Moving Jimmy

[WingedWheel1987]

What homegrown talents should have been bought out?

The issue is refusing to part with home grown talent under any circumstance. Only way they leave Detroit is if they make it to FA. No roster player will be traded or waived that was drafted by Detroit.

 

[Red Stanley]

The issue is that Howard is pretty much at the lowest point in his trade value. He has a big contract compared to his current ability, he's got a NTC and Holland is his GM. There is almost no way he doesn't finish his contract in Detroit.

Limited NTC, not a full one. And how do you know he's at the lowest point in his trade value? Are you personally involved in his contract negotiations?

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Limited NTC, not a full one. And how do you know he's at the lowest point in his trade value? Are you personally involved in his contract negotiations?

It's the worst he has played throughout his entire career.

Career worst seasons typically tend to coincide with low trade value.

 

[DatsDeking]

Didn't Holland say he isn't moving Jimmy?

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Didn't Holland say he isn't moving Jimmy?

Well yeah, but no team would want him if he offered Howard. Short of Detroit including a draft pick/decent prospect + retaining salary.

And while i have no faith in Ken Holland, he is better than Joe Dumars.

 

[Pavels Dog]

The issue is refusing to part with home grown talent under any circumstance. Only way they leave Detroit is if they make it to FA. No roster player will be traded or waived that was drafted by Detroit.

Well most of the homegrown talent that makes it to the Wings roster are really good players and good people too. The trades and waiving usually comes before they make it to the roster, when they are deemed expendendable or won't buy into the Wings system (Backman, Jarnkrok).
There's not really been a situation like Howard before that I can think of. I see no reason to think he will last his entire contract in Detroit.

Didn't Holland say he isn't moving Jimmy?

Not at the deadline.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Well most of the homegrown talent that makes it to the Wings roster are really good players and good people too. The trades and waiving usually comes before they make it to the roster, when they are deemed expendendable or won't buy into the Wings system (Backman, Jarnkrok).
There's not really been a situation like Howard before that I can think of. I see no reason to think he will last his entire contract in Detroit.

Being a good solider trumps talent/on ice ability.

See Dan Cleary.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Didn't Holland say he isn't moving Jimmy?

Yeah not at the Trade Deadline, But possibly the draft i would think.

 

[Red Stanley]

It's the worst he has played throughout his entire career.

Career worst seasons typically tend to coincide with low trade value.

Don't even remotely agree, but then again neither one of our opinions matters when it comes to his actual trade value. That is to be determined by the people who negotiate his future contract.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Don't even remotely agree, but then again neither one of our opinions matters when it comes to his actual trade value. That is to be determined by the people who negotiate his future contract.

Huh? Howard's current contract has three more years after this season ends.

 

[Red Stanley]

Huh? Howard's current contract has three more years after this season ends.

Yes and I'm going on the assumption that he'll be moved one way or another at the trade deadline or in the offseason. That will involve a contract negotiation of some sort and will determine his trade value (or lack thereof).

 

[Mijatovic]

Personally, I think you would move Howard however and whenever you could. We will be lucky to even make it to the second round regardless of having Howard or not, so we really need to make that move should the opportunity arise for a team that needs a number 1 now.

 

[Shaman464]

Don't even remotely agree, but then again neither one of our opinions matters when it comes to his actual trade value. That is to be determined by the people who negotiate his future contract.

This isn't a matter of opinion, starters with huge contracts, no trade clauses and who lost their jobs to an upstart tend not to be high water marks of their career trade value. And no one can negotiate his contract in the NHL until after his current one is expired.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Don't even remotely agree, but then again neither one of our opinions matters when it comes to his actual trade value. That is to be determined by the people who negotiate his future contract.

So a 30 year old goaltender. Who has gotten lit up. Has a terrible contract. And cannot win games doesn't equal low trade value? Sorry his agent doesn't decide it

 

[14ari13]

The issue is refusing to part with home grown talent under any circumstance. Only way they leave Detroit is if they make it to FA. No roster player will be traded or waived that was drafted by Detroit.

Kindl?

Personally, I think you would move Howard however and whenever you could. We will be lucky to even make it to the second round regardless of having Howard or not, so we really need to make that move should the opportunity arise for a team that needs a number 1 now.

We should move Howard if we get a chance, but I doubt we can. The oilers should definitely take him, but they are too stupid

 

[Henkka]

So a 30 year old goaltender. Who has gotten lit up. Has a terrible contract. And cannot win games doesn't equal low trade value? Sorry his agent doesn't decide it

He would be great for a tanking process... but I see only some expansion team doing that long-term.

 

[Red Stanley]

This isn't a matter of opinion, starters with huge contracts, no trade clauses and who lost their jobs to an upstart tend not to be high water marks of their career trade value. And no one can negotiate his contract in the NHL until after his current one is expired.

Again, it's a limited NTC, not a full one. Second, you're talking like Mrazek is just slightly above garbage grade, therefore your conclusion is that Howard must be total garbage. Sorry to burst your bubble, but people who get paid to scout at the NHL level tend to see how a player is performing better than fans on a message board. You're welcome to your opinion, of course, but that's just what it is - an opinion. Third, they can absolutely negotiate within the parameters of his contract, unless you're saying nobody has even been traded/bought out/waived while under contract. Legal semantics aside, my point is that negotiations resulting in change can very much occur with his current contract and to say that won't happen because he has no trade value is just pure speculation, because you have no idea what can and can't happen, unless you're directly involved in the negotiation process. So, once again, are you?

 

[HockeyinHD]

The issue is refusing to part with home grown talent under any circumstance. Only way they leave Detroit is if they make it to FA. No roster player will be traded or waived that was drafted by Detroit.

The reason I think his general position is false here is that he seems to be complaining about the manner a player leaves the roster, whether than if they just left the roster. I get the feeling he's doing this to gerrymander the results a bit.

For example, between 2000-2009: Kopecky, Meech, Fil, Hudler, Fleischmann, Quincey, Ritola, Emmerton, Mursak, Andersson, Ferraro, and Nestrasil were all drafted players who played for the Wings and then stopped playing for the Wings. Some were waived, some traded, and some were left unsigned either to be signed elsewhere or to fall out of the NHL... so even if we're just looking at the gerrymandered attempt he's making here, still wrong.

Matthias and Jarnkrok were other players that were moved out before they got to play an NHL game in Detroit, which seems to stand in contradiction to the notion of a reticence to move such assets.

Generally, I reject the criticism that a GM not trading drafted roster players is a point of evidence supporting error. It is often presented absent all nuance or context, as though a GM has to move some % of his drafted assets or something.

Typically, it's also usually presented as a Playstation transaction, as though a GM who sought a move could make a beneficial one regularly... and that's rarely the case. 'Holland didn't move this drafted player I didn't like, for a package that would have returned more value than it cost, therefore he must not have tried, therefore he is bad.'

Not what I would describe as a logic chain forged of adamantium.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

The reason I think his general position is false here is that he seems to be complaining about the manner a player leaves the roster, whether than if they just left the roster. I get the feeling he's doing this to gerrymander the results a bit.

For example, between 2000-2009: Kopecky, Meech, Fil, Hudler, Fleischmann, Quincey, Ritola, Emmerton, Mursak, Andersson, Ferraro, and Nestrasil were all drafted players who played for the Wings and then stopped playing for the Wings. Some were waived, some traded, and some were left unsigned either to be signed elsewhere or to fall out of the NHL... so even if we're just looking at the gerrymandered attempt he's making here, still wrong.

Matthias and Jarnkrok were other players that were moved out before they got to play an NHL game in Detroit, which seems to stand in contradiction to the notion of a reticence to move such assets.

Generally, I reject the criticism that a GM not trading drafted roster players is a point of evidence supporting error. It is often presented absent all nuance or context, as though a GM has to move some % of his drafted assets or something.

Typically, it's also usually presented as a Playstation transaction, as though a GM who sought a move could make a beneficial one regularly... and that's rarely the case. 'Holland didn't move this drafted player I didn't like, for a package that would have returned more value than it cost, therefore he must not have tried, therefore he is bad.'

Not what I would describe as a logic chain forged of adamantium.

I say "regular roster players" and you include Ritola, Mursak, Emmerton and Meech. Way to just go ahead and ignore my post to suit your needs. Ohh and Nestrasil i love that you included him. The guy who was waived for Dan Cleary. Ohh wait or was he waived cause of Daniel Alferdsson...

Hudler and Flip were the only roster players on that list and they walked via FA.

The rest were complete garbage that managed to be the Wings token healthy scratch.

 

[InjuredChoker]

flash wasn't that bad but he never played a game for the wings, like calle and janmark.

 

[FlashyG]

I say "regular roster players" and you include Ritola, Mursak, Emmerton and Meech. Way to just go ahead and ignore my post to suit your needs. Ohh and Nestrasil i love that you included him. The guy who was waived for Dan Cleary. Ohh wait or was he waived cause of Daniel Alferdsson...

Hudler and Flip were the only roster players on that list and they walked via FA.

The rest were complete garbage that managed to be the Wings token healthy scratch.

How is Emmerton not considered a regular roster player, he played in literally every game of the 2012/2013 season and played in 71 the year before that.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I say "regular roster players" and you include Ritola, Mursak, Emmerton and Meech. Way to just go ahead and ignore my post to suit your needs. Ohh and Nestrasil i love that you included him. The guy who was waived for Dan Cleary. Ohh wait or was he waived cause of Daniel Alferdsson...

Hudler and Flip were the only roster players on that list and they walked via FA.

The rest were complete garbage that managed to be the Wings token healthy scratch.

Part of why I think this line of thinking is so flawed is because Detroit never rushes it's prospects to the NHL. So for the most part we are able to see who is worth keeping before they become regular roster players. It's exactly what's happening on our defense currently, Marchenko has shown himself worth keeping. Ouellet has so far not, and might be in danger of being traded. Same with Sproul. Would it be a better thing if Holland had made Ritola a regular roster player for a year before deciding he's garbage and traded him? Not really.

 

[Claypool]

He would be great for a tanking process... but I see only some expansion team doing that long-term.

Leafs might trade for Howard to reach the cap floor this offseason.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Part of why I think this line of thinking is so flawed is because Detroit never rushes it's prospects to the NHL. So for the most part we are able to see who is worth keeping before they become regular roster players. It's exactly what's happening on our defense currently, Marchenko has shown himself worth keeping. Ouellet has so far not, and might be in danger of being traded. Same with Sproul. Would it be a better thing if Holland had made Ritola a regular roster player for a year before deciding he's garbage and traded him? Not really.

That only works when you have great talent blocking your prospects. That hasn't been the case for several years.

Prospects don't get 4-5 years to prove themselves in today's NHL.

 

[Pavels Dog]

That only works when you have great talent blocking your prospects. That hasn't been the case for several years.

Prospects don't get 4-5 years to prove themselves in today's NHL.

I don't see how that matters when we're talking mediocre talents getting traded/waived. We haven't traded any star prospects because we wanted to keep a Cleary around. The guys that have been moved, Ritola/Mursak/Emmerton/Mursak/Janmark/Jarnkrok/Meech/etc have been moved because they have been mediocre and not better than our roster players or best prospects. The fact that they don't count as "regular roster players" is easily explained by Detroit almost always choosing an overripening process which means you have plenty of time to decide what players to keep BEFORE they become regular NHLers. So I don't think it should be a negative thing that Holland for the most part moves the mediocre talent before they become regulars on our team.