Murray and Muckler

[Micklebot]

And what has all this great drafting gotten us? All our most promising prospects under Murray are playing here and now. Which of these prospects is lighting up the league? Which one of these Murray draftees, aside from Karlsson, is being coveted around the league and making other franchises fanbases clamoring to somehow get them from us?

What do we have to show for it? A sub .500 team? There is SO much more to GMing then drafting. In fact, I would say that drafting is probably one of the least most important things.

People on this board will just never figure that out. It's always about the new shiny around here.

Well, Hoffman and Stone are both pacing at >20 goals in their rookie years, that's pretty good for guys drafted in the 5th and 6th rounds. Zibanejad is also on pace for >20. Our drafted prospects were the currency used to get a top line forward in Ryan. So, yes, strong drafting has paid dividends.

Ceci looks great, I'm sure lots of teams would love to add him to their lineups, lots of teams would also love to have Lazar on their teams, the fact that he's not lighting it up at 19 is inconsequential. Lehner is still among the top young goalies in the league, and is certainly coveted by many teams.

As for drafting being one of the least important things, I really can't agree. Who are you, Cliff Fletcher???

This team is hamstrung by the lowest budget in the league. It's led to the re-signings of Phillips and Michalek, rather than going out after more expensive free agents. We've also lost a top 4 Dman (who plays on our top pair) in Methot and can't go out and get a replacement, again because of the budget.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

Under this great drafting, with these great prospects, with the vaunted Murray system we have won one playoff round in a lockout year, have been a defensive gongshow unless our goaltenders play at a Hasek level and...have shown no improvement.

Maybe the problem wasn't just Muckler's poor scouting but also Murray being a really mediocre everything outside of coaching. He rode the best line in hockey to playoff semi-success (losing a finals is failure) and has us wallowing in mediocrity ever since. Yay?

 

[Back in Black]

The Senators were in the cup finals in 2007, 7 years ago. They didn't start the rebuild until the deadline in 2011 when they traded Fisher, Kovalev, Kelly and whatever else. Which means they've been in full rebuild mode since the 2011-2012 season.

People saying the Sens have been rebuilding for 7 years, or in your case, nearly a decade, is balderdash.

Call it what you want, Murray has been the GM since 2008 and we are still a mediocre team.

Time for a new approach, or do you like the idea of tanking every year!

 

[Stylizer1]

No we are not. The Oilers are the meme for all that is bad amongst hockey teams not because they missed the playoffs once or twice, but because they stacked up with top shelf talent and yet manage to continue to miss the playoffs year after year after year.

We have missed the playoffs a grand total of one year in a row.

Not every team we had over the years were the same. The team has been in a nose dive since 2011. Sure we still made the playoffs but at what cost.

IT made management think the team was better than they were (like after Edmonton's SCF run) They lost a star in Alfredson (EDM tradin Pronger). The following season the Sens lost another star in Spezza (EDM trading Smyth). Both Moves took out key peices in leadership that made them a good team. But for Edmonton they hit rock bottom right away and got top end talent through the draft. If Murray would of had those draft picks that Edmonton got here in Ottawa, I'm sure he would put the right team around them unlike how Edmonton, which is probably the least sought after city in professional sports, have very limited options on who might want to sign.

 

[ZekeA]

I wouldn't say Muckler emptied the farm, he just couldn't draft anyone worth a ****. In fact he typically refused to fork over what he needed to for anything useful at the deadline and always tried to hit the bargain bin for plugs like Arnason.

"Gesus":

Muckler didn't empty the farm then who did????????????????????

When Tim took over Binghamton they only had 1 AHL caliber player in the system~~~~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

An anybody that drafted B. Lee #9 overall says all there is about Mucklers drafting ability or lack there of~~~!!!!!!!

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

I wouldn't say Muckler emptied the farm, he just couldn't draft anyone worth a ****. In fact he typically refused to fork over what he needed to for anything useful at the deadline and always tried to hit the bargain bin for plugs like Arnason.

Yeah, Murray has given away more assets in deadline deals than Muckler ever did.

 

[supsens]

And next to nothing else. That was the problem.

And fisher, vermette, foligno

 

[StefanW]

Not every team we had over the years were the same. The team has been in a nose dive since 2011. Sure we still made the playoffs but at what cost.

IT made management think the team was better than they were (like after Edmonton's SCF run) They lost a star in Alfredson (EDM tradin Pronger). The following season the Sens lost another star in Spezza (EDM trading Smyth). Both Moves took out key peices in leadership that made them a good team. But for Edmonton they hit rock bottom right away and got top end talent through the draft. If Murray would of had those draft picks that Edmonton got here in Ottawa, I'm sure he would put the right team around them unlike how Edmonton, which is probably the least sought after city in professional sports, have very limited options on who might want to sign.

Sorry, gymnastics aside there is no comparison between a team with drafting several elite top picks, including #1 overalls, and missing the playoffs 8 consecutive times (and being near the bottom again this season) and a team that has missed the playoffs one year in a row, which was the first in three years, and made the playoffs 5 times out of the last 8 seasons. And the Sens have not had particularly high picks in that span.

Simply not a reasonable comparison.

 

[tony d]

Time to start increasing our scouting now. Be great to start drafting more top tier talent for the next 10-15 years.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Murray obviously has not turned us into a contender. He has simply drafted well. And made a few nice trades to bring in bobby ryan and Kyle Turris. And 1 great suhin of note in clarke MacArthur. We were still not where we need to be. One very high end draft pick and when he leaves maybe a ray shero or Brian Burke like (someone not afraid to pull the trigger) to take over and have this team turn a corner.

 

[Micklebot]

Murray obviously has not turned us into a contender. He has simply drafted well. And made a few nice trades to bring in bobby ryan and Kyle Turris. And 1 great suhin of note in clarke MacArthur. We were still not where we need to be. One very high end draft pick and when he leaves maybe a ray shero or Brian Burke like (someone not afraid to pull the trigger) to take over and have this team turn a corner.

Brian Burke sure got the leafs to turn the corner by pulling the trigger on that Kessel deal.

Whatever GM comes in after Murray won't need to "pull the trigger" on a great trade, he'll need the flexibility to spend more than bottom 5 in the league.

Our very young team is slowly coming of age, and guys like Zibanejad, Hoffman, Stone, Turris, and Ceci will continue to improve this team and need new deals. If we start losing guys to budget, it won't matter what deals we make. On the other hand, if we had the ability to spend to the cap, we'd probably have managed to sign one or two of the top UFAs over the last 3-4 year. UFAs follow money after all.

One addition of a dman like Streit or Erhoff and a center like Stastny instead of Legwand and this is a completely different team.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

"Gesus":

Muckler didn't empty the farm then who did????????????????????

When Tim took over Binghamton they only had 1 AHL caliber player in the system~~~~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

An anybody that drafted B. Lee #9 overall says all there is about Mucklers drafting ability or lack there of~~~!!!!!!!

Well my argument was that he left the cupboard bare because he either drafted flops or russians that never came, which doesn't really mean he emptied the cupboards, he just never put anything of value in them in the first place. It wasn't a situation we were in because he was tossing assets away for rentals or aging vets, it was more that he didn't foster himself any assets to waste even if he wanted to.

 

[StefanW]

Brian Burke sure got the leafs to turn the corner by pulling the trigger on that Kessel deal.

Whatever GM comes in after Murray won't need to "pull the trigger" on a great trade, he'll need the flexibility to spend more than bottom 5 in the league.

Our very young team is slowly coming of age, and guys like Zibanejad, Hoffman, Stone, Turris, and Ceci will continue to improve this team and need new deals. If we start losing guys to budget, it won't matter what deals we make. On the other hand, if we had the ability to spend to the cap, we'd probably have managed to sign one or two of the top UFAs over the last 3-4 year. UFAs follow money after all.

One addition of a dman like Streit or Erhoff and a center like Stastny instead of Legwand and this is a completely different team.

Add Stralman to the list of D. He ended up being underpaid as a UFA this past summer, so even taking having to beat the Lightening offer into account he would have been a bargain. Add him in from game 1 and we are a playoff team.

 

[Micklebot]

Add Stralman to the list of D. He ended up being underpaid as a UFA this past summer, so even taking having to beat the Lightening offer into account he would have been a bargain. Add him in from game 1 and we are a playoff team.

Yep. You could probably also add trade pickups like Boychuk and Leddy as options had Budget not been a hinderance.

TBH, in hindsight, had we known Methot's injury would be anywhere near this bad, we should have picked up a guy like Leddy, Boychuck, or whoever even if it was only to unload them whenever Methot came back (or even if we didn't know his injury would be this bad to lessen Methot's leverage at the bargaining table, though that's not really a concern anymore).

 

[Xspyrit]

I think some people still don't understand what really happened with this franchise. I'm going to oversimplify because frankly, that's all the time I have for this...

1998-2008 : contending years
2008-2010 : "life support" years
2010-2015 : rebuild years

* 2007-08 : team didn't change much on paper after the Cup run but that was in prior tears that they started losing players like Chara, Hossa and Havlat. Team started with a 15-2 record but somehow the ship sank. The team never really recovered from it.

* 2009-10 : was the last decent season and attempt at "win it for Alfie"... that's why they realized in 2010-11 that a rebuild (progressive) was necessary, they had several key players going out of prime or nearing retirement (Alfie, Gonchar, Kuba, Phillips, Neil...)

* Progressive rebuild started when Fisher, Kelly, Ruutu, Kovalev, Campoli and Auld were shipped at the 2010-11 deadline for no SALARY back. Then, it was Kuba let go, then Gonchar, then Alfie, then finally the Spezza trade.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I think some people still don't understand what really happened with this franchise. I'm going to oversimplify because frankly, that's all the time I have for this...

1998-2008 : contending years
2008-2010 : "life support" years
2010-2015 : rebuild years

* 2007-08 : team didn't change much on paper after the Cup run but that was in prior tears that they started losing players like Chara, Hossa and Havlat. Team started with a 15-2 record but somehow the ship sank. The team never really recovered from it.

* 2009-10 : was the last decent season and attempt at "win it for Alfie"... that's why they realized in 2010-11 that a rebuild (progressive) was necessary, they had several key players going out of prime or nearing retirement (Alfie, Gonchar, Kuba, Phillips, Neil...)

* Progressive rebuild started when Fisher, Kelly, Ruutu, Kovalev, Campoli and Auld were shipped at the 2010-11 deadline for no SALARY back. Then, it was Kuba let go, then Gonchar, then Alfie, then finally the Spezza trade.

Mhm yeah.

But we've spent our rebuild trying to fight for the playoffs every year. While that has helped our current players development, it has prohibited us from really completing the rebuild.

 

[pepty]

Yep. You could probably also add trade pickups like Boychuk and Leddy as options had Budget not been a hinderance.

TBH, in hindsight, had we known Methot's injury would be anywhere near this bad, we should have picked up a guy like Leddy, Boychuck, or whoever even if it was only to unload them whenever Methot came back (or even if we didn't know his injury would be this bad to lessen Methot's leverage at the bargaining table, though that's not really a concern anymore).

The long time line on the injury to Methot seems to have messed up a lot of plans ,not able to play him or trade him till its cleared up.

 

[Sensinitis]

Mhm yeah.

But we've spent our rebuild trying to fight for the playoffs every year. While that has helped our current players development, it has prohibited us from really completing the rebuild.

The rebuild is complete in 2-3 years when our core guys like Karlsson, Zibanejad, Turris, Ceci, Cowen, Lehner hit their prime.

That's when you add to the team and go for it. It's not time for that yet.

 

[StefanW]

Yep. You could probably also add trade pickups like Boychuk and Leddy as options had Budget not been a hinderance.

TBH, in hindsight, had we known Methot's injury would be anywhere near this bad, we should have picked up a guy like Leddy, Boychuck, or whoever even if it was only to unload them whenever Methot came back (or even if we didn't know his injury would be this bad to lessen Methot's leverage at the bargaining table, though that's not really a concern anymore).

Agreed. I think the D was the area where our budget made the biggest impact. We should have shored up our D regardless of whether Methot was injured, but we took the cheap route instead.

 

[StefanW]

The rebuild is complete in 2-3 years when our core guys like Karlsson, Zibanejad, Turris, Ceci, Cowen, Lehner hit their prime.

That's when you add to the team and go for it. It's not time for that yet.

I suppose you can think of it in those terms. However, it 2-3 years other guys like Ryan and Andy will be starting to exit their prime, and some of the guys you mention may not even be here due to trades. Further, others may not pan out as expected. I think the Avs this season are a pretty good example of how rebuilds do not always work in a linear way with clear timelines.

I think it is a misnomer to say "rebuild is complete." All teams continually rebuild as they go. The only difference is the scale of the rebuild. I think the rebuild that started a few years back was small potatoes compared to the overhaul we are seeing now. There is absolutely no way of knowing whether we will be contending in a few years or missing the playoffs regularly. All I can say with any certainty is that if the budget situation stays the same it will be the latter.

 

[SlapJack]

Muckler was told to get to the Finals at all costs, and he lost his job for it, and in the process emptied the cupboard.

Murray inherited a Stanley Cup Finals team and had to rebuild the Farm team.

My choice, thank Murray for his farm team rebuild, and move in a new direction, just like they thanked Muckler.

This rebuild has been going on almost a decade now.

You can go for the prize AND keep the cupboards stocked with competent drafting. Mucker fell short of the prize and left behind a few boxes of KD. His drafting left nothing to work with for the future.

I think the best defenseman he drafted was Gryba, top center was Peter Regin, and not one goalie of any substance. That's a bad haul for ONE draft, now stretch that out over 4-5 years. That's pathetic.

edit: Missed Brian Elliott in net and Meszaros. It's still bad though.

 

[Back in Black]

I suppose you can think of it in those terms. However, it 2-3 years other guys like Ryan and Andy will be starting to exit their prime, and some of the guys you mention may not even be here due to trades. Further, others may not pan out as expected.

I think the rebuild that started a few years back was small potatoes compared to the overhaul we are seeing now. There is absolutely no way of knowing whether we will be contending in a few years or missing the playoffs regularly. All I can say with any certainty is that if the budget situation stays the same it will be the latter.

Totally agree. We could very well be in the same boat in 2-3 years, unless a new GM steps in and puts his stamp on it.

 

[Kellogs]

You can go for the prize AND keep the cupboards stocked with competent drafting. Mucker fell short of the prize and left behind a few boxes of KD. His drafting left nothing to work with for the future.

I think the best defenseman he drafted was Gryba, top center was Peter Regin, and not one goalie of any substance. That's a bad haul for ONE draft, now stretch that out over 4-5 years. That's pathetic.

edit: Missed Brian Elliott in net and Meszaros. It's still bad though.

If you think that getting Gryba and Regin in a single draft is a bad haul, then you need to seriously reevaluate what the chances are of draft picks actually making it to the NHL. First round picks have the highest chance of making it to the NHL, and only about ~60% of those actually do make it, and that chance is significantly smaller once you get into the later portions of the first round and beyond (where we picked most of the time under Muckler).

Most of the time, you hope to get a single player per draft that can play a significant amount of games in the NHL and hope that you hit the jackpot once every few years where you get multiple draft picks that can play in the NHL. And out of those, only a small percentage of them will actually have a significant enough impact to turn your franchise around.

It's not a coincidence that every single team (minus Detroit) that was a contender at the same time as the Sens were eventually bottomed out. Colorado, New Jersey, Dallas, Philadelphia, Toronto, Tampa Bay etc. have all had to spend time at the bottom of the standings (some for longer than others).

 

[Minister of Offence]

Murray obviously has not turned us into a contender. He has simply drafted well. And made a few nice trades to bring in bobby ryan and Kyle Turris. And 1 great suhin of note in clarke MacArthur. We were still not where we need to be. One very high end draft pick and when he leaves maybe a ray shero or Brian Burke like (someone not afraid to pull the trigger) to take over and have this team turn a corner.

Burke not being scared to pull the trigger netted them kessel instead of seguin. Shero inherited the two best players in the game, which made Pittsburgh much more atractive to guerins, recchis, etc.

Just because you aren't pulling the trigger doesn't mean your scared to. It may mean the only targets aren't worth a shot.

If the organization is set up for someone else to continue taking it forward you can't really diss the job he did. The draft/develop system was broken to nothing here when murray became gm. If that were the only thing he did you could say he did a pretty good job.

In a place like Edmonton, it's still broken. If you're not an EDM first rounder, you don't become an oiler. Oilers are the easy example but we churn out non first rounders very well these days. That's huge

 

[Niv]

The 2002 draft is a real horror show.

To be fair, the 2002 draft was nothing special, especially after the first ten picks (with the exception of Duncan Keith in the second round, of course). The Brian Lee draft was definitely the worst in the Muckler years.