OT: MLB Discussion Thread: Part XXIV

[GoAwayPanarin]

I would be shocked to get Kluber without giving up Florial.Thats exactly 1 of the pieces i would be asking for if i was the Indians.I also wouldnt make any trade unless he was part of the package - if i was them.

I don't understand why the Yankees are dead set on hanging onto him like hes the 2nd coming of Trout.

He may be very good one day, but he also might not. We need help right now.

 

[romba]

George would sacrifice a bit short term profit for winning, and they’d still make money hand over foot and their brand value probably benefited from the attention being perennial WS contenders garnered them as well.

The current regime seems much more numbers driven (see: focus on analytics) and is unwilling to make the same sacrifices on the bottom line to ensure victory. It’s hard to ‘bite the bullet’ and bump the salary by 30 mill when that’s no ‘guarantee’ to be better, and we can just wait for our cost controlled prospect to do the same job but only cheaper, like it’s a guarantee! When the prospects pan out like Judge the team gets accolades and basks in the glow, when they don’t pan out they’ll look like fools falling flat on their face.

And the party line that the Yanks got unlucky and are as good as the Sox is such bull shit. It sounds like fanboys run the organization now. Not ‘It pains me to say it but yes they were better, and we won’t let that happen again’, instead ‘they were lucky we’re just as good I promise waaaaa’. Even if it were the case (it isn’t), don’t leave it up to chance and make DAMNED sure a little bad luck can be overcome by talent. It’s just a transparent cover in case they have the balls to sign any big names.

 

[NYR Viper]

How much money do the Yankees make by making the World Series? How about just making it to the ALCS? How about, how much do they make from jersey sales, etc from someone like Judge?

They may pay someone like Machado $30m a year and have to really pay $45m, but because they are the Yankees, they won't touch paying that on the way out. Sign good players, recoup money in ticket sales, recoup money in merchandise, recoup money in playoff revenue, etc.

 

[Bob Richards]

Also, if you spend money and hit into the luxury tax stuff does everyone in the NYC area get napalmed too? I don't get why it's a life and death reality lol

They're one of the richest sports teams on the planet.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Harper+Stanton+ Judge = $90m right there. That's just 3 players. All here on 10 year deals. Now tack on Severino, Betances, Sanchez, Didi......how much are you paying now? And that is only 7 players. That is not cheaping out, but NO ONE can blame Steinbrenner if he does not want to be forced to spend double the amounts on free agents. Cheaping out? How much did they spend last year on pay roll? Cheaping out? Give me a break.

Again, I've gone on record saying that I'm reserving judgement (pun not intended) until all the dominoes have fallen and that this is me speaking in a hypothetical kind of manner.

If you get Machado, do you have to keep Didi? Even Harper. Who says you can't move Stanton at some point? The vibe I get from your responses to me is that you're operating under the assumption that no salary is move or trades are made. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

The LAST thing that this team needs is another right handed hitter. Machado? Let's see, bad attitude, prohibitive contract, no hustle, no hitting in the post season. Haven't we seen this movie before and know exactly how it turns out?

Yes, I know they don't need anymore right-handed bats. However, I don't know how you pass a gamebreaker like Machado up. Harper to me has been far more inconsistent, even though he's a left handed bat. If he's willing to take a discount to play in NY (he might, don't know many outfielders that come out and claim their love for the Yankees publicly, then play 1B against them when they're struggling for production at that position - if that doesn't scream "sign me," I don't know what does) and if so, I'd have to pull a trigger.

Also, who says a 10 year $300 million dollar deal is going to be the deal signed for these guys? Maybe they take 8 with the player option. 10 years to 36 years old isn't even terrible. They did worse with A-Rod's extension.

Not only that, but the luxury tax is something they went over without a care for YEARS, why all of a sudden now is it a problem?

Hal cares more about money, George cared about more winning. George understood that winning would generate more revenue and wanted to win at all costs.

 

[True Blue]

Nobody is asking them to go way over the threshold.

They've signed precisely nobody this offseason and aren't in any rumors that come out.

That is a bit disingenuous. Sure they did not "sign" anyone. But they did trade for Paxson, which does not qualify as them sitting on their heels.

Surely there's a middle ground between doing nothing and burning $100m

I am serious. And don't call me Shirley.

They clearly did not want to go beyond 5 years on Corbin, which I can certainly understand. And what else d do you want them to do? Which free agent is burning a hole in your wallet? If they sign either Harper or Machado, they will do precisely as you are saying for them not to do, which is go way over the threshold. Way beyond it and locked into it for a good amount of years. Maybe not this year, but with in a year or two.

 

[True Blue]

I don't get why it's a life and death reality lol

Because paying $1.5 on the dollar for every dollar is just not a smart way to conduct business. Hamstringing your budget does not success build.

They're one of the richest sports teams on the planet.

Very easy to say when it is not your business. If they want to go out and sign a free agent, and now instead of spending $100m on this player, they have to spend $150m. They are not made out of money. For how long do you think such a business model is sustainable?

 

[True Blue]

If you get Machado, do you have to keep Didi? Even Harper. Who says you can't move Stanton at some point? The vibe I get from your responses to me is that you're operating under the assumption that no salary is move or trades are made. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

My axiom is that they cannot afford to have 3 $300m players. When you factor in hamstringing the budget, along what Didi does as compared to Machado, you find the differential getting smaller.

However, I don't know how you pass a gamebreaker like Machado up.

Machado, would not have made a lick of difference in the Yankess post season last year and would have been booed mercifully at Yankee stadium. Clearly I have no crystal ball, but looking at the reasoning the Yankees lost and how Machado performed in the playoffs, don't see how he makes them advance.[/QUOTE]

If he's willing to take a discount to play in NY (he might, don't know many outfielders that come out and claim their love for the Yankees publicly, then play 1B against them when they're struggling for production at that position - if that doesn't scream "sign me," I don't know what does) and if so, I'd have to pull a trigger.

Ahh. Well that changes the equation. Now we are discussing Harper taking a discount. Sure, if he was to take a discount, then of course it needs to be explored. That said, I cannot see Boras not getting him his $300m somewhere.

Also, who says a 10 year $300 million dollar deal is going to be the deal signed for these guys? Maybe they take 8 with the player option. 10 years to 36 years old isn't even terrible. They did worse with A-Rod's extension.

It will be a contract you are cursing him for in the last 3 years of the deal. Who says $300m? Stanton set the line. These are younger, better players. And just because Hank Steinbrenner did an awful move with the ARod extension, does not mean that history needs to repeat itself.

Not only that, but the luxury tax is something they went over without a care for YEARS, why all of a sudden now is it a problem?

Because now it has teeth. And if you astronomically go over, the penalties are quite punitive.

Hal cares more about money, George cared about more winning. George understood that winning would generate more revenue and wanted to win at all costs.

Bull. Come on now. Hal does not care about winning and cares more about money? He traded for a $300m player for crying out loud. Look what he signed Chapman to. He pays more than any other owner. You are linking very, very bad business habits to caring about winning. Sort of like the Rangers with the cap. Like it or not, it needs to be addressed. Otherwise, you hamstring yourself for years and years to come.

 

[darko]

Yeah but the Yankees are also twice as valuable as the Mets.

And then there is the whole luxury tax thing. Theres a reason why they shed payroll.

It's been mentioned so many times yet ppl just insist of calling them cheap. There is a good reason they shed payroll.

 

[darko]

I fail to see how the luxury tax should even be a consideration here. The team, even when hitting well into the luxury tax, is still incredibly profitable.

Why wouldn't you lower the tax from 50% to 22.5/30/40 in the next 3 years? That's a lot of coin.

 

[Cassano]

Clint Frazier and Jacoby Ellsbury

 

[JCProdigy]

I'm gonna lay out some facts and some opinions and I'll try to keep it succinct. Luxury tax system currently in place (Salary tax threshold exceeded = % tax on money over threshold, % increases after consecutive years above threshold.) came into being in 2002. The % taxed has changed from CBA to CBA but not overly that much since 2012. Right now it's 20% 1st year, 30% 2nd year, 50% thereafter. Threshold will increase 2 mil a year through 2021 until current CBA expires and then we don't know what will happen.

How long can a team live over the tax and deal with its punitive effects? Well 14 years would be a good start I guess since the Yankees were over the threshold from 2003-2017. During that time the Yanks revenue went from 238 mil (2003) to 619 mil (2017). Certainly seemed to be reaping the benefits financially from signing/trading for big name players.

Note that in that time period, the two biggest jumps in revenue happened from 2008 to 2009 (+66 mil) and 16-17 (+93 mil!). So that would be the Championship year and the year that a fun Yankees team made the fanbase think they could win it all again.

Also a pertinent number: Percentage of revenue used on player payroll, Yankees 2018? 26.8%, second lowest in MLB to the rebuilding White Sox. Oh and the WS champs, the ones that embarrassed the Yankees? 51.6% 5th highest.

George wanted to win at all costs, sometimes to the team's detriment (1980s) but he also realized everybody loves a winner and big names sell. You do both and you have the NYY brand and that increase in revenue above happens.

Stanton counts $22 mil against the luxury tax payroll btw and he can (and likely will) opt out after 2020. Machado and Harper will undoubtedly have the same built into their contracts.

Personally I don't mind if they were gluttonous and go after both Harper and Machado. Two potential HOF players playing in their 26 year old season. Get another top of the rotation arm. Then lets go play Sweet MFing Caroline from the 9th inning of every WS clincher the Yanks get until spring training the next year.

 

[Cassano]

I love how the FO is ignoring that we have no impact lefty bat. Ya let's not sign Harper, a generational talentbecause we have Ellsbury Frazier and old man Gardner (bless his soul). He is such a perfect fit with the stadium that it is puzzling why they aren't making accommodations for him.

We will see you guys at the Wild Card game again.

 

[Cassano]

Maeda 2.0 at best

 

[RGY]

This says it all. Its so true.

Also saying we dont have a spot for Harper is just taking the easy way out rather than admitting your being cheap. So it isnt the money, its the roster. And citing Ellsbury, Gardner, and Frazier as the bumps to you getting a generational talent that is a lefty bat is absurd. ABSURD. And the guy is a pure athlete...he moved from Catcher (his original position) to OF...and yet he cant make the move to 1B? Which most catchers do anyway!?!?!?

f***ing insanity Cashman. Insanity.

 

[RGY]

More...



Fair. But youre getting to a point where you may have to expand your budgeted price points to ensure you get the arm you want/NEED.



And yet you low balled him...



They want to keep Didi longterm - Sherman

 

[Cassano]

Dodgers making moves to accommodate Harper potentially. A task that Cashman is making it seem like it is impossible.

 

[Paulie Walnutz]

I love how the FO is ignoring that we have no impact lefty bat. Ya let's not sign Harper, a generational talentbecause we have Ellsbury Frazier and old man Gardner (bless his soul). He is such a perfect fit with the stadium that it is puzzling why they aren't making accommodations for him.

We will see you guys at the Wild Card game again.

Unless Cashman is playing a game of poker and doesn’t want to reveal his hand. I’ll be pissed if the only off season move is Paxton

 

[nyr2k2]

Just MO, but on Harper, I don't know that he's a generational talent. Mike Trout is the guy in this generation and he's no Trout. Posting WARs around 4 every year is great but doesn't really do it for me. He needs to repeat that 9+ WAR year a handful more times, at least. I mean I have no doubt he'll end up in the HOF and all that, but he won't be remembered as the generational guy for this generation. Again, IMO.

And like, it's not a Crosby/Ovechkin thing. Trout has literally twice the total WAR that Harper has. It's not close. It would be like if Ovechkin went 30-20 every year and Sidney went 40-50, or something like that. There room for multiple generational talents, but when one is so vastly superior, it's hard to justify more than just the one.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Still think Machado ends up here

 

[Cassano]

Just MO, but on Harper, I don't know that he's a generational talent. Mike Trout is the guy in this generation and he's no Trout. Posting WARs around 4 every year is great but doesn't really do it for me. He needs to repeat that 9+ WAR year a handful more times, at least. I mean I have no doubt he'll end up in the HOF and all that, but he won't be remembered as the generational guy for this generation. Again, IMO.

And like, it's not a Crosby/Ovechkin thing. Trout has literally twice the total WAR that Harper has. It's not close. It would be like if Ovechkin went 30-20 every year and Sidney went 40-50, or something like that. There room for multiple generational talents, but when one is so vastly superior, it's hard to justify more than just the one.

Fair. I think the terminology is just off. Trout is indeed a generational player. Harper has that level of talent.

 

[Machinehead]

Either they don't want to spend any money or they actually think they're as good as the Red Sox. Which is it?

 

[Cassano]

Either they don't want to spend any money or they actually think they're as good as the Red Sox. Which is it?

We haven't won the division since 2012.

Enough is enough.

 

[nyr2k2]

Fair. I think the terminology is just off. Trout is indeed a generational player. Harper has that level of talent.

Right, he just has to use it consistently. Just like his buddy Strasburg who was a generational talent before he ever threw a pitch, the best pitching prospect ever, etc.

 

[RGY]

Prefer Harper. But come away with Machado.

The other names in that tweet should be support players.

Trade for Kluber