Murray v Nolan on development

[haseoke39]

What's being done with Reinhart is normal.

I don't know of many top line players who are circulated between the press box and the fourth line as a way of developing them.

I'm also a little confused as to what the point is of having him in the press box if the goal is to give him his 9 games and then send him back down. If the goal is just to give him a taste and get him down to juniors, why wouldn't they just play him? Why drag it out extra games? This is what they did with Zadarov last year too, and it was the same cycle Grigorenko was put in where he was essentially put in a position to fail.

I'm just not sure what he's supposed to be getting out of this experience other than frustrated.

 

[Baccus]

Are people really arguing that keeping players in the press box is how you properly develop them?

Yes, clearly, from all the people actually saying that...in other words, nobody.

 

[tsujimoto74]

What's being done with Reinhart is normal.

The Zadorov situation is an entirely different thing

Is it really? Kid can't even get 4th line minutes with regularity and isn't getting any special teams time. The only recent scenario I can think of where a top pick was used in such sparing fashion is Seguin, and that was because he had a roster full of actual players in front of him, who were already a very good team without him. Why do Ennis and Hodgson deserve more/better opportunities than Reinhart?

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

Is it really? Kid can't even get 4th line minutes with regularity and isn't getting any special teams time. The only recent scenario I can think of where a top pick was used in such sparing fashion is Seguin, and that was because he had a roster full of actual players in front of him, who were already a very good team without him. Why do Ennis and Hodgson deserve more/better opportunities than Reinhart?

because right now Reinhart is an undersized 18 year old still adjusting to the speed of the NHL and the last place he needs to find himself is head to head with opposing teams best players

the only thing thats going to negatively impact his development this season is a long term injury

 

[Baccus]

Is it really? Kid can't even get 4th line minutes with regularity and isn't getting any special teams time. The only recent scenario I can think of where a top pick was used in such sparing fashion is Seguin, and that was because he had a roster full of actual players in front of him, who were already a very good team without him. Why do Ennis and Hodgson deserve more/better opportunities than Reinhart?

You mean the Sabres/Nolan is playing established/veteran NHL'ers over an 18 yr old in certain situations? Yes, that never happens anywhere.

Reinhart's biggest saving grace so far is simply that he's good defensively, so he's not personally giving up goals, other than that, while he clearly shows the passing/vision ability, he can't drive the play in his current physical status/team situation. So what's the problem?

I wouldn't be surprised if he goes back to junior (or maybe the KHL for fun), or if he stays in the NHL and gets limited minutes the whole year. The NHL shouldn't be a development league, even when you're the worst team in the league.

Now personally, I wouldn't mind seeing him on the PP, because he's clearly a great passer and has the vision, is it hampering his development? No, because he's not here to be a PP specialist, he's here to be a top center.

 

[Bps21*]

Ristolainen getting zero PP time with this 0 for the year PP is the worst bit.

 

[ZeroPT*]

I don't disagree with JoshJull that this is overblown by some but another part of sheltering a youngster is giving him opportunity to succeed. Like giving them offensive zone starts against weaker competition. Reinhart consistently playing 7-8 minutes a night isn't a bad thing, but I feel like they could do some better things by putting him on a 3rd scoring line and letting him start in the offensive zone and feast on weaker opposition.

As for Risto, I'd say he probably could get some PP time and that at his stage of his development he should be given slightly more responsibility.

 

[zman]

I'm ok with Nolan leading this terrible club into the 2015 draft but then Murray and the brass should get rid of him. I'd like to see a top notch/proven winner hired here who employs a professional system that is tried and true. This is the worst puck possession team in the history of hockey. Get someone here who can teach this. Also, Let some of these young kids play meaningful minutes and get experience here.

 

[Jame]

What's being done with Reinhart is normal.

The Zadorov situation is an entirely different thing

really?

Where did Landeskog play? In the top 6, getting ~17-18 minutes a night from day 1
RNH? right into a top 6 spot 18+ a night...

Let me know when you find me a top 2 pick who came right to the NHL and played 8 minutes a night on a line with 4th liners...

Even when Seguin joined a contender, he found "3rd line" minutes with Ryder and Recchi immediately, getting 12-14 minutes a night.

Playing Reinhart with McCormick and Desuckier is just stupid given the inept play we have at center right now.

 

[Dreakon13]

I'll be disappointed if Reinhart stays up. With that in mind, I'm cool with him getting limited minutes for the rest of his short stay this season... he's got some growing to do still and living the life of an NHLer on and off the ice for a few weeks is enough for now. Especially on this team.

 

[Dunkster19]

If they are going to have Reinhart up here I don't see what good it does to play him on the 4th line with 4th line talents. I also have a hard time understanding all the talk of him being too small-
Reinhart 6' 1" 185 lbs

Ennis 5'9" 169lbs
Gionta 5'11"" 189 lbs
T. Mitchel 5'11" 189lbs
Hodgson 6'0" 192 lbs
Girgensons 6'1" 190 lbs
Flynn 6'1" 180 lbs
Benoit 5'11" 191 lbs

I have watched this kid play in every home pre season game and home regular season game. It is his skating that would be my biggest concern. He is a bit slow to react to the speed of the NHL game also. John Tavaris was a horrible skater his first year and he improved that aspect of his game dramatically. Joe Thornton played 55 games his first year scoring 3 goals and 4 assists.
He has the same number og goals as Moulson, Hodgson, Stewart and Stafford with less minutes played and with lesser talents on the wings.
I am not saying he has to stay up but if you are going to dress him don't waste the 9 games you are giving him.
If people are going to continue to say he has to be sent down because of his size, we are going to have a lot of guys that should be sent to Rochester if that is the criteria.

 

[Gras]

If they are going to have Reinhart up here I don't see what good it does to play him on the 4th line with 4th line talents. I also have a hard time understanding all the talk of him being too small-
Reinhart 6' 1" 185 lbs

Ennis 5'9" 169lbs
Gionta 5'11"" 189 lbs
T. Mitchel 5'11" 189lbs
Hodgson 6'0" 192 lbs
Girgensons 6'1" 190 lbs
Flynn 6'1" 180 lbs
Benoit 5'11" 191 lbs

I have watched this kid play in every home pre season game and home regular season game. It is his skating that would be my biggest concern. He is a bit slow to react to the speed of the NHL game also. John Tavaris was a horrible skater his first year and he improved that aspect of his game dramatically. Joe Thornton played 55 games his first year scoring 3 goals and 4 assists.
He has the same number og goals as Moulson, Hodgson, Stewart and Stafford with less minutes played and with lesser talents on the wings.
I am not saying he has to stay up but if you are going to dress him don't waste the 9 games you are giving him.
If people are going to continue to say he has to be sent down because of his size, we are going to have a lot of guys that should be sent to Rochester if that is the criteria.

So because hes a similar height and weight he's just as strong? Doesn't really work that way.

 

[haseoke39]

Really, all I'm asking for our best prospect since Turgeon(?) are third line minutes with competent linemates, majority offensive zone starts, and some powerplay time on the second unit now and then. THAT would be perfectly normal. He could do all that and still only be a minor featured player on the team and maybe get sent down after 9 games, but you'd be giving him a chance to practice what he's supposed to do best against the talent he needs to do it against. As it is, I don't know if he'll have gained that much in terms of experience by the time he gets sent back down - he'll have spent his time basically trying to do nothing but work harder with linemates who seriously shouldn't even be in the league. Work ethic is a big thing to learn coming into the NHL, but it's not the only thing.

And for another thing, "earning your ice time" only goes so far. When you have the most important player in the organization playing for you for maybe nine games only, and he's not embarrassing you out there, you play him a reasonable amount to give him a learning opportunity. If it's truly a try-out, you bite the bullet and you give that kid a limited opportunity. If it's not a try-out, and you truly intend to play him all year as your 13th forward, you have much deeper development issues.

And Zadarov I don't even know what to say. Basically the only reason to defend what's happening is if you believe some insidious conspiracy is afoot and his agent is pulling strings to keep him here. Not impossible, but not something I'm gonna buy forever without proof. You finally play him and you give him SIX minutes? That's almost spiteful.

 

[CatsforReinhart]

I'm fairly disappointed in Reinhart and Zads being up here as a 13th forward and a 7th defenseman who spend more time on the bench than actually developing. This is the last franchise in the league that can afford to develop its youth poorly. If I had to guess, I would assume Nolan doesn't want them on his roster at this point, which is fine, but Murray does. I can't imagine this is a coordinated effort to waste their time.

The blame may lie equally between them, but since the coach answers to the GM and Nolan's job is to develop youth, I wonder if this is an internal conflict we should worry about.

I find it interesting how people draw negative conclusions to a situation they really know nothing about and with all due respect have no idea what goes on behind close doors or the conversations between players, management and coaching staff.

 

[CatsforReinhart]

Really, all I'm asking for our best prospect since Turgeon(?) are third line minutes with competent linemates, majority offensive zone starts, and some powerplay time on the second unit now and then. THAT would be perfectly normal. He could do all that and still only be a minor featured player on the team and maybe get sent down after 9 games, but you'd be giving him a chance to practice what he's supposed to do best against the talent he needs to do it against. As it is, I don't know if he'll have gained that much in terms of experience by the time he gets sent back down - he'll have spent his time basically trying to do nothing but work harder with linemates who seriously shouldn't even be in the league. Work ethic is a big thing to learn coming into the NHL, but it's not the only thing.

And for another thing, "earning your ice time" only goes so far. When you have the most important player in the organization playing for you for maybe nine games only, and he's not embarrassing you out there, you play him a reasonable amount to give him a learning opportunity. If it's truly a try-out, you bite the bullet and you give that kid a limited opportunity. If it's not a try-out, and you truly intend to play him all year as your 13th forward, you have much deeper development issues.

And Zadarov I don't even know what to say. Basically the only reason to defend what's happening is if you believe some insidious conspiracy is afoot and his agent is pulling strings to keep him here. Not impossible, but not something I'm gonna buy forever without proof. You finally play him and you give him SIX minutes? That's almost spiteful.

You want proof but you draw your opinions and conclusions based on guesses or a belief you know what is better for this team the Nolan and Murray.

 

[haseoke39]

You want proof but you draw your opinions and conclusions based on guesses or a belief you know what is better for this team the Nolan and Murray.

Yes, between sitting in the press box and playing hockey, I know that playing hockey is better for a player. Nikita Zadorov is literally asking to be sent to juniors in the media. How many teams in the NHL have that problem? It's embarrassing, and that's reported, that's not guesswork.

Guesswork would be me saying that if I were Samson or Nikita, I'd be getting embarrassed and frustrated by this situation and feel like I was put in a position where I had to start trying to do things beyond myself if I wanted to have any real chance to play.

But it's not guesswork to say that no one in the NHL develops the second overall pick between the press box and fourth line, and no one gives a young future star six minutes of ice time in nine games as a way of developing them.

You can claim that all kinds of stuff goes on behind closed doors, but there's a credulity threshold where you look around the NHL and go, who the **** else is trying this with their kids?

 

[dkollidas]

I love Nolan. But if someone like Mike Babcock is available, Pegula should offer whatever it takes to get him here. Imagine THAT guy coaching these kids. Now that would be exciting.
As for this season. I get scratching him on the west coast trip. Anaheim, LA and SJ all have guys who could ruin Reinhart's season. Keep him on the bench for those games, let him play his games against less talented opponents, while still practicing and living the NHL lifestyle for a little while and then he's more prepared for the every-day NHL life when he does arrive next year.

Zadorov is an interesting case. I think they actually want to see how he'd care a bit against tougher, bigger competition.

Ristolainen will get the PP time, eventually, ease him into it. Don't put it all on his shoulders, he'll get there if only bc the vets are as bad as they are.

Nolan's not a bad coach, but he's going to give preference to the vets, that's the type of coach he is, but by mid-season/trade deadline I think we'll see Ristolainen and Girgensons with much larger roles and Reinhart & Zadorov in junior.

We've got to remember , we don't want these kids playing too many minutes right away... They might actually win a few games, and I don't want that, Murray doesn't want that, you don't want that... Maybe Nolan wants that, but that's the beauty of it, he's the only one who wants to win but his roles for our players itself limits our ability to win games. Enjoy it

 

[sba]

This is exactly the Ted Nolan that anyone with a brain expected to see. Hopefully he can spit out some cliches and we can all have a laugh while he destroys the growth/confidence of our important players who'll be here after he's fired.

 

[Baccus]

We need more hyperbole. Last post did a good job though.


Why would you expect winning veteran coaches like Babcock to want to play kids? When I think, who would be good putting up with youthful mistakes, Babcock does not come to mind...

 

[joshjull]

really?

Where did Landeskog play? In the top 6, getting ~17-18 minutes a night from day 1
RNH? right into a top 6 spot 18+ a night...

Let me know when you find me a top 2 pick who came right to the NHL and played 8 minutes a night on a line with 4th liners...

Even when Seguin joined a contender, he found "3rd line" minutes with Ryder and Recchi immediately, getting 12-14 minutes a night.

Playing Reinhart with McCormick and Desuckier is just stupid given the inept play we have at center right now.

Where did Toews, Malkin and Druin play the year after getting drafted?

Yes in the full spectrum of what teams have done with top picks, Reinhart's situation is normal.

I agree our center play is terrible right now. But the Sabres don't want to put it on an 18 year kid to fix the situation. They're being overly protective. It why they are trying Foligno at center again. I get why they are doing it even though it's frustrating to watch.

 

[Paxon]

Where did Toews, Malkin and Druin play the year after getting drafted?

Yes in the full spectrum of what teams have done with top picks, Reinhart's situation is normal.

I agree our center play is terrible right now. But the Sabres don't want to put it on an 18 year kid to fix the situation. They're being overly protective. It why they are trying Foligno at center again. I get why they are doing it even though it's frustrating to watch.

I fail to see how playing him on the 4th line without power play time protects him. It's rather absurd to me that he is being protected. The only thing he's being protected from is the achievement of his first NHL point. May as well be in juniors if he's going to be playing with Cody McCormick. What other players receive this "protection"?

 

[sba]

We need more hyperbole. Last post did a good job though.

Yes, the fact that they're not playing kids and they are a complete disaster in the area of X's and O's is complete hyperbole and exactly the two biggest areas that Nolan has a problem with.

I mean at least he's not organizing his own trades behind the GM's back yet, if you're looking for positives.

 

[1972]

Watch us draft McDavid and have Hodgson, Ennis and Moulson on the power play over him!

 

[joshjull]

I fail to see how playing him on the 4th line without power play time protects him. It's rather absurd to me that he is being protected. The only thing he's being protected from is the achievement of his first NHL point. May as well be in juniors if he's going to be playing with Cody McCormick. What other players receive this "protection"?

I not trying to convince you to like it.

 

[Gras]

I fail to see how playing him on the 4th line without power play time protects him. It's rather absurd to me that he is being protected. The only thing he's being protected from is the achievement of his first NHL point. May as well be in juniors if he's going to be playing with Cody McCormick. What other players receive this "protection"?

He wont magically fix the horrid PP, and it shouldn't be on him to, plus hes not strong enough yet, I don't think he'd fare well trying to dig the puck in the corners or play on the half wall.