Murray v Nolan on development

[haseoke39]

I'm fairly disappointed in Reinhart and Zads being up here as a 13th forward and a 7th defenseman who spend more time on the bench than actually developing. This is the last franchise in the league that can afford to develop its youth poorly. If I had to guess, I would assume Nolan doesn't want them on his roster at this point, which is fine, but Murray does. I can't imagine this is a coordinated effort to waste their time.

The blame may lie equally between them, but since the coach answers to the GM and Nolan's job is to develop youth, I wonder if this is an internal conflict we should worry about.

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[Myllz]

Reinhart will go down after his 9 games, so Murray doesn't really have a reason to pull him out now. Let him stay with the team until then. I assume a better decision on Zadorov will be made depending on how he does now that he's in the lineup.

 

[Beerz]

Nolan is like the parent that still walks their kid to their classroom in 3rd grade.

 

[Ruckus007]

Can we really say for sure there is a disconnect between the two? You could easily say Murray may not want them on the NHL team either but the Zadorov situation complicates things and Reinhart's draft status and strong offseason/preseason justifies the tryout?

Maybe there's some kind of philosophical conflict between the two, but I don't really see evidence one way or the other.

 

[Wisent42]

I'm thinking that they want these kids to travel and practice with the team as much as possible because they don't have a lot more to learn from juniors and can't go to the AHL. But they don't want them on the ice too much because that will only teach them how to lose.

But even so, it seems wierd. Why waste Reinhart's nine try-out games by playing him on a fourth line? Why not just play Flynn instead? And why seven D-men when Zads finally gets a shot? The only explanation I can come up with is that they don't want these kids to get hung out to dry.

 

[jBuds]

Murray needs to hire a coach who he is on the same page with.

This has been the biggest error thus far in Tim's tenure.

 

[Baccus]

I like how people complain when the kids are being protected, because throwing them to the wolves last year worked out so well for Regier & Rolston....

 

[joshjull]

Murray needs to hire a coach who he is on the same page with.

This has been the biggest error thus far in Tim's tenure.

Only probelm with this argument is it's based on the fallacy that Nolan and Murray aren't in sync.

 

[Beerz]

I like how people complain when the kids are being protected, because throwing them to the wolves last year worked out so well for Regier & Rolston....

There is a middle ground between throwing them to the wolves and keeping them on your teet.

 

[Baccus]

There is a middle ground between throwing them to the wolves and keeping them on your teet.

Indeed, and which side would you err on?

 

[Beerz]

Indeed, and which side would you err on?

Well my real issue is not giving Rinehart or Risto any PP time ..so I don't think there is much risk in having them overwhelmed.

Besides..I have no problem having them experience a little struggle and failure.

 

[joshjull]

I like how people complain when the kids are being protected, because throwing them to the wolves last year worked out so well for Regier & Rolston....

It is incredible. I mean I get wanting to see them instead of the filler we have in the lineup. But the reason Murray signed some of the filler like Mez and Benoit is to help shelter the youth.

What they are doing is pretty normal and shouldn't bring out the anger it does.

 

[joshjull]

There is a middle ground between throwing them to the wolves and keeping them on your teet.

That's true. But we are pretty early in the season. If by mid season Risto isn't on the PP. I'll be as annoyed as you are.

 

[Baccus]

It is incredible. I mean I get wanting to see them instead of the filler we have in the lineup. But the reason Murray signed some of the filler like Mez and Benoit is to help shelter the youth.

What they are doing is pretty normal and shouldn't bring out the anger it does.

Exactly. Name a good organization that doesn't keep the kids down/sheltered for longer than the "fans" would prefer.

 

[jvirk]

I don't think they have any differences in developing players to be honest. I think they share the similar philosophy of not throwing them to the wolves and letting them get bigger/stronger/faster and learn before they get heavier minutes.

BUT, I do believe one thing Nolan needs to be better about (after this season especially) is giving time to younger guys. If it's best to play guys like Grigo, Reinhart, Risto, Zads next season over some guys like Gionta, Meszaros/Benoit, etc...then he needs to do that. I feel like sometimes he gives this vision of being very anti-youth, but if that's the case he's in the wrong job. He should savor the opportunity to have these guys play soon (not this year obviously, but next season I see ALOT of our prospects needing heavier ice time).

Other than that, I have no problem w/ what is being done w/ Reinhart right now. I also do like Grigo and Armia being in Roch instead of Buf...I believe they're 2 very important parts to this team's future roster next season and beyond.

 

[Beerz]

That's true. But we are pretty early in the season. If by mid season Risto isn't on the PP. I'll be as annoyed as you are.

Perhaps my patience would be stronger if our PP was an absolute train wreck with the likes of Benoit, Mezaros, Hodgson, Stewart and Ennis.



And I see no negative in doing so.

 

[Paxon]

Exactly. Name a good organization that doesn't keep the kids down/sheltered for longer than the "fans" would prefer.

 

[Moncton man]

Posted this in the game day thread but figure it belongs here:

What is the purpose of the nine games that Zads and Samson are likely going to get? surely the sample size is too small for determining if they stay with the big league club or not. Zadarov is looked at as a bit of a project right? he has tools but needed more skating? So why not have him with the club for the year and spread his games the season (or even half). He gets to spend time with the parent club's coaching staff (including weight room and nutritionist) and probably ends up in the AHL next year. He isn't a player that was expected to jump right into the top four.

For Reinhart I think it is different, he should get a chance to show what he can do with top level players because that is where he is ultimately going to play. He surely belongs with Team Canada come World Junior time, but does he need to go back to Juniors before that? They know he can dominate there. I can see them spreading his games out to get him to the JR camp (rather than merely throw him in nine games straight) but really, what is he going to learn playing with the bottom six? They don't have the same abilities as top sixers and they should be comparing Reinhart to those players and how far away he is ability wise from cracking the top six.

 

[joshjull]

Perhaps my patience would be stronger if our PP was an absolute train wreck with the likes of Benoit, Mezaros, Hodgson, Stewart and Ennis.



And I see no negative in doing so.

The thinking is it's not fair to put it on the kids to fix any issues the team has at the moment. Let the vets and experienced youngsters sort it out. They're being protective. You would probably say overly so.

 

[Baccus]

If they get sent back, the 9 games is a "this is what it's like" wake up/slap in the face/whatever. For somebody like Samson, where his biggest issue is physical growth/strength/speed, which is something that will only happen with time, it's to see if he can survive without being overwhelmed. I think at best he's currently 'surviving' because he's solid defensively, but you won't see much successful offense from him.

For Zads, I think it's more a mental wake up, since he's physically ready, but he plays like a riverboat gambler, which isn't going to work. On top of whatever the junior/khl/nhl/somewhere issue is with him.

I can only assume Zads gets somewhere, assuming London/juniors. Reinhart is probably 50/50 at best at this point.

 

[Beerz]

The thinking is it's not fair to put it on the kids to fix any issues the team has at the moment. Let the vets and experienced youngsters sort it out. They're being protective. You would probably say overly so.

Correct. Especially with Risto.

 

[joshjull]

Posted this in the game day thread but figure it belongs here:

What is the purpose of the nine games that Zads and Samson are likely going to get? surely the sample size is too small for determining if they stay with the big league club or not. Zadarov is looked at as a bit of a project right? he has tools but needed more skating? So why not have him with the club for the year and spread his games the season (or even half). He gets to spend time with the parent club's coaching staff (including weight room and nutritionist) and probably ends up in the AHL next year. He isn't a player that was expected to jump right into the top four.

For Reinhart I think it is different, he should get a chance to show what he can do with top level players because that is where he is ultimately going to play. He surely belongs with Team Canada come World Junior time, but does he need to go back to Juniors before that? They know he can dominate there. I can see them spreading his games out to get him to the JR camp (rather than merely throw him in nine games straight) but really, what is he going to learn playing with the bottom six? They don't have the same abilities as top sixers and they should be comparing Reinhart to those players and how far away he is ability wise from cracking the top six.

The 9gms are frequently used by teams to give a young player a taste of the NHL. Game day prep, practices, video, etc. Obviously they get the game experience as well. After they are sent back the have a better understanding of what the need to work towards being a NHLer.

Other times teams use the 9gms as an extra couple weeks to decide on a player right on the edge of making the team out of camp. It gives them more time to sort out the decision.

I'm not sure which of those two Reinhart falls in. But I would lean towards the first.

 

[joshjull]

Correct. Especially with Risto.

Fair enough

 

[haseoke39]

Are people really arguing that keeping players in the press box is how you properly develop them?

 

[joshjull]

Are people really arguing that keeping players in the press box is how you properly develop them?

What's being done with Reinhart is normal.

The Zadorov situation is an entirely different thing