Confirmed with Link: Morgan: Coyotes, Tocchet agree to part ways

[Jakey53]

The best solution would be Torts in my opinion, next would be Gallant, maybe Boudrou. I don't think any of them are an option simply because of cost. A top tier proven coach will get $4 mill a year now on a multi year deal, say 4 years. We simply don't have that budget. The next coach will be an assistant or somebody unproven at the NHL head coaching level because of cost. It is what it is, we will get a dice roll similar to RT, we aren't getting somebody proven like a Tip/Torts/Gallant/Q.

RT got 1.5mill, Torts 2.5 mill, DT 3 mill., Trotz 4 mill. Of course others got more, but what is 3 mill. more in the grand scheme of things. These coaches get the big bucks for a reason. ONE game of playoffs probably makes up this difference. Of course nothing is guaranteed, but I like my chances with a proven coach better than all of the inexperienced coaches talked about on here. We can't "roll the dice" here as you say, but that is what I expect.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Nobody overreacts as much as me. But your comment wasn’t a contribution it was a drive by. Your phrasing was clear. You can reframe it a different way but you were responding to the ongoing discussion.

Tell me of the names we’ve all been mentioning which are candy ass? Then tell me better alternatives. Otherwise you’re just heckling us.

I’m just trying to be the first on your new ignore list

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Ehhh...I’m being an ass. You’re fine @Coyotedroppings - more names for the pile or reasons why other names should come off would be good though.

I’m challenging the thinking, not anyone, or any particular candidate. Maybe over the top, but “candy ass” is an attention getter.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I think a better coach would have made enough of a difference this season for our team to squeak in and lose to a top team in the division in the first round. Pro-Tocchet commenters online seem to not want to concede even that, citing that with this poor roster construction and paltry talent level, nobody could have done more. I disagree. I think if we traded coaches with Vegas, they’d still be in the top three but we’d like have ended up 4th. And we’d still have been a first round exit.

But here’s the thing; I think they discussion is a complete distraction. It’s absolutely not about squeezing out a few more points or being a little less embarrassing in losses, or being better prepared or more engaged. It’s not exactly about game or season outcomes at this stage. It’s about stagnation.

I don’t think Tocchet is a good coach and I don’t think he knows what he’s doing. I don’t see enough progress. Our core is young enough that for many of them their whole NHL experience had been Tocchet. I think he’s a dope. I think about years wasted of what could have been experience with, development under, and learning from a really good coaching staff. We will never get that back for these young guys. And the worst thing we could have done was waste even more of their prime years with a loser staff.

The idea that it’s okay for your staff to suck since the players do anyway is unbelievably asinine. Nothing would ever, ever change.

I can agree with this to a point. The coach needs to put players in a position to succeed. RT did not do that IMO on so many levels. You can’t overplay your top goalie. You can’t thwart Dvo’s potential offense with poor line mates. You need to read and react (as players do) by making in game adjustments - players need split second read and react ability, coaches have more time - inexcusable. If an intense forecheck is what garners success, you need to have your team in impeccable shape and prepared every game. The list goes on and I’m not arguing with you here, just pointing out flaws in RT that quickly come to mind.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

I think a better coach would have made enough of a difference this season for our team to squeak in and lose to a top team in the division in the first round. Pro-Tocchet commenters online seem to not want to concede even that, citing that with this poor roster construction and paltry talent level, nobody could have done more. I disagree. I think if we traded coaches with Vegas, they’d still be in the top three but we’d like have ended up 4th. And we’d still have been a first round exit.

But here’s the thing; I think they discussion is a complete distraction. It’s absolutely not about squeezing out a few more points or being a little less embarrassing in losses, or being better prepared or more engaged. It’s not exactly about game or season outcomes at this stage. It’s about stagnation.

I don’t think Tocchet is a good coach and I don’t think he knows what he’s doing. I don’t see enough progress. Our core is young enough that for many of them their whole NHL experience had been Tocchet. I think he’s a dope. I think about years wasted of what could have been experience with, development under, and learning from a really good coaching staff. We will never get that back for these young guys. And the worst thing we could have done was waste even more of their prime years with a loser staff.

The idea that it’s okay for your staff to suck since the players do anyway is unbelievably asinine. Nothing would ever, ever change.

Talk about spin, rt!, Pro Tocchet commenters think that with a better roster the Coyotes could avoid embarrassment in the first round of the playoffs. No post that I have read, except perhaps Morgan's stuff, says that Tocchet is a good coach. What they do say is that the roster is soooo very poor that no coach could do better than a 1st round blowout this year.

My point is that Tocchet has been that shiny round object that gets everybody's attention while the real problem, the roster, gets lip service.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Sabres.

Eichel. We don't have an Eichel.

 

[cobra427]

RT got 1.5mill, Torts 2.5 mill, DT 3 mill., Trotz 4 mill. Of course others got more, but what is 3 mill. more in the grand scheme of things. These coaches get the big bucks for a reason. ONE game of playoffs probably makes up this difference. Of course nothing is guaranteed, but I like my chances with a proven coach better than all of the inexperienced coaches talked about on here. We can't "roll the dice" here as you say, but that is what I expect.

Krueger/Q/McClellan/Trotz/Vigneault are all at $4-5mill per year on 4-5 year deals. Torts fall into that category for sure as does Gallant/Boudrou. We aren't paying $4 mill/4 years+ for any of them, we simply can't afford it.

 

[rt]

I have a gut feeling Torts takes a season off.

I agree.

Lane Lambert is a name I’m trying to wrap my head around. When he was a HC in the AHL for five seasons, ten to fifteen years ago, his teams seemed to have great regular season success. They made the playoffs every year before he got promoted to the big club as an AC. But there wasn’t that deep playoff run or championship other candidates have.

He’s enjoyed a lot of success in the NHL as an AC. But he’s just gone with Trotz everywhere Trotz has been. Maybe that’s a really good thing. But then again, maybe that’s a really bad thing. Is he big part for the Trotz secret recipe or is he just a coat tail riding toadie?

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I have a gut feeling Torts takes a season off.

That may be best for him. He genuinely seems to be interested in improving and often times for a coach that means time away from the grind, for reflection.

 

[rt]

Talk about spin, rt!, Pro Tocchet commenters think that with a better roster the Coyotes could avoid embarrassment in the first round of the playoffs. No post that I have read, except perhaps Morgan's stuff, says that Tocchet is a good coach. What they do say is that the roster is soooo very poor that no coach could do better than a 1st round blowout this year.

My point is that Tocchet has been that shiny round object that gets everybody's attention while the real problem, the roster, gets lip service.

Are you on Twitter? AZCI? There are many Tocchet lovers out there. Many haters too. Comments on AZCI posts are 90% pro Tocchet. Replies to Morgan and Natty Hatty tweets are like 70% pro Tocchet. Replies to team tweets or tweets from National guys about Tocchet seem majority anti Tocchet. Simply put; Morgan fans are Tocchet fans, for the most part.

This forum has some pretty vocal anti Morgan posters. And it’s a 95% anti Tocchet board.

 

[RABBIT]

Friedman on the 31 thoughts podcast doubles down in the younger names that have been rumored so far as in Rocky Thompson, Leaman, Lambert, Van Ryn.

Says he’s not sure Van Ryn would be interested, sounds like speculation. Was asked about Stillman, says he’s hearing he’ll get a coaching gig, just “not yet.”

bummed we don’t seem to be considering Gallant or BB.

 

[Mosby]

We don’t even have the worst roster in our division let alone league.

We should have made the playoffs this season because on paper we have the fourth or fifth best roster in our division. Good coaching gives it that extra umph into a playoff berth.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

All this poor roster talk is born of RT lovers/apologists. I heard a lot of the same crap in my locker room last night. The man has a poor head coaching coaching record and further confirmed he’s not a quality head coach in his time here.

 

[Sm00chy]

Eichel. We don't have an Eichel.

They still don't have a better roster than the Coyotes. This should be obvious....

 

[rt]

The best solution would be Torts in my opinion, next would be Gallant, maybe Boudrou. I don't think any of them are an option simply because of cost. A top tier proven coach will get $4 mill a year now on a multi year deal, say 4 years. We simply don't have that budget. The next coach will be an assistant or somebody unproven at the NHL head coaching level because of cost. It is what it is, we will get a dice roll similar to RT, we aren't getting somebody proven like a Tip/Torts/Gallant/Q.

I agree mostly (think Torts needs to adapt again, like he did once before but needs another level up, he’s turned dinosaur twice on us - lol). But I’d prefer Gallant or Boudreau to an unproven guy. I’m with you there. I also agree that I don’t think that’ll happen. I don’t think they’ll come to a crossroads team that nobody can see the path forward for. They certainly won’t do it for bottom 5-10 money. No way.

I think we should learn our lesson from Tocchet and not take the same type of risk. I’m not looking for someone who’s ONLY success has been player and Assistant Coach. Not looking for a guy who got gifted his chances based on the respect and friends currency left from playing days.

I think it’s much less of a gamble to hire someone who had to start at the bottom and work their way up based on merit. Someone who’s results forced their opportunities to materialize. And continued season after season, league after league.

I think NHL playing experience is a plus. I think NHL assistant coaching experience is a plus. Bonus points for demonstrating success in both. But I’d rather see emphasis on actual Head Coaching results. Real successes not in assistant roles or player roles. Someone who’s been the top bench boss and won. Even if it’s CHL, ECHL, and AHL.

If you want younger guys who’ve been fast-tracked, then MVR, Knoblauch, and Rocky Thompson are options to look at. If you want older guys with a longer track record than Laxdal or Todd Nelson would be worth looking at.

Lane Lambert and Brad Larsen are two that I’m a little more skeptical of for Tocchet reasons. Maybe that’s unfair. And they’ve definite advantage more AHL coaching experience, etc. but I’m nervous about “good guy, works hard, loves the game” types who happen to be popular and have the right connections.

 

[Mosby]

Leaman could be interesting with the right pro assistants. Sort of like Jacques Martin is to David Quinn with the NYR.

I wonder if Stillman would take a new deal with the caveat that he becomes head coach in Tucson. Is that seen as a better path to presumably his ultimate goal of becoming an NHL HC? Same applies to Varady.

What happens with Housley? He still has a year left. He was actually a decent assistant in Nashville. Is there enough there where you can just wash off the Tocchet stink and place him in a new system and he’d be fine? Maybe give him the PK instead of the PP?

And then just go out and find some other veteran assistant or former HC to fill the other AC role.

 

[Summer Rose]

They still don't have a better roster than the Coyotes. This should be obvious....

Hell, the Oilers barely have a better roster as the sum of its parts than us. They just happen to have the best player in the world and the (probably) best German player of all time. Past those two? I’m not personally that impressed.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

All this poor roster talk is born of RT lovers/apologists. I heard a lot of the same crap in my locker room last night. The man has a poor head coaching coaching record and further confirmed he’s not a quality head coach in his time here.

Tocchet's work as a head coach in Tampa was uninspiring at best, but he's a good buddy to the NHL community and a nice guy to the media, and he was able to get Phil Kessel to perform with the Pens, and so people believe that his players let him down. What people ignore is where Tampa went with virtually the same roster after Tocchet left.

Tocchet is good people, by all reports, but as a head coach he's more like a coaching version of Pizza Goalie.

 

[Sm00chy]

Hell, the Oilers barely have a better roster as the sum of its parts than us. They just happen to have the best player in the world and the (probably) best German player of all time. Past those two? I’m not personally that impressed.

Eichel is a very good hockey player. But this isnt basketball... you need a TEAM to be successful. One player does not get you very far in this league. That is blatantly obvious when you look at the Oilers since they drafted McDavid.

The Yotes have problems with regards to their roster. But saying they are the worst in the league is probably a frustrated fan that had unrealistic expectations heading into this season.

 

[RemoAZ]

Probably better to wait and see who Armstrong actually interviews before we get so emotional over this. I think we'll have a clearer picture of what he's looking for when we see the list.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Probably better to wait and see who Armstrong actually interviews before we get so emotional over this. I think we'll have a clearer picture of what he's looking for when we see the list.

We may not actually see a list. BA seems to play his cards close to the vest.

 

[rt]

From 31 Thoughts it seems like we're looking at 40s > 50s > 60s (and we can forget about 60s).

 

[cobra427]

I agree mostly (think Torts needs to adapt again, like he did once before but needs another level up, he’s turned dinosaur twice on us - lol). But I’d prefer Gallant or Boudreau to an unproven guy. I’m with you there. I also agree that I don’t think that’ll happen. I don’t think they’ll come to a crossroads team that nobody can see the path forward for. They certainly won’t do it for bottom 5-10 money. No way.

I think we should learn our lesson from Tocchet and not take the same type of risk. I’m not looking for someone who’s ONLY success has been player and Assistant Coach. Not looking for a guy who got gifted his chances based on the respect and friends currency left from playing days.

I think it’s much less of a gamble to hire someone who had to start at the bottom and work their way up based on merit. Someone who’s results forced their opportunities to materialize. And continued season after season, league after league.

I think NHL playing experience is a plus. I think NHL assistant coaching experience is a plus. Bonus points for demonstrating success in both. But I’d rather see emphasis on actual Head Coaching results. Real successes not in assistant roles or player roles. Someone who’s been the top bench boss and won. Even if it’s CHL, ECHL, and AHL.

If you want younger guys who’ve been fast-tracked, then MVR, Knoblauch, and Rocky Thompson are options to look at. If you want older guys with a longer track record than Laxdal or Todd Nelson would be worth looking at.

Lane Lambert and Brad Larsen are two that I’m a little more skeptical of for Tocchet reasons. Maybe that’s unfair. And they’ve definite advantage more AHL coaching experience, etc. but I’m nervous about “good guy, works hard, loves the game” types who happen to be popular and have the right connections.

RT I agree with your post. I think that is the direction BA will go, a better experienced coach that has won as a head coach, worked his way up, but not the more proven and very expensive Torts/Gallant/Boudrou.

 

[Jagged Ice]

Eichel is a very good hockey player. But this isnt basketball... you need a TEAM to be successful. One player does not get you very far in this league. That is blatantly obvious when you look at the Oilers since they drafted McDavid.

Who wants this contract and pouty face on the bench?

Wherever that may be? He's the captain.

 

[rt]

Five guys in their 40s who's names are bound to come up a lot:

Mike Van Ryn
Kris Knoblauch
Rocky Thompson
Andre Tourigny
Brad Larsen