My Challenge to Leaf Fans.

[THHT]

Last year I thought about recording every single thing that Phaneuf did during his games in this season and create compilations to gauge just how good or bad he is on a night to night basis. This would be an attempt to formulate an unbiased opinion of his play for the season. I did this for the first game and realized that it required more time than I had originally thought to create such a video, which stopped me from making more.

Regardless, I gradually went through the entire game and every time Phaneuf was on the ice and had touched or affected the puck in some way, I clipped it out and placed it in the compilation. The resulting video shows approximately 98% of everything that Phaneuf did during the game (good or bad, mostly good for the first game). These things include:

-Shots
-Passes
-Hits (though I believe I didn't find any during the first game)
-Icing the puck on PKs
-Blocking shots on net
-Or literally anything else that can be considered good or bad

The excluded 2% were very basic things that any player on the team could do (ie. touching the puck for an icing when no one from the other team is chasing you). This ensured that the very best examples of good or bad were left in the video.

You may find the video here:


Which brings me to my challenge. First of all, I do not promise a consistent frequency of videos. Second of all, I'm only doing this to separate the fact from the fiction of people's opinions of players for certain games. So...

I will be recording this Saturday's game against the Habs. I'm asking you, the fans, which player should I pick out and create a compilation of for this game? It could be a player which is being debated about right now or it could just be your favorite player. But remember, the main idea is to figure out just how accurate people's observations are, in an attempt to educate (not humiliate) fans of just what a player is like. This way, we can create an unbiased and factual representation of what a player does during a game.

An example would be if I made a video of Reimer (which I would assume is playing on Saturday). I would show every stop that he made or any play that he was a direct part of (passing to someone from behind the net), as well as any goals against. I would post this in a new thread and you could make your observations of his play and we'll all get to gauge just what everyone thinks is good or bad, and perhaps have a rational debate about it.

That said, please consider and remember these key points:

-The videos are being created to gauge the accuracy of people's observations and to enlighten people into seeing the truth in a healthy and mature debate.
-The videos do not represent a player's complete makeup.
-The videos are simply a small visualization of their play for a specific game.
-The videos are not meant to regurgitate past views on specific players.
-I will be completely unbiased and will show only factual information. I have zero interest in creating humiliating videos.
-I will be deleting the videos two weeks after their posting (unless the conversation warrants further time).

And of course, this is just an idea and things about it can be changed or modified depending on how it goes. To paraphrase Ivan Drago: "If it dies, it dies."

Vote for the player you want to see a compilation of (I've limited the list). Cutoff date is Saturday night.

Click to read more...

 

[TML g u n n e R s*]

kulie to show people why he should not be traded

 

[Salgari]

Phaneuf. This is a fantastic idea

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

I applaud your effort

 

[NarcoPolo]

Great idea. Phaneuf

 

[THHT]

I applaud your effort

I bowed a little and my headphones nearly fell off.

 

[Hurt]

Kessel so we can see whether he's floating all the time like some claim or if his game is maturing like others say.

 

[THHT]

Kessel so we can see whether he's floating all the time like some claim or if his game is maturing like others say.

Kessel would be the hardest one for me to compile because his 'floating' is kind of subjective. One fan's 'floating' is another fan's 'Kessel waiting for the pass in a dangerous spot where said pass to him could potentially create a chance, goal, or turnover'. I'm going to have to be careful about what gets in or cut out.

But...if this early poll holds out, looks like people want Phaneuf (unsurprisingly).

 

[Hurt]

Kessel would be the hardest one for me to compile because his 'floating' is kind of subjective. One fan's 'floating' is another fan's 'Kessel waiting for the pass in a dangerous spot where said pass to him could potentially create a chance, goal, or turnover'. I'm going to have to be careful about what gets in or cut out.

But...if this early poll holds out, looks like people want Phaneuf (unsurprisingly).

That's true, you're right. Wouldn't mind seeing Phaneuf send it high and wide just for it to ring around the boards and out on the PP in one video . Thanks for doing this, by the way.

 

[THHT]

That's true, you're right. Wouldn't mind seeing Phaneuf send it high and wide just for it to ring around the boards and out on the PP in one video . Thanks for doing this, by the way.

Or ring it off the backboards and it bounces into the middle of the ice where the opponents regain possession and creates an odd-man rush the other way. But then you have to debate whether or not other Leafs on the ice should be better prepped for such an outcome. Or Phaneuf should lower his shot more. Or there was too much traffic for a proper shot and it was entirely intentional by Phaneuf (though I do wonder what the stats are like for successful goals made from deflections from point shots off the backboards...too specific?).

No problem. I find myself recording the games anyway so that I can gif interesting/funny/cool things. This is just an extension, and decent practice for me to learn the game better. Might as well post for others to see.

It's like you're a player's personal coach.

Also: No <3 for Liles? Sadface.
Also#2: I should also mention that next time the videos should have graphic titles/labels for each clip, explaining what I'm seeing from the player. If you disagree, then that's what the discussion could be about. I'm more than happy to admit I'm wrong if it's warranted.

 

[TMLife*]

Phaneuf for sure so we can hopefully end the debate about how bad he is.
Then kadri!

 

[Epictetus]

Perhaps I can get some clarification.

So you gather a compliation of a player in one game, and we all "rationally" debate said player's performance in one game. Even assuming the best result, which is that we all agree on said player's performance in one game, how does this not amount to anything more than just: "yes, we can all agree that player X performed well in that game", or the opposite result, namely, universal agreeance a player performing bad. In other words, it's not enough to discredit a person's bias to a particular player (which I think is your purpose of doing this). Even the most crazy of posters can agree that a particular player they dislike and think is incompetent can perform well in one game. It won't change their opinion of said player, though.

Moreover, goals\assists, turnovers leading to goals, etc., I think, are just too big of factors that will create a bias (probably not the right word, but I am tired) and tamper with your results. Phaneuf, for example, can perform awesome but if he gives away the puck in overtime leading to the opposing team scoring, then what?

Nevertheless, I appreciate your effort. But, I just don't think this will work in a one-game sample size.

 

[Anthrax442]

I wanna see all the Phaneuf roughing Ovechkin over the time

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

You should just extrapolate Phaneuf. I have my my own criticisms of the guy but when I isolate him he looks pretty good. Still makes questionable decisions *with* the puck and shouldn't be playing 25+ minutes a night though.

 

[diceman934]

Kessel would be the hardest one for me to compile because his 'floating' is kind of subjective. One fan's 'floating' is another fan's 'Kessel waiting for the pass in a dangerous spot where said pass to him could potentially create a chance, goal, or turnover'. I'm going to have to be careful about what gets in or cut out.

But...if this early poll holds out, looks like people want Phaneuf (unsurprisingly).

There is nothing Subjective of Kessel avoiding the areas of the ice that contact can occur...... watching him pull chute on several plays a game would show up along with skating a wide circle when the puck heads south to avoid getting back and possible contact. I have never seen a player who turns his back to the puck so much even if the D zone.

 

[diceman934]

Perhaps I can get some clarification.

So you gather a compliation of a player in one game, and we all "rationally" debate said player's performance in one game. Even assuming the best result, which is that we all agree on said player's performance in one game, how does this not amount to anything more than just: "yes, we can all agree that player X performed well in that game", or the opposite result, namely, universal agreeance a player performing bad. In other words, it's not enough to discredit a person's bias to a particular player (which I think is your purpose of doing this). Even the most crazy of posters can agree that a particular player they dislike and think is incompetent can perform well in one game. It won't change their opinion of said player, though.

Moreover, goals\assists, turnovers leading to goals, etc., I think, are just too big of factors that will create a bias (probably not the right word, but I am tired) and tamper with your results. Phaneuf, for example, can perform awesome but if he gives away the puck in overtime leading to the opposing team scoring, then what?

Nevertheless, I appreciate your effort. But, I just don't think this will work in a one-game sample size.

I agree...100%

 

[HockeyThoughts]

Kessel, Grabovski or Phaneuf. ie. This board's whipping boys.

I'd also be interested in a Kostka one to see just how ineffective his 25:00TOI/G or 5:00PPTOI/G really are.

 

[BayStBullies]

I'd say Kulemin; he deserves exposure for the positive things he does away from the puck.

 

[diceman934]

It makes no difference to me as I tape the games and can and do rewind them to get a good idea of what occurred. I did not vote.

 

[TheBigThree]

How about non of the above?

 

[THHT]

...how does this not amount to anything more than just: "yes, we can all agree that player X performed well in that game", or the opposite result, namely, universal agreeance a player performing bad.

Good question.

If such an outcome were possible, you have to assume that all the fans or posters here can see the same thing. The interesting thing is, they don't. It could be selective memory due to a bias, or some sort of irrational like or dislike for a player, but regardless of the subconscious or conscious choices made, different viewpoints of the same plays is the outcome.

For example, did Bozak kick the puck in during the Canes game? I say he knowingly repositioned his foot to push the puck into the net, which makes the final call correct in my mind. Others do not agree. This is a type of play I'm attempting to find the truth about, but just in a larger more comprehensive scale.

I would imagine that over time, we would see an overall trend of specific players and be able to formulate opinions based completely on facts and not bias, which I think is an inherent problem in the world of spectator sports. It's not necessarily a bad thing to be a little blind as a fan, but I think a better fan would be able to see all sides of a player, which can be agreed upon via consensus. Agreeing to disagree is also still possible.

The most scrutinized players on this team (Phaneuf/Kessel) seem to divide fans here on HFBoards. Whether or not that's just the vocal minority ragging on either player or if it's actually indicative of their overall play within games deserves a bit of study (at least I find it interesting).

Kessel, for example, is said to be a floater and plays a soft defensive game, which is a detriment to himself and the team. However, I ask the question of whether or not his 'floating' is actually determining the course of the game in a relevant way. This is what interests me the most. Once the question of whether or not he's a 'floater' is answered, then one has to ask the question above. Since the determinant of games is goals, has his floating contributed to less or more goals? How? Why? This is a cause for debate that could potentially be answered with replays.

Moreover, goals\assists, turnovers leading to goals, etc., I think, are just too big of factors that will create a bias (probably not the right word, but I am tired) and tamper with your results.

I disagree. Being able to see a truncated version of why the goal went in or why the assist was successful or why the turn over happened, will allow people to see individual skills being displayed. Suppose the vote I've posted has Kessel 'winning' the selection process. He deflects the puck and gets it into the net. This alone can be deconstructed. It does not matter that Kadri's hard work on the boards allowed him to pass the puck off to Bozak and that Bozak's foresight allowed him to pass the puck directly on Kessel's stick. All that matters is that Kessel was able to move into the right position, get wood on the puck, and redirect it into the net because we're looking at Kessel only. These are observable things, but again, everyone sees the play differently and this is what I'm attempting to 'nudge' in a more 'truthful' direction. It's not a case of "Kessel is amazing!" and ignoring everyone else's play (this would be bad), it's simply that we have elected to ignore everyone else for this compilation. Therefore, it wouldn't matter that the Montreal defender could not clear the puck because Phaneuf blocked the clearing 30 seconds before.

Unless you mean something entirely different of course.

This then turns into whether or not people are capable of seeing the 'how' of a play and the 'why' of it's goodness or badness. It is a difficult thing to attempt to 'cut' the video in such a way that shows what actually happened, but my way of cutting will show a fair margin around the actually plays. In the Phaneuf video example in my first post, most of his plays were very simple to cut out, because most of the things he did were general basic things that every player or defenseman should be doing. Other plays or behaviour may not be as easily determined or seen.

However, this then becomes a question of whether or not you can trust my editing abilities, which you have no real proof of as being good or bad. As such, I will try my best, but again, there are no guarantees.

Nevertheless, I appreciate your effort. But, I just don't think this will work in a one-game sample size.

Thank you. However, I will try to do every Saturday's game and there are 11 left to be recorded. Another questionable problem here is that the Leafs tend to do poorly on HNIC games. However, it's better than nothing and I'm certainly not going to do every single game due to time constraints.

 

[THHT]

There is nothing Subjective of Kessel avoiding the areas of the ice that contact can occur...... watching him pull chute on several plays a game would show up along with skating a wide circle when the puck heads south to avoid getting back and possible contact. I have never seen a player who turns his back to the puck so much even if the D zone.

This is serious question:

Why does that behaviour bother you about Kessel?

Also, can you explain or at least surmise why he does it?

I guarantee you'll get different answers across the board. This is the type of player behaviour that I'm attempting to look out for and placing in my videos. But the problem becomes whether or not you or I or someone else believes and sees the same thing and how it effects our 'like' or 'dislike' for that player. Again, I guarantee the answers will vary. Then the debate becomes whether or not such behaviour is truly detrimental to the overall success or failure of the Leafs. The problem is, no one can 100% accurately determine what could or could not have happened if Kessel did or did not do A or B or C. If he went into dirty areas maybe we'd have more possession of the puck or maybe he could create more chances.

I'm not concerned with what could have been. I'm concerned with what actually happened and how it's perceived. This is the basic foundation of understanding into areas of how it actually effects the overall consistency and success of the Leafs, which only comes after a consensus can be reached of what is actually happening.

 

[THHT]

You should just extrapolate Phaneuf. I have my my own criticisms of the guy but when I isolate him he looks pretty good. Still makes questionable decisions *with* the puck and shouldn't be playing 25+ minutes a night though.

It's probably going to be Phaneuf, but that could change after tomorrow's game.

And your concerns of his play and TOI are well-founded (in varying degrees of frequency) and I think that's a healthy thing to be doing. If there's anything true about players in the league, it's that none of them are perfect. Important perspective to have.

I'd also be interested in a Kostka one to see just how ineffective his 25:00TOI/G or 5:00PPTOI/G really are.

I may limit any future polls to the most debated players to make this more focused. I have no interest in showing the play of a guy who has played 10 games in the NHL and may not be here for long.

I'd say Kulemin; he deserves exposure for the positive things he does away from the puck.

He'd be my personal choice if I was doing this for myself as well.

 

[1995]

Komarov!

 

[Phion Keneuf]

Kulemin!