an ass or ruffled feathers with his tactics isn't a violation of the prospective owner's constitutional rights; there is no "right to own a team" inherent in the Constitution

You mean not allowing someone else to carry out a transaction? You mean like doing what someone wants with something they pay for? Can a car dealership make you only drive during the day? Can a home builder make you not have an pets in the house? Can that car dealership or home building then step in and "oh no, you can't sell that you them".

In all likelyhood the BoG won't deny Balsillie's offer, they have to much to gain from it. Once he has the team, its gone.

I'll remind you and everyone else who continues to cite the $238 million purchase price as a reason the league would definitely approve the sale that Anaheim sold for less than the expansion fee Disney paid to get into the league. If there was really that much personal interest, why didn't the league deny the sale to get a higher bid to prop up the price of other franchises?

Maybe there wasn't one. There isn't a huge market for NHL teams since all but a handful do nthing but lose money. Of coures if there was another/other bids, that would just show that the BoG isn't likely to stick their nose in and make selling a team hard for one of the owners.

If that was indeed the case, housing prices in a neighborhood for all houses would spike up or down when a house sold for well above or below the expected value, regardless of the underlying reasons behind that selling price

Ummmm, housing prices do go up and down depending on how much other homes sell for.
 

MAROONSRoad

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Feb 24, 2007
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Maroons Rd.
Bylaws don't hold up at LAWS. The private rules and bylaws of companies and orginaztions are changed and defeated in court all time. Bylaws don't hold up. IF they did girls still wouldn't be allowed in the boy scouts, every sex, weight or age discrimination case would be thrown out etc... Just because you have a club or a group doesn't mean you can make up whatever you "laws" you want and have them superseed the "laws of the land". They don't hold up. If Balsillie didn't have a league leg to stand on, he wouldn't be doing this.

This is correct. To use an example, let's say I owned a apartment block which I turned into condos. I then offered those condos for sale and put a caveat in all the sales agreements or on the title to the property that any purchaser of a condo can not sell said condo in the future to any green skin, red hair person that is not an avid NHL hockey fan. Now, let's say that the jurisdiction in which I live has a law entitled Housing Non-Discrimination Act which prohibits discrimination on the bases of skin-colour, hair-colour or hobbies/interests. Will my desire to have a club/condo unit that excludes green skin, red hair, non-hockey fans trump the laws of the land?

Here's a better example to get closer to the point. Let's say the NHL had a by-law that stated no black or asian person was allowed to own an NHL franchise. Do you think that the private NHL club would be able to enforce that by-law? Do you think a black or asian purchaser would have no action using the Charter of Rights in Canada?

If Balsillie can show to a court that the reason his sales agreement was not approved by the NHL is because he wants to relocate the franchise, and if it is against the anti-trust/competition laws to prevent such relocation, Balsillie may have an action against the NHL.

GHOST
 
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GSC2k2*

Guest
I asked this question of you specifically because as you know we disagree on the
logistics of Balsillie moving a team to the area. However, with respect to
Hamilton, we may disagree somewhat on the details and whether the city might
in theory have enough support for a team, but we certainly agree on the big picture. Much of what is happening right now leaves me puzzled. I find it very hard to imagine that Balsillie would risk the territorial fees or the battle to challenge them to insist on Hamilton and then have to turn around and invest $100 million plus on someone else's building. Now he is raising the stakes even more by his recent actions
which certainly put even the purchase of the Preds in a more precarious position.

Individual parts of the deal can easily be explained. But it seems clear to me
that he has something specific in mind for how this will all play out
I stated in a previous post and agree with Resolute that the best situation for all could be for a strong local ownership group to surface in Nashville a la Edmonton's EIG and for Balsillie to be awarded an expansion franchise which he could manage
more or less on his own conditions and time table though outside the territory of Buffalo and perhaps Toronto. More and more, I can't help but think that
Balsillie has been intent on pushing the NHL towards rejecting his purchase in favour of an expansion team.

To be frank, Fourier, I do find it kind of interesting that people think that all that has happened is unfolding according to some crafty, devious master plan that has previously scripted out everything that has happened to date.

For many of the reasons you have stated, but which some of the schlubs on this board have ignored, I actually think that Balsillie's original "game plan" went way out the window some time ago. I actually think that what we are witnessng is a complete cluster**** on the part of Balsillie and his counsel. It is completely botched, and Balsillie is going about it in a completely hamhanded way.

There are completely different negotiating tactics that one undertakes in doing a deal where you are simply buying something, versus the tactic one employs when one is buying into a partnership/Joint venture. In the latter, one does not employ tactics which are certain to antagonize and/or humiliate. Yet, this Balsillie has done.

There is a bit of a misconception about Balsillie being some kind of business wunderkind. For the most part, he is a guy who had the good fortune to be a buddy of Mike Lazardis, who developed a killer product that has caught on like a mofo. Balsillie does not have a huge background of successfully engineering acquisitions of this magnitude, to my knowledge. He is in new territory. The biggest negotiation that he DID engineer was the negotiation of the resolution of the lawsuit against RIM by a US patent troll. He messed up that negotiaiton and cost RIM hundreds of additional millions of dollars, quite frankly. RIM is a one-excellent-trick pony which hopes like hell that no one builds a better mousetrap than theirs.

For this reason, I would suggest that it is pretty well laughable to me that Balsillie is executing a detailed, previously thought-out strategy. There are too many variables involving too many parties whose reactions could not be foreseen.

One additional thing that I find extremely curious, by the way, (and probably only lawyers would find it curious) is the choice of law firm that Balsillie has employed for this series of transactions. RIM's longtime counsel is McCarthy Tetrault, a Canadian megafirm which is one of the "seven sisters" of Canadian law (the seven universally acknowledged premier firms, by far). However, instead he has (for his various Hamilton forays) used Gardiner Roberts. Gardiner Roberts, while a fine firm, is at best a third or fourth tier firm. Their key strength is in health law. For a multi-disciplinary transaction like this one involving corporate, contract, leasing, real estate, secured lending, competition, and (probably) litigation components AND involves cross-border considerations which would entail the management of US counsel, this begs for the services of a giant firm with expertise and bench strength in all those disciplines. A firm like McCarthys, for example. I believe it may be that McCarthys represents the city of Hamilton from time to time, which would create a conflict, but there are about a dozen firms that one would call up that would blow a minor firm like Gardiner Roberts out of the water. Gardiner is not even on the radar in this arena, to be honest. Also, as a key client, Balsillie would probably trump Hamilton as a client if asked to choose. Keep in mind that I am not blaming Balsillie's counsel for the above referenced hamfisted approach per se. Strategy is a result of counsel and client together. The outside lawyers do not decide. I am just saying that to suggest that this is not an audible probably places WAY too much credit with Balsillie and his counsel.
 

kdb209

Registered User
Jan 26, 2005
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When anyone here can show that the league's by-laws violate someone's consitutional rights, then let me know. Simply denying a sale because the prospective owner has been an ass or ruffled feathers with his tactics isn't a violation of the prospective owner's constitutional rights; there is no "right to own a team" inherent in the Constitution.
Well, the by-laws wouldn't have to violate someone's constitutional rights - they would just have to violate any applicable federal law (anti-discrimination, anti-trust, etc, which are not necessarily constitutional issues - they are issues of federal statute).

I agree, Balsillie would likely have little grounds to contest the approval/rejection of the franchise sale, but after a theoretical sale would have grounds to contest league restrictions on movement which violated US anti trust law (barring specific agreements as conditions of the sale).

Note that bylaws of private organizations and agreements between private parties can be invalidated (or at least made unenforecable) by things as simple as federal rule making. In 1996, the FCC issued rules restricting the ability of local governments and private entities from enforcing restrictions of the installation of satellite dishes.
 

Stanley Foobrick

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Apr 2, 2007
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Anyone who had any doubt wether or not the city of hamilton can sell season tickets at normal price, with no guarantee.

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/207788



And, to go along with my suggestion, that this is very much a sale to SW Ontario, (and not just the Hamilton area), and I'm sure this is much the same feeling of many others in here.

This isn't the first time ticket sales for a hypothetical team have been sold to boost Hamilton's chances of netting a franchise.

>>>>>>>>In 1990, excited Hamilton hockey fans bought 13,355 season tickets in a matter of days only to see their hopes dashed when the NHL rejected the city's bid, which was led by prospective owner Ron Joyce. <<<<<<

This part you quoted from the article isn't exactly right. In 1990 13,355 people put down a $100 refundable deposit. Much like the refundable deposit of the last two days.
 

sluggo*

Guest
For many of the reasons you have stated, but which some of the schlubs on this board have ignored, I actually think that Balsillie's original "game plan" went way out the window some time ago. I actually think that what we are witnessng is a complete cluster**** on the part of Balsillie and his counsel. It is completely botched, and Balsillie is going about it in a completely hamhanded way.

I wouldn't go that far. I think the first time Balsillie tried to buy a team he played it completely by the book, the way Bettman wanted him too. He said all the right things, didn't rock the boat etc... And he didn't get the team. This time, hes going the other way.
 

MAROONSRoad

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Feb 24, 2007
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Maroons Rd.
One additional thing that I find extremely curious, by the way, (and probably only lawyers would find it curious) is the choice of law firm that Balsillie has employed for this series of transactions. RIM's longtime counsel is McCarthy Tetrault, a Canadian megafirm which is one of the "seven sisters" of Canadian law (the seven universally acknowledged premier firms, by far). However, instead he has (for his various Hamilton forays) used Gardiner Roberts. Gardiner Roberts, while a fine firm, is at best a third or fourth tier firm. Their key strength is in health law. For a multi-disciplinary transaction like this one involving corporate, contract, leasing, real estate, secured lending, competition, and (probably) litigation components AND involves cross-border considerations which would entail the management of US counsel, this begs for the services of a giant firm with expertise and bench strength in all those disciplines. A firm like McCarthys, for example. I believe it may be that McCarthys represents the city of Hamilton from time to time, which would create a conflict, but there are about a dozen firms that one would call up that would blow a minor firm like Gardiner Roberts out of the water. Gardiner is not even on the radar in this arena, to be honest. Also, as a key client, Balsillie would probably trump Hamilton as a client if asked to choose. Keep in mind that I am not blaming Balsillie's counsel for the above referenced hamfisted approach per se. Strategy is a result of counsel and client together. The outside lawyers do not decide. I am just saying that to suggest that this is not an audible probably places WAY too much credit with Balsillie and his counsel.

You are making a big assumption. Just because Richard Rodier is the spokesperson does not mean he and Balsillie can not hire the best Canadian and American lawyers from any firm without a conflict to work on this matter. There is no rule against lawyers from various law firms working together. I suspect Rodier would farm out any work he does not believe his firm is capable of undertaking.

GHOST
 

LeafErikson

Schwifty 24/7
Jun 23, 2004
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Victoria B.C.
This isn't the first time ticket sales for a hypothetical team have been sold to boost Hamilton's chances of netting a franchise.

>>>>>>>>In 1990, excited Hamilton hockey fans bought 13,355 season tickets in a matter of days only to see their hopes dashed when the NHL rejected the city's bid, which was led by prospective owner Ron Joyce. <<<<<<

This part you quoted from the article isn't exactly right. In 1990 13,355 people put down a $100 refundable deposit. Much like the refundable deposit of the last two days.

Got a link to that info? I've heard otherwise, that they were full price, and non refundable.
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
29,258
8,686
Note that bylaws of private organizations and agreements between private parties can be invalidated (or at least made unenforecable) by things as simple as federal rule making. In 1996, the FCC issued rules restricting the ability of local governments and private entities from enforcing restrictions of the installation of satellite dishes.
http://www.chore.us/GOV-satellite.htm

That was from a branch of the government, not a court ruling. I don't see Congress getting involved in something like this.

You mean not allowing someone else to carry out a transaction? You mean like doing what someone wants with something they pay for? Can a car dealership make you only drive during the day? Can a home builder make you not have an pets in the house? Can that car dealership or home building then step in and "oh no, you can't sell that you them".
There is no "right to own a professional sports franchise," and the government isn't about to make their interpretation of the Constitution that sweeping. Car dealerships aren't in charge of the rules of the road, so this analogy is a non sequitur. If your home is part of a homeowner's association and the HA decrees that pets aren't allowed, then yes - you can be prohibited from having a pet. [And yes ... any attempt to sue in court to have that rule invalidated would fail miserably.] Your last analogy is also a non sequitur.

(P.S. - note the analogy of having a home in a homeowner's association to having a team in the NHL; except that in the latter, you can't get out and thus you're bound by the set of rules imposed on all 30 teams by the governing body.)

Ummmm, housing prices do go up and down depending on how much other homes sell for.
If a neighborhood has $150,000 houses and one of them sells for $400,000 because the guy buying the house lives next door and wants to knock it down to expand his house, then do all of the other houses instantly become $400,000 houses? Of course not - just as if one of them sells for $95,000 because the owner needs the cash to pay off bills, the other houses do not suddenly fall in value to $95,000.

The values of other franchises will be little changed if at all, because each one is subject to their own particular circumstances which causes each of them to have a different value. The sale of the Predators does not instantly make other franchises worth $85 million more, just as the sale of the Ducks didn't drive down the value of every other franchise by at least $20 million.
 

GSC2k2*

Guest
It is a lot of money, GC. Maybe from your perspective, it's akin to the peanuts that get shuffled around in the shell game when those multi-billion dollar projects are quoted out. If Leipold paid $80 MM for a franchise, and the city of Nashville came up with...(?)... $25 MM of that....it's almost the franchise fee alone for Leipold.

Now having the NHL pony up and cover the difference is an option. I don't know how that plays out legally, to say 'No' to Balsillie then subsidize another guy's offer who also wants to move the team? IF the league were to do that, I think it just proves that $45 MM is a significant sum of money-- which erodes the case you're trying to make that it shouldn't matter.

The BOG would have to be pretty convinced that not only is it worth the price to retain said control, but also realizing that the revenue sharing picture might look different in the two cases. Ergo... $1.5 MM may not be the only money they'll have to put up.

As usual, fugu, you are right to a large extent. Working on big deals does jade me sometimes to amounts like $1.5 million. I do think $45 million is significant, mind you. My point about the NLH covering the difference is an illustration that, taken from a certain perspective and cut up 29 ways, it becomes less significant.

Were I NHL counsel, I would not be the slightest bit concerned about denying Balsillie and approving someone else with a lower offer even if those others also wanted to move the team. The NHL has no obligation to grant an NHL franchise transfer to Balsillie. They are not under contract with him, nor do they have a duty of care that might create an independent tort. They do not have to treat him fairly. They do not even have to give him a reason for denying his bid.

Regarding revenue sharing, that is IMO a complete red herring, as I have mentioned elsewhere. IF Nashville does not receive revenue sharing, then the other teams get more, and perhaps a new team that was previously just outside the cutoff gets a revenue share. A higher revenue team would in fact raise the NHL's minimum revenue sharing commitment. TO's portion would not be lessened UNLESS a replacement team became one of the top ten revenue earners in the NHL, and even then it would change it only very marginally. Those who think that Hamilton would somehow save the Leafs and other teams revenue sharing dollars are barking up the wrong tree.
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
29,258
8,686
I think you are overstating the relevance of the 2001 jury decision against Davis. The claims thrown out in 2001 did not have to do with anti-trust or franchise movement - Davis made claims of conspiracy and breach of contract in the leagues actions concerning a proposed new Hollywood Park stadium deal.

http://www.raidersrap.com/court-losangeles.html



As far as I know, the league has not made any changes in it's bylaws concerning league approval for franchise moves and the circumstances and precident of the 1984 anti trust decison (LA Memorial Coliseum Commission v NFL) are unchanged and still applicable.
The original lawsuit Davis filed included allegations that the NFL violated antitrust laws in 1994 by refusing to help the Raiders with their move to Oakland by not schedule games in Oakland. A federal court threw that part out, stating that antitrust laws hadn't been violated. The rest of the complaints were thrown out on the basis that it didn't belong in federal court ... but Davis did in fact try to play the antitrust card a 2nd time and lost on that attempt.
 

william_adams

Registered User
Aug 3, 2005
1,942
0
Kyushu
If a neighborhood has $150,000 houses and one of them sells for $400,000 because the guy buying the house lives next door and wants to knock it down to expand his house, then do all of the other houses instantly become $400,000 houses? Of course not - just as if one of them sells for $95,000 because the owner needs the cash to pay off bills, the other houses do not suddenly fall in value to $95,000.

actually you're a little off here. real options do add value to homes. if a home sells because someone wants to knock it down and use the land for something more desirable (whether that be an addition to a neighbouring home, a set of townhouses or even an office tower) then the option excersised is likely excerisable nearby. thus this "real option" gets added to the price of any home in this area.
 
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