MLD 2011 Draft Thread I

[DaveG]

This is true in general, but Iain seems to be saying that the WCHL All-Star teams were put together by one single hockey writer, in which case, who knows what criteria he used?



Ohh, didn't see that. I thought it was something like "experience in a top professional league," which would exclude the AHL, but include the SEL, since it is the top league of Sweden. Doubt it makes much of a difference, if any at all.

I would say there should be an exception for the AHL if they played in the lockout year. A significant amount of ATD draft talent played in the AHL that season who otherwise would have been in the NHL had there not been a lockout. I will say though that I really can't think of anyone off the top of my head that would be good enough to be drafted here where they would otherwise not have the necessary 300 games played.

 

[seventieslord]

I would say there should be an exception for the AHL if they played in the lockout year. A significant amount of ATD draft talent played in the AHL that season who otherwise would have been in the NHL had there not been a lockout. I will say though that I really can't think of anyone off the top of my head that would be good enough to be drafted here where they would otherwise not have the necessary 300 games played.

Nope, I don't think anyone would fit that bill anymore.

So, about my idea.....

 

[DaveG]

Nope, I don't think anyone would fit that bill anymore.

So, about my idea.....

I wouldn't be against it. Definitely a rule that should be considered for future drafts about the bios, not just in the MLD but the ATD as well. To be honest, if I felt one of the ones in question were eligible I definitely would have drafted him myself in the ATD.

 

[Dreakmur]

let's be reality here, the definition of power forward changes daily as the person describing it sees fit.

My definition has always been what I just said. I've also always known I was in the minority with that belief.

It doesn't matter anyway. Whether you agree with my definition is irrelivant. All that matters is that Jokinen is skilled, he is fast, and he is powerful. Whether he uses those skills in the fashion that believe he should is also irrelivant. Punishing a player because he isn't what you believe he should be is disrespectful to what he actually is. Just like Stephane Richer, who is unfairly criticized for not living up to the "next Guy Lafleur" label, it's not right to judge Jokinen for what he is not - judge him for what he is. He is a great goalscorer for this level. He has a very uncommon blend of skill, speed, and size, espesially for this level. He may not be your definition of a power forward, but he is very strong on the puck and along the boards, and he also stands tough in the slot. While his game is somewhat inconsistent, when he is on, he is a force all over the ice, in all aspects of the game.

 

[Stoneberg]

Sleepwatchers will go with Howie Meeker.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

My definition has always been what I just said. I've also always known I was in the minority with that belief.

It doesn't matter anyway. Whether you agree with my definition is irrelivant. All that matters is that Jokinen is skilled, he is fast, and he is powerful. Whether he uses those skills in the fashion that believe he should is also irrelivant. Punishing a player because he isn't what you believe he should be is disrespectful to what he actually is. Just like Stephane Richer, who is unfairly criticized for not living up to the "next Guy Lafleur" label, it's not right to judge Jokinen for what he is not - judge him for what he is. He is a great goalscorer for this level. He has a very uncommon blend of skill, speed, and size, espesially for this level. He may not be your definition of a power forward, but he is very strong on the puck and along the boards, and he also stands tough in the slot. While his game is somewhat inconsistent, when he is on, he is a force all over the ice, in all aspects of the game.

Wouldn't "he is a force all over the ice, in all aspects of the game" indicate that he was something other than awful defensively?

 

[Dreakmur]

Wouldn't "he is a force all over the ice, in all aspects of the game" indicate that he was something other than awful defensively?

It would... And that's exactly why I said it. He's inconsistent defensively, but he has shown an ability to be good when he feels like it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It would... And that's exactly why I said it. He's inconsistent defensively, but he has shown an ability to be good when he feels like it.

He must not feel like it often.

 

[TheJudge]

With pick #200, the Pittsburgh Hornets select Dallas Drake, RW/LW.

Drake will serve well on the Hornets' energy line.

You bugger

 

[Dreakmur]

He must not feel like it often.

He did when he was in Florida. For whatever reason, that coach, that GM, those team mates, those fans, or that city just brought the best out of him. He has been pretty useless in Calgary, that's for sure.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

There was something about Cameron playing forward posted during the recently-completed ATD2010 but I certainly don't have the energy to go digging when the search function is broken.

As I said, when Cameron played in the Prairie league he was exclusively a LW. I know this because I compiled the stats from that league on a game-by-game basis some years ago. He may have played some LW in his last WHL year as well, I haven't looked at that at all.

It is disingenuous, however, to imply that there's not a connection between defenseman point totals and all-star teams. Right or wrong, there always has been. To question such a glaring discrepancy there makes perfect sense.

It would be disingenuous to suggest that, in general, there is no relationship. But that does not mean that in specific cases big point totals are not ignored in favour of more defensively-minded blueliners. I'm sure we could both come up with numerous examples if we just thought about it for a minute.

And it does appear that the All-Star selections in question were made by a small number of people, and possibly a single person. If that small group has a particular bias towards defence, or even a distaste for Cameron's style of play, that could explain his omission.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

This is true in general, but Iain seems to be saying that the WCHL All-Star teams were put together by one single hockey writer, in which case, who knows what criteria he used?

This is the thing. I worry that we're looking at these selections as if they were modern ones, with modern selection procedures and standards. It doesn't look that way.

 

[vecens24]

Dreak I'll be very curious for you to find quotes saying Jokinen is good defensively, or even average. Because I've never seen him as anything but lazy defensively.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He did when he was in Florida. For whatever reason, that coach, that GM, those team mates, those fans, or that city just brought the best out of him. He has been pretty useless in Calgary, that's for sure.

He put forth more effort offensively in Florida, but his defensive reputation was always horrendous.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Dreak I'll be very curious for you to find quotes saying Jokinen is good defensively, or even average. Because I've never seen him as anything but lazy defensively.

Google "Jokinen terrible defensively," and there are some gems on the first page.

 

[TheJudge]

As a flames fan, I've watched Jokinen quite closely over the past 2 years.

Overall I feel his defensive play has been acceptable, although nothing special. He has progressed from his time in Florida where he was quite one dimensional.

To me to it seems like lately the effort has been there, but the defensive instincts and anticipation are lacking. He has been back checking hard, but does not always get himself in proper position, or cover the right man. I'd be worried about matching him in a checking role with the expectation of limiting scoring chances; but at the same time he is not, or at least no longer, a liability.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Nope, I don't think anyone would fit that bill anymore.

So, about my idea.....

When would the bidding for this player even happen? After the drafting process is over?

 

[Dreakmur]

Google "Jokinen terrible defensively," and there are some gems on the first page.

Do the same for Bryan McCabe... He was very good defensively most of the time.

 

[overpass]

My strongest impression of Jokinen was the huge circles he skated after losing the puck or losing a puck battle. I don't know if I've seen another veteran NHL centre who was that bad.

But I mostly saw him in Florida (and not that often) so he certainly may have improved.

 

[seventieslord]

When would the bidding for this player even happen? After the drafting process is over?

ASAP, preferably. So that whoever takes him is only upsetting a half-done roster and not a full one. And whoever is ultimately the "odd player out" still gets picked up later this draft.

DaveG and jkrx is skipped, dreakmur is up.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Do the same for Bryan McCabe... He was very good defensively most of the time.

The difference is that with Bryan McCabe, the defensive statistics, such as they are, suggest that he was usually pretty good defensively, or at least his team was solid with him on the ice. Jokinen's defensive statistics appear to be generally awful.

So McCabe appears to have been usually pretty good in his own zone, but with some really spectacular brainfarts. Jokinen appears to have been usually very bad in his own zone, though perhaps he has been acceptable for the past year or two.

 

[DaveG]

Warroad selects C Andrew Cassels

 

[jarek]

The WCHL All Star teams may indeed have been put together by the Morning Leader. Check my Duke Keats bio. That whole spiel about how he was selected to the AST over Irvin because of his defense was two guys discussing it over coffee.

 

[seventieslord]

Warroad selects C Andrew Cassels

Good pick. He's actually not too far off from a lot of the recent offensive centers taken. Plus he has some value on the penalty kill.

Very, very consistent. I was comparing his six best percentage seasons with a group of about 8 other centers, and I was amazed to find that he had the worst "best season" of the group, but the best "6th-best season".

 

[Dreakmur]

The difference is that with Bryan McCabe, the defensive statistics, such as they are, suggest that he was usually pretty good defensively, or at least his team was solid with him on the ice. Jokinen's defensive statistics appear to be generally awful.

So McCabe appears to have been usually pretty good in his own zone, but with some really spectacular brainfarts. Jokinen appears to have been usually very bad in his own zone, though perhaps he has been acceptable for the past year or two.

So the minute leader on a terrible team has poor defensive stats? Go figure..... How many defensive stats does the NHL actually keep? +/- and what?


Honestly, I don't know exactly how Defensive Point Shares are calculated, but Jokinen ranks well in that statsistic during his time in Florida. He was also a team leader in short-handed scoring during his peak.