Confirmed with Link: [MTL/BUF] Gorges traded to Sabres for MIN's 2nd round pick 2016

[Beendair Donedat]

The game is evolving towards having as many of your D man: (a) move the puck (b) join the rush and (c) participate in the score sheet.

I am not saying the strictly denfensive D man needs to dissapear tomorrow, but its use is certainly on the decline...unless you want to spend your three periods tied up in your own zone.

Tell that to the LA Kings who had Regehr and Greene in the lineup for their cup wins.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

All the hate I received in this thread.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1386337

All the crap about him being a top 4 dman and shot blocking being important and blah blah blah. Love that Bergie has rid us of many bad Gauthier decisions.

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

All the hate I received in this thread.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1386337

All the crap about him being a top 4 dman and shot blocking being important and blah blah blah. Love that Bergie has rid us of many bad Gauthier decisions.

Even some people who went as far as saying he was a #2 d-man in several teams, and a top-4 everywhere.

We all saw what his value was, and what opinion other GMs had of his contract lately. Only willing to give low 2nds and/or contractual problems in exchange.

 

[Bieber fever]

he was traded because he is small. If you are a defensive dman , you better be huge.

 

[Kriss E]

This.

It's gonna be a good season next year. As much as I was disappointed with MB last summer, I think he really did good this week. Vrbata would have been icing on the cake (since he was rumored to accept to come here for less money) but ultimately, we'll be fine.

I'm not as convinced as you are. I think a lot of our success rests on the shoulders of uncertainty. If Eller and Bourque have bounced back years, if our kids keep progressing, then yes, we'll be fine. But I can't say I'll be happy if we'll yet again start next season with DD as our #1 center.

 

[HabsHockey*]

he was traded because he is small. If you are a defensive dman , you better be huge.

I'm glad Weaver is taking his spot then

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

I'm not as convinced as you are. I think a lot of our success rests on the shoulders of uncertainty. If Eller and Bourque have bounced back years, if our kids keep progressing, then yes, we'll be fine. But I can't say I'll be happy if we'll yet again start next season with DD as our #1 center.

The way I see it; Bergevin had two options this summer, entering the offseason;

Give a lot of our team's futures to get an established winger ala Bobby Ryan, or go for cheap fixes, hoping our youth keeps improving, and let them establish themselves as core players.

Strategy A is exactly what the Sens did last summer. Murray misevaluated his overachieving team, and it ended up backfiring on him.

Strategy B banks on natural progression. This is what Bergevin is trying to do here.

As for having Desharnais as our #1 C, well, what I think is that for him to not be our #1 guy anymore, we need someone to push him out of that spot. So far, Galchenyuk has been underwhelming, Eller has unimpressive stats in the regular season, and Plekanec is (righfully so) being put in a shutdown role. Desharnais keeps producing, all that while being Pacioretty's favorite center. That counts for something, too.

#1 Cs are not available on the trade market. When they are, they're on the decline, or cost you assets, thus creating other holes in your lineup.

The only way out, the only way to not have DD as our #1 C, is Galchenyuk passing him on the depth chart. And Galchenyuk sure hasn't showed he's up for the task so far.

 

[Dagistitsyn]

The way I see it; Bergevin had two options this summer, entering the offseason;

Give a lot of our team's futures to get an established winger ala Bobby Ryan, or go for cheap fixes, hoping our youth keeps improving, and let them establish themselves as core players.

Strategy A is exactly what the Sens did last summer. Murray misevaluated his overachieving team, and it ended up backfiring on him.

Strategy B banks on natural progression. This is what Bergevin is trying to do here.

As for having Desharnais as our #1 C, well, what I think is that for him to not be our #1 guy anymore, we need someone to push him out of that spot. So far, Galchenyuk has been underwhelming, Eller has unimpressive stats in the regular season, and Plekanec is (righfully so) being put in a shutdown role. Desharnais keeps producing, all that while being Pacioretty's favorite center. That counts for something, too.

#1 Cs are not available on the trade market. When they are, they're on the decline, or cost you assets, thus creating other holes in your lineup.

The only way out, the only way to not have DD as our #1 C, is Galchenyuk passing him on the depth chart. And Galchenyuk sure hasn't showed he's up for the task so far.

 

[Kriss E]

Tell that to the LA Kings who had Regehr and Greene in the lineup for their cup wins.

Regehr only played in the first series. He got injured after 3min of ice vs Anaheim.
But you kind of proved his point, there was more than twice as many Dmen that can move the puck than ones that can't because whenever Green and Regehr were both dressed, they played with 7 Dman, not 6, and Greene was the least used. It's not an even split.
He also said that if you're going to be a defensive Dman, you need to have an edge, and although they are not mean Dman, they certainly are big and have great net presence.

The game is a lot more aimed towards speed, the ability to move the puck is key to a fast and good transition game.
It's similar to saying being good at faceoffs helps possession.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

The way I see it; Bergevin had two options this summer, entering the offseason;

Give a lot of our team's futures to get an established winger ala Bobby Ryan, or go for cheap fixes, hoping our youth keeps improving, and let them establish themselves as core players.

Strategy A is exactly what the Sens did last summer. Murray misevaluated his overachieving team, and it ended up backfiring on him.

Strategy B banks on natural progression. This is what Bergevin is trying to do here.

As for having Desharnais as our #1 C, well, what I think is that for him to not be our #1 guy anymore, we need someone to push him out of that spot. So far, Galchenyuk has been underwhelming, Eller has unimpressive stats in the regular season, and Plekanec is (righfully so) being put in a shutdown role. Desharnais keeps producing, all that while being Pacioretty's favorite center. That counts for something, too.

#1 Cs are not available on the trade market. When they are, they're on the decline, or cost you assets, thus creating other holes in your lineup.

The only way out, the only way to not have DD as our #1 C, is Galchenyuk passing him on the depth chart. And Galchenyuk sure hasn't showed he's up for the task so far.

I agree with all except for the fact that someone needs to push DD out of that #1 role. In theory you would be correct. But the coach also has to give the other players the opportunity to beat DD out of that spot. MT has force fed DD to that #1 spot even if other players outperformed him. That's the problem. MT is very stubborn. If he doesn't like you or thinks of you a certain way...he's not changing. Hoping one of our C's does so well that even MT would be forced to play them. Which means they'd have to be twice as good as DD.

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

I agree with all except for the fact that someone needs to push DD out of that #1 role. In theory you would be correct. But the coach also has to give the other players the opportunity to beat DD out of that spot. MT has force fed DD to that #1 spot even if other players outperformed him. That's the problem. MT is very stubborn. If he doesn't like you or thinks of you a certain way...he's not changing. Hoping one of our C's does so well that even MT would be forced to play them. Which means they'd have to be twice as good as DD.

Chemestry with Patches, and MaxPac admitting himself DD is his favorite center to play with probably goes a long way. My point is, if Pacioretty scores 39 goals in 73 games with Desharnais as his C, I don't think there's motivation to split them up. From that conclusion, I think it's another duo/line that needs to match their production, and get more offensive minutes/opportunities. I also don't think, considering Patches' character, that it's a good idea to split him from his BFF. When you have dominant players like this, you try to please them.

 

[dmanfish90]

The way I see it; Bergevin had two options this summer, entering the offseason;

Give a lot of our team's futures to get an established winger ala Bobby Ryan, or go for cheap fixes, hoping our youth keeps improving, and let them establish themselves as core players.

Strategy A is exactly what the Sens did last summer. Murray misevaluated his overachieving team, and it ended up backfiring on him.

Strategy B banks on natural progression. This is what Bergevin is trying to do here.

As for having Desharnais as our #1 C, well, what I think is that for him to not be our #1 guy anymore, we need someone to push him out of that spot. So far, Galchenyuk has been underwhelming, Eller has unimpressive stats in the regular season, and Plekanec is (righfully so) being put in a shutdown role. Desharnais keeps producing, all that while being Pacioretty's favorite center. That counts for something, too.

#1 Cs are not available on the trade market. When they are, they're on the decline, or cost you assets, thus creating other holes in your lineup.

The only way out, the only way to not have DD as our #1 C, is Galchenyuk passing him on the depth chart. And Galchenyuk sure hasn't showed he's up for the task so far.

Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, Jason Spezza (not on the decline), Tyler Seguin (who is a #1 Centre now), Joe Thornton on Boston back in 2006, and im sure some others have been on the trade market. Lots of them aren't but some are. You just have to wait for the right moment and cash in.

I remember Lecavalier was and look at what we offered (overpayment) but still. #1Cs are available, some in decline, some not (Carter, Richards, Spezza, Seguin, Thornton are all not in decline at the time they get traded).

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, Jason Spezza (not on the decline), Tyler Seguin (who is a #1 Centre now), Joe Thornton on Boston back in 2006, and im sure some others have been on the trade market. Lots of them aren't but some are. You just have to wait for the right moment and cash in.

I remember Lecavalier was and look at what we offered (overpayment) but still. #1Cs are available, some in decline, some not (Carter, Richards, Spezza, Seguin, Thornton are all not in decline at the time they get traded).

Mike Richards isn't a 1st C.
Spezza is definitely on the decline.
Seguin was traded for attitude issues.
Jeff Carter is not your classic #1 C, not even used as a C for LA.

Thornton is an exception to the rule. Mike O'Donnell was an idiot who should never have gotten a job in the NHL.

And taking all those into account, even if all those you suggested were #1C, that's roughly 5 examples in the last 9 years. And each time, very often, there are several teams gunning for those guys. Which kind of makes my point; these guy are extremely hard to acquire on the market; nearly impossible.

 

[Sorinth]

The way I see it; Bergevin had two options this summer, entering the offseason;

Give a lot of our team's futures to get an established winger ala Bobby Ryan, or go for cheap fixes, hoping our youth keeps improving, and let them establish themselves as core players.

Strategy A is exactly what the Sens did last summer. Murray misevaluated his overachieving team, and it ended up backfiring on him.

Strategy B banks on natural progression. This is what Bergevin is trying to do here.

As for having Desharnais as our #1 C, well, what I think is that for him to not be our #1 guy anymore, we need someone to push him out of that spot. So far, Galchenyuk has been underwhelming, Eller has unimpressive stats in the regular season, and Plekanec is (righfully so) being put in a shutdown role. Desharnais keeps producing, all that while being Pacioretty's favorite center. That counts for something, too.

#1 Cs are not available on the trade market. When they are, they're on the decline, or cost you assets, thus creating other holes in your lineup.

The only way out, the only way to not have DD as our #1 C, is Galchenyuk passing him on the depth chart. And Galchenyuk sure hasn't showed he's up for the task so far.

Just because Ottawa failed using Strategy A doesn't mean we would have. Ottawa finished 8th in the conference in a shortened season, we finished 4th and then 9th in the league. We have a much better/longer track record of success then they did.

But I really don't understand the point your making, if Ottawa had followed Strategy B they would be in the same position as they are now. The only difference is they'd have had a 1st round pick last draft instead of Ryan right now. Maybe that pick helps them down the line, but if they re-sign Ryan then even that is questionable.

Also many have said that they struggled because they lost Alfredsson's leadership. They too thought the young guys would step up and fill that void but it didn't happen. Does that mean we are going to struggle because we've lost our leadership?

 

[Scintillating10]

The way I see it; Bergevin had two options this summer, entering the offseason;

Give a lot of our team's futures to get an established winger ala Bobby Ryan, or go for cheap fixes, hoping our youth keeps improving, and let them establish themselves as core players.

Strategy A is exactly what the Sens did last summer. Murray misevaluated his overachieving team, and it ended up backfiring on him.

Strategy B banks on natural progression. This is what Bergevin is trying to do here.

As for having Desharnais as our #1 C, well, what I think is that for him to not be our #1 guy anymore, we need someone to push him out of that spot. So far, Galchenyuk has been underwhelming, Eller has unimpressive stats in the regular season, and Plekanec is (righfully so) being put in a shutdown role. Desharnais keeps producing, all that while being Pacioretty's favorite center. That counts for something, too.

#1 Cs are not available on the trade market. When they are, they're on the decline, or cost you assets, thus creating other holes in your lineup.

The only way out, the only way to not have DD as our #1 C, is Galchenyuk passing him on the depth chart. And Galchenyuk sure hasn't showed he's up for the task so far.

Ottawa had a lot more problems than your plan A. Look at all the teams who added a star and got a cup because of it. Jeff Carter in LA, Hossa in Chicago, Chara in Boston. Don't cherry pick 1 bad example and claim it is the rue for all.

 

[dmanfish90]

Mike Richards isn't a 1st C.
Spezza is definitely on the decline.
Seguin was traded for attitude issues.
Jeff Carter is not your classic #1 C, not even used as a C for LA.

Thornton is an exception to the rule. Mike O'Donnell was an idiot who should never have gotten a job in the NHL.

And taking all those into account, even if all those you suggested were #1C, that's roughly 5 examples in the last 9 years. And each time, very often, there are several teams gunning for those guys. Which kind of makes my point; these guy are extremely hard to acquire on the market; nearly impossible.

Firstly, Mike Richards was a #1 C in Philly and then was moved to #2 when playing behind Kopitar (which is rightfully so). It's like saying Bergeron or Krejci aren't #1C because one or the other is ahead of them in the lineup.

Secondly, Spezza IS NOT on the decline. 66 PTS in 75 GP on a team like the Ottawa Senators is not "decline" decline would be like 50 or 40 points in 75 GP. 2 years ago he was above PPG. So no.

Carter although was not a #1C in PHI maybe (with Richards), was definitely sought after by CBJ as a #1C and again, had to be moved because of it. Richards is more of a C because he plays a more two-way game than Carter does, but nevertheless Carter did play Centre on the That 70's line.

I'm sure there were others that I'm not thinking of. But obviously guys like Crosby, Toews, Getzlaf, Staal, Kopitar, Bergeron, Datsyuk, etc. are not going to be as available as guys like Legwand, Lombardi, Turris, Ribeiro, etc.

Also, how many true #1 D are available on the trade market? And i'm talking the Lidstroms, the Subbans, the Doughtys here, not guys like Bouwmeester.

 

[Kriss E]

The way I see it; Bergevin had two options this summer, entering the offseason;

Give a lot of our team's futures to get an established winger ala Bobby Ryan, or go for cheap fixes, hoping our youth keeps improving, and let them establish themselves as core players.

Strategy A is exactly what the Sens did last summer. Murray misevaluated his overachieving team, and it ended up backfiring on him.

Strategy B banks on natural progression. This is what Bergevin is trying to do here.

As for having Desharnais as our #1 C, well, what I think is that for him to not be our #1 guy anymore, we need someone to push him out of that spot. So far, Galchenyuk has been underwhelming, Eller has unimpressive stats in the regular season, and Plekanec is (righfully so) being put in a shutdown role. Desharnais keeps producing, all that while being Pacioretty's favorite center. That counts for something, too.

#1 Cs are not available on the trade market. When they are, they're on the decline, or cost you assets, thus creating other holes in your lineup.

The only way out, the only way to not have DD as our #1 C, is Galchenyuk passing him on the depth chart. And Galchenyuk sure hasn't showed he's up for the task so far.

I am in no way saying we should have traded for a player giving up assets again. We did it last year, and if I have to chose between Parenteau or Vanek, I take Vanek 100% of the time. Vrbata signed a 2year 5M deal, so I'm assuming we were not offering him that much more to entice him. He is a winger that is used to facing top opponents, played on a defensive team for a while and produced, he would have been perfect for Plekanec. When do we ever think about getting Plekanec a winger?? To me this was a priority and we didn't live up to it.
I'd also add that the Bobby Ryan trade for Ottawa was a good one. It had nothing to do with their struggles.

As for leaving spots for youngsters, that's my point. Youngsters come with uncertainty.

Regarding DD, I have no knock on him, but I'm sick of hearing that there is no better option or that nobody shown it. That's just not true. Eller outproduced him last year, he was doing it again early this season with 12 more pts than him through 20 games I believe, and then his winger was removed for the benefit of DD.
Plekanec while in a shutdown role, with pretty average wingers, will put up 50ish pts, similar to DD who's used as a #1 offensive center. Whenever Plekanec shared defensive responsibilities with other centers (Koivu-Gomez) he put up 60pts+.
So ya, I'm pretty keen to think we have options that just weren't explored.
Most importantly though, we need our #1 offensive line to produce when put in any situation. We all saw how that went down when POs came along and teams focused their game plan on shutting down that line. Disappointing production. So it's in our best interest to try other options.
DD was behind Plekanec and Eller in production last year, to start the season he had 1pt in 20 gp. So how is it he was still giving more favorable minutes to Eller and Plek? We're not talking about a center who merits having your whole offense rebuilt around here. He is not a ppg center. He is not even a #1 centerman by normal standards. We're talking about a center that may up 60pts tops by getting the most favorable minutes with the top wingers.

Galchenyuk, well I disagree that he was underwhelming. He produced well next to Eller, and his production dipped a bit after moving up to Plekanec which is pretty normal considering the more difficult situations. That being said, Galchenyuk will not show you how good of a center he is by playing the wing, and if he puts up 80pts as a winger, why would you then move him at center?
He has averaged a .5 scoring pace through his career, I'd say that's pretty darn good given the fact he did so on a 3rd line or next to a center used as a shutdown one. The time to have him center a line is now. We drafted him to be a big center for us, so let's use him as such.
Pacioretty's words mean very little. He said them when he didn't even have 50 games of NHL experience. Care to tell me how many centers Max played more than 10-15 consecutive games with? His break out in the NHL started next to Gomez.
Max will produce any other center. People have to let this go. DD is just a center he's used to playing with, that's all.

 

[Deluded Puck]

helps them down the line, but if they re-sign Ryan then even that is questionable.

Also many have said that they struggled because they lost Alfredsson's leadership. They too thought the young guys would step up and fill that void but it didn't happen. Does that mean we are going to struggle because we've lost our leadership?

Not comparable. Alfredsson was a genuine leader in Ottawa right to the end. Led his team in playoff scoring in his last year there.

Gorges was never a bigger leader than Markov, and Subban showed what it meant to lead throughout the playoffs, and Gionta was an afterthought amongst the forwards by then end. The Gallys & Eller all showed that they are ready to take on more responsibility on the team.

None of the young guys were riding the coattails of Gorges and Gionta.

 

[mark24]

Would fans have preferred Stewart for Gorges as opposed to a 2nd if it was option?

This one has been on my mind since deal went down. Not sure this would have even been and option or if MTL would have had to add something, but I know I would have much rather had Stewart even if we added to the deal.

 

[uiCk]

This one has been on my mind since deal went down. Not sure this would have even been and option or if MTL would have had to add something, but I know I would have much rather hhad rara .

Hhad rara

 

[mark24]

Hhad rara

lol, damn tablet wouldnt let me finish my post so i had to save it and then go to my pc to edit it. lol

 

[mark24]

umm? why would this get moved to a thread discussing the deal that did take place? its about if fans would have preferred a move for Stewart?

 

[Account Terminated]

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[Habs100]

This one has been on my mind since deal went down. Not sure this would have even been and option or if MTL would have had to add something, but I know I would have much rather had Stewart even if we added to the deal.

I also wanted to get Stewart. Before the Gorges trade I posted a thread in the Sabres forum asking their fans what they would want for Stewart. One poster replied Stewart. Another replied Briere and a 1st for Stewart and a 3rd. When it was announced Gorges was going to Buffalo, I was hoping for Stewart.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1699269

 

[Em Ancien]

Stewart is the anti-MB/MT...No need to tack on another Bourque.