Movies: Must see science fiction

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Speculative fiction is a broad category of fiction encompassing genres with certain elements that do not exist in the real world, often in the context of supernatural, futuristic or other imaginative themes.

Speculative fiction can be a subset of science fiction and often is. But science fiction can go much further. ... Science fiction can also be used to give more plausibility to fantasy stories. By replacing magic with technology, fairy tale stories (such as Star Wars) can be made more believable.
 

Osprey

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Laser cats is science fiction but it's not a particular good example.

NyQuil interrupts this debate with a silly example that's full of truth.

I'm inclined to believe that the science fiction genre includes the space fantasy sub-genre and the hardcore/serious science fiction sub-genre and that it can be easy for many of us (me included) to often just say "science fiction" when we're really referring to the hardcore/serious stuff, especially when that's what we prefer.

Perhaps we can agree that Star Wars is very casual-sci-fi, not serious sci-fi?
 
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Tawnos

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NyQuil interrupts this debate with a silly example that's full of truth.

I'm inclined to believe that the science fiction genre includes the space fantasy sub-genre and the hardcore/serious science fiction sub-genre and that it can be easy for many of us (me included) to often just say "science fiction" when we're really referring to the hardcore/serious stuff, especially when that's what we prefer.

Perhaps we can agree that Star Wars is very casual-sci-fi, not serious sci-fi?

Hard science fiction (Moon) is definitely a sub genre of the whole thing. So is cyberpunk (Tron). So is post-apocalyptic (Mad Max). So is afrofuturism (Last Angel of History). So is tech noir (Blade Runner). Etc etc.

Space opera is also one.

If you want to lump the less serious stuff into “casual” I can agree with that.
 

NyQuil

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Or a maybe a better example, Dune. Basically there is little link to the origins of humanity, so it's hard to call it a "speculative future". They also have space travel and advanced technology, but they don't really delve into the science of it. I mean if I recall correctly Dune has this weird setup where everyone has personal shield generators which render ballistic/laser/etc weapons ineffective so they all fight with... knives?

Is Dune not sci-fi?

What's interesting about the Dune series is the impact of ecology and environment on human evolution.

The Fremen and the Sardaukar are considered the pinnacle of warfare (given the convenient caveat imposed by the limitations of technology and weaponry) due to the harsh environmental conditions of their upbringing and the associated zealous religious fanaticism.

Frank Herbert later explores what happens to the Fremen as they achieve supremacy over the universe - they terraform Arrakis in accordance with their (planted) religious prophecies. Without the unifying struggle for water, they end up a pale imitation of a once great people and are referred to by Leto II as "Museum Fremen" who ape the traditions of their ancestors with no real concept of their significance. The film ends with them achieving victory - but it's a hollow one in the book series that is essentially diluted over thousands of years under Paul (briefly) and then his son Leto II.

When Dune was written, the ecological movement was in its infancy, with the seminal work Silent Spring by Rachel Carson having only been published three years prior. Considering the 10+ years that Herbert took in preparing to write Dune, he was at the forefront of asking questions about ecology and its effects on societal and human development.

Ultimately Herbert asks a number of interesting questions around the potential of human thought in the absence of thinking technology, the impact of prescience on governance and religion, the ramifications of galactic reliance upon a single commodity and the associations between environment, ecology, society and language.

He employs massive time scales to look at long-term impacts of short-term decisions.

From an origin point of view, the Atreides are literal descendants of Agamemnon, as Alia discovers when probing her memories.

In Children of Dune, by Frank Herbert, right before Alia began one of her internal conversations with the ego-memory of Baron Vladimir Harkonnen an ego-memory called "Agamemnon" begged for some attention.

Therefore, Agamemnon seems to exist in the universe created by Frank Herbert, but he could yet be a different character. It is very likely that the ego-memory Agamemnon is meant to be that of the historical King Agamemnon of the House of Atreus.

Brian Herbert bastardized this interpretation by inventing a new character called Agamemnon. My God he did a lot of damage to the Dune property.

When you say "they don't really go into the science of it", it's because Dune really isn't "hard" science fiction that relies upon the existing laws of physics as we know them. He avoids getting caught up in the limitations offered by a contemporary scientific perspective.

Meanwhile, an author like Alistair Reynolds (who is also an astrophysicist) probes a galactic civilization where one cannot exceed the speed of light, and thus those who ply their trade by moving across the stars accrue massive time debts in stasis. He explores the culture of these "Ultras" relative to the other societal factions that exist in his Revelation Space universe.

One really funny lesson is in the book Neuromancer, which is fantastic BTW, by William Gibson. He makes the mistake of using units in his novel, which ends up looking comically anachronistic within a very short period of time.

The person who stole the RAM chips from his computer is later killed for the same 3MB of RAM.

Whoops! I think most science-fiction authors now know better than to use existing units if they are talking about the future.
 
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Pranzo Oltranzista

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Why is this still a debate? Star Wars is not science-fiction.

"It is relatively easy, on the other hand, to demonstrate what science fiction is not. It isn't, for instance, fiction about science; some fine science fiction contains no detectable science at all. It isn't a form of prophecy, though no less an authority than Hugo Gernsback seems to have thought it was - thus the slogan on the masthead of his first science-fiction magazine, Amazing Stories, "Extravagant Fiction Today, Cold Fact Tomorrow". Above all, science fiction is not, is positively not, fantasy."
- Frederick Pohl. The Study of Science Fiction: A Modest Proposal. 1997
Star Wars is Fantasy. Alien (or Xtro) is both horror and science-fiction. Fantasy and science-fiction are contradictions, a film cannot be both.

"The crucial difference between SF and HF is that SF assumptions for alien worlds or for the future do not contradict the present state of knowledge or, if they do, formally dispose of the contradiction - e.g, speed faster than light - with pseudoscientific explanations; while HF, as a branch of Fantasy, makes assumptions which disregard scientific knowledge or contradict it in frankly unscientific ways. On the one side, speculation; on the other, irrationnality. It is also true of Fantasy, however, that the system must be logically coherent within itself: there is no room for surrealist intrusions."
- Hans Joachim Alpers. Loincloth, Double Ax, and Magic: "Heroic Fantasy" and Related Genres

I used to be an intellectual myself. And back then, I used to distinguish between genres by using the world models they were set upon. Fantasy uses a unified non-mimetic world model (see above). Coppola uses a mimetic world model - where what is understood as "reality" mirrors what we know of it in real life. Jason Voorhees exists in an alternate world model - in which supernatural elements are conflicting with otherwise mimetic logic. Science-fiction is set in what some people who care enough to read about things before saying what this and that is or is not called a novum world model - in which supernatural or conflicting elements are justified by a pseudo-logic expanded and continuous from the mimetic world model.

I know this sounds really pompous (sauce was consciously added), but I didn't see a way I could go back to my (old) class notes and do otherwise - because yeah, I used to teach a Univesity level class on science-fiction films. It was a blast.
 
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RandV

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One really funny lesson is in the book Neuromancer, which is fantastic BTW, by William Gibson. He makes the mistake of using units in his novel, which ends up looking comically anachronistic within a very short period of time.

The person who stole the RAM chips from his computer is later killed for the same 3MB of RAM.

Whoops! I think most science-fiction authors now know better than to use existing units if they are talking about the future.

The Dune stuff is interesting but just wanted to reply to this part as this is something that gets me from time to time. I'm not well versed in science fiction authors, just an avid reader with a kindle and I subscribe to an service called bookbub that sends me a daily email with deals in my genre's (fantasy and sci-fi). This sends me everything from random junk to all-time classics, so with the latter I'll click the link see all kinds of high praise for this masterpiece so I click buy. Sometimes it works out great, like I really loved Cliffard D. Simak's book Waystation. But his most well regarded work seems to be a book called City so I try that... and not to begrudge people trying to predict the future from the 40's/50's but damn :laugh:. Another one that just crossed my path is Kurt Vonnegut's The Sirens of Titan.

Normally I don't leave books unfinished but with ones like these they're so bonkers that I only get a little ways into them before moving onto something else. And generally this is my preferred ballpark for science fiction. While we're talking a lot about Star Wars I don't really prefer the unrecognizable future with big galactic empires blowing everything up side of sci-fi, I more prefer the 'near future' stuff from classics like 2001 a Space Odyssey to modern titles like The Expanse.
 

Eisen

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I completely disagree with any framing of Star Wars as science fiction, it's a space fantasy. Star Wars does not contain any science and it is not speculative fiction (i.e. speculative of the future of humanity and technology) which is the base requirement of the genre. Star Wars has no speculative fiction involved at all, it's purely a fantasy story set in space, and does not attempt to explain any of the technology in the series from a scientific standpoint or even a faux-science standpoint (like Technobabble used so often in Star Trek for example). The Star Wars universe doesn't even adhere to even the most basic laws of physics (i.e. like in TFA where people see planets explode from many lightyears away in real time) or attempt to explain how anything works. It's a fantasy story disguised with science fiction elements because Lucas borrowed heavily from 1950s science fiction as one of his inspirations, but he wasn't trying to make an actual science fiction story.
There are spaceships and androids. The term science fiction is fuzzy but those two things are clear indicators, they don't run on magic, you see people building them. You could just as well argue that it's scifi with fantasy elements.
 

Eisen

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NyQuil interrupts this debate with a silly example that's full of truth.

I'm inclined to believe that the science fiction genre includes the space fantasy sub-genre and the hardcore/serious science fiction sub-genre and that it can be easy for many of us (me included) to often just say "science fiction" when we're really referring to the hardcore/serious stuff, especially when that's what we prefer.

Perhaps we can agree that Star Wars is very casual-sci-fi, not serious sci-fi?
I'd sign that.
 

Osprey

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Why is this still a debate? Star Wars is not science-fiction.

Star Wars is Fantasy. Alien (or Xtro) is both horror and science-fiction. Fantasy and science-fiction are contradictions, a film cannot be both.
It's still a debate because Star Wars doesn't fit into just one category, just as Alien doesn't. As you suggested, Alien has elements of sci-fi and elements of horror, so we consider it a member of both genres, or a sci-fi horror, for short. Star Wars has elements of sci-fi and elements of fantasy. While sci-fi is about technology and fantasy is about magic, Star Wars features both co-existing. There are many examples of advanced technology, like the Death Stars, Star Destroyers, AT-ATs, the Millennium Falcon, Luke's robotic arm and the droids. In fact, that's the bulk of the OT. Technology outnumbers magic in screen time. In fact, it wouldn't be that hard to remove the Force from the entire trilogy (and just have Luke utilize skill, intuition and technology), in which case you'd have something that's unquestionably science fiction. I don't think that adding a magical property like the Force invalidates all of that and makes it purely and only a work of fantasy. I don't see why Star Wars can't be considered a member of both genres. Insisting that it has to be one or the other seems a bit pedantic to me. There are always going to some works that blur the line and Star Wars blurs the line between science fiction and fantasy so well that we're having this intense debate over it. It doesn't seem necessarily wrong to me to call it either genre, though it might be better to count it as the mixed genre "science fantasy" (just as calling Alien a "sci-fi horror" feels more descriptive than just "sci-fi" or "horror").
 
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Pranzo Oltranzista

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It's still a debate because Star Wars doesn't fit into just one category, just as Alien doesn't. As you suggested, Alien has elements of sci-fi and elements of horror, so we consider it a member of both genres, or a sci-fi horror, for short. Star Wars has elements of sci-fi and elements of fantasy. While sci-fi is about technology and fantasy is about magic, Star Wars features both co-existing. There are many examples of advanced technology, like the Death Stars, Star Destroyers, AT-ATs, the Millennium Falcon, Luke's robotic arm and the droids. In fact, that's the bulk of the OT. Technology outnumbers magic in screen time. In fact, it wouldn't be that hard to remove the Force from the entire trilogy (and just have Luke utilize skill, intuition and technology), in which case you'd have something that's unquestionably science fiction. I don't think that adding a magical property like the Force invalidates all of that and makes it purely and only a work of fantasy. I don't see why Star Wars can't be considered a member of both genres. Insisting that it has to be one or the other seems a bit pedantic to me. There are always going to some works that blur the line and Star Wars blurs the line between science fiction and fantasy so well that we're having this intense debate over it. It doesn't seem necessarily wrong to me to call it either genre, though it might be better to count it as the mixed genre "science fantasy" (just as calling Alien a "sci-fi horror" feels more descriptive than just "sci-fi" or "horror").

Nope, science-fiction and fantasy are contradictory and opposite to each other. It's not just Star Wars, it's just not an option.
 

NyQuil

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Nope, science-fiction and fantasy are contradictory and opposite to each other. It's not just Star Wars, it's just not an option.

Well, Dune is an interesting parallel.

In Dune, the "miraculous" powers of the Atreides (and the Guild Navigators and the Bene Gesserit) are rooted in genetic engineering and the use of a chemical catalyst in the form of a unique compound, the spice melange.

Now with the Force, the quasi-religious fantastical elements are not articulated specifically...at first, until George Lucas introduces his pseudo-scientific explanation in the form of the microscopic symbiotic midichlorian life forms that exist in large numbers in the cells of the Jedi.

At which point does the "fantastic" elements give way to the "scientific"? Or is the fact that this was a retcon situation where it was never originally developed from a science fiction perspective thus essentially eliminating the possibility.

Now obviously this was a ham-fisted explanation that most people hated, but it begs the question nevertheless.

In any event, I don't tend to get hung up too much on debates around labels.
 
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Blender

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Well, Dune is an interesting parallel.

In Dune, the "miraculous" powers of the Atreides (and the Guild Navigators and the Bene Gesserit) are rooted in genetic engineering and the use of a chemical catalyst in the form of a unique compound, the spice melange.

Now with the Force, the quasi-religious fantastical elements are not articulated specifically...at first, until George Lucas introduces his pseudo-scientific explanation in the form of the microscopic symbiotic midichlorian life forms that exist in large numbers in the cells of the Jedi.

At which point does the "fantastic" elements give way to the "scientific"? Or is the fact that this was a retcon situation where it was never originally developed from a science fiction perspective thus essentially eliminating the possibility.

Now obviously this was a ham-fisted explanation that most people hated, but it begs the question nevertheless.

In any event, I don't tend to get hung up too much on debates around labels.
I think Dune is science fiction with some fantasy elements, and Star Wars is fantasy with some science fiction elements. Lucas did not set out to make a science fiction movie, and therefore did not care about anything being explainable, it just was because he wanted that way. The "explanations" he forced into the story in the PT were worse than if he had just left it as unexplained magic, but so many people had been asking for years how this stuff works as if it were actual science fiction, so he tried to finally fit an explanation into things that were never intended to be explainable.
 
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Blender

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No one is asking you to agree.

Here's the thing... the people who classify it as science fiction aren't trying to assign "scientific legitimacy" to it in the first place. I could just as easily say that it doesn't need fans excluding it from the genre based on a restrictive definition that only invites making distinctions without differences.

While I personally consider all of the movies you listed as science fiction, and it's a really good list, several movies in that list have just as little description of the science behind it as Star Wars does. Namely, Alien and Aliens, Starship Troopers, The Fifth Element, Inception, Planet of the Apes, and The Thing. Not all that much about how the Genesis device from Wrath of Khan actually reorganizes matter either. It just works, same as hyperdrives in Star Wars, which the movies give us some details about, but not everything. The only real difference between these movies and Star Wars is that Star Wars doesn't take place in our present or future. In my opinion, when it comes to classification, that's a distinction without a difference.
It doesn't need a "description of the science" or even a thorough explanation of the science in the movie, it just needs to be explainable by science and not directly contradict our current understanding of science. Science fiction certainly isn't perfect at this, but usually the core concepts of the universe are grounded in plausible explanations and then you have other concepts introduced for plot purposes that aren't always. The core concepts of the Star Wars universe aren't really explainable.

The setting of Alien and Aliens is actually not a bad speculation about the near future of long distance space travel with the cryosleep, commercial mining and shipping, etc. The creature itself definitely stretches the imagination, but that is the point of it. Starship Troopers is satire, but it's not rooted in fantasy elements it's spoofing pretty common science fiction tropes. I think The Fifth Element is actually excellent science fiction and very underrated, the setting and universe is a very interesting take on what the future could look like if our culture doesn't change that much but our technology gets much better. Inception is grounded in reality in that people can learn to influence their dreams, but the movie takes that further with sharing dreams with others and the elements that come with that. Planet of the Apes (1968) is pretty explainable, I don't understand why that one has been pointed out here, it's well regarded for its depiction of faster than light travel and its stretched but interesting take on other primates developing new traits over time. The Thing is probably the weakest movie you've listed from a science fiction perspective, but it's actually pretty good if you concede to the existence of the creature. The Thing has a very bleak ending, but based on the scientific information delivered in the film it's probably not even hopeless enough, we'd be completely f***ed if that creature landed on earth and Blair's calculations would happen whether they kept it on the base or not, as Antarctica is not devoid of life.

The Genesis Device from Star Trek has roots in theoretical terraforming technology, everything is just accelerated for the movie. It doesn't need to be explained in the movie, it's a plausible technology that has been fictionalized. Hyperspace is an entirely fictional concept of faster than light travel that is not explainable because nothing involved in it is real, but it was used a lot in early science fiction and that is where Lucas borrowed it from. I'm not saying hyperspace being implausible has any impact on the classification of Star Wars either, just that no one thought or cared about plausibility when making it. Other science fiction stories that used hyperspace typically had most other things as plausible elements, and the hyperspace aspect was thrown in to get around faster than light travel limitations.
 

Osprey

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Nope, science-fiction and fantasy are contradictory and opposite to each other. It's not just Star Wars, it's just not an option.

Whether they're contradictory or not, they can co-exist, which is to say that a work of fiction can have elements of both. For example, Star Trek has lots of sci-fi elements, but also supernatural elements like Q and all of the rest of the beings with god-like powers. A purist might argue that those latter elements invalidate it from being sci-fi and makes it a work of fantasy, but most fans would probably still consider it sci-fi in spite of them.
 

Tawnos

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Hyperspace travel isn't really any less plausible than warp. Who told you that? The existence of hyperspace is a well-established theory of physics, so saying "nothing involved in it is real" isn't correct. Using it for travel is a natural extension of those theories. Interstellar even uses hyperspace travel as a specific concept, although it requires traveling through a large, rotating black hole. Point being, the concept is rooted in real things physicists look at.

There are many, many scientifically plausible concepts in Star Wars besides interstellar travel. Hell, the galaxy is filled with AI.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that those other movies are science fiction. What I don't agree with is that the scientific bonafides are really much stronger than what we get from Star Wars. Yes, there are times that Star Wars will put dramatic license before science (think ballistic paths taken by weapons in TLJ). Aside from maybe the Force itself, the entirety of the Star Wars galaxy is explainable through extensions of real scientific concepts.
 

Pranzo Oltranzista

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Whether they're contradictory or not, they can co-exist

Well, not from a theoretical standpoint. I mean, Raoul Ruiz argued that a fiction film was also a documentary, but it only was a rhetorical exercice: Star Wars is a document of Mark Hamill's face at the time of filming. If you exclude the concept of "docufiction", the basic understanding of fiction and documentary are opposite to one another. Texas Chainsaw Massacre is "based on true events", but not however both fiction and documentary.

I'll admit I don't remember the midichlorian stuff and was only arguing based on the original trilogy.
 

Blender

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Hyperspace travel isn't really any less plausible than warp. Who told you that? The existence of hyperspace is a well-established theory of physics, so saying "nothing involved in it is real" isn't correct. Using it for travel is a natural extension of those theories. Interstellar even uses hyperspace travel as a specific concept, although it requires traveling through a large, rotating black hole. Point being, the concept is rooted in real things physicists look at.

There are many, many scientifically plausible concepts in Star Wars besides interstellar travel. Hell, the galaxy is filled with AI.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that those other movies are science fiction. What I don't agree with is that the scientific bonafides are really much stronger than what we get from Star Wars. Yes, there are times that Star Wars will put dramatic license before science (think ballistic paths taken by weapons in TLJ). Aside from maybe the Force itself, the entirety of the Star Wars galaxy is explainable through extensions of real scientific concepts.
Hyperspace is not "well-established". People have speculated about alternate dimensions being possible, but there is absolutely nothing well-established about hyperspace and requires entering a dimension that does not follow the laws of physics. Also, the hyperdrive depicted in Star Wars does not even follow how an actual hyperdrive would work (if possible), the speculated hyperdrive is a jump drive that would instantaneously transport you from one place to another. The propulsion in Star Wars does not make sense as they have tried to explain since. Warp drive does not violate the laws of physics and is actually a well studied faster than light type of travel, with the Alcubierre drive being the best current model. The big problem is the energy requirements, which Star Trek always waved away with a fictional substance.
 

Osprey

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I just read that Ex Machina will be leaving Netflix on July 25th. That's this Saturday. If you haven't seen one of the best sci-fis of the last decade, now's the time to do it.
 
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McOilers97

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I just read that Ex Machina will be leaving Netflix on July 25th. That's this Saturday. If you haven't seen one of the best sci-fis of the last decade, now's the time to do it.

My favorite movie of the 2010s, period.

I believe it is on Amazon Prime though, so for anyone that has both Netflix and Amazon, I think you'll still be able to access it.
 

Blender

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Not a movie, but The Expanse is by far the best science fiction series in production right now.
 

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