Mitch Marner's Contract

[LarKing]

That’s exactly what Tampa’s being punished for now. They might have the worst cap situation in the league, but who predicted Cirelli as a potential future 1C, Cernak as a 2/3D, Point as a 1C and Kucherov and Vasilevskiy to get paid right after winning major awards? It’s a good problem to have, but it’s also not a problem teams should have.

The league needs to do something about this. @Northern Avs Fan had an idea I liked. Players you draft should count against the cap only 75%. It won’t make any difference towards revenue as the cap is a construct to balance spending, so I don’t see why it’d be a problem. I think when all your good teams in the cap era have cap problems, you have to start considering that your cap system needs changing.

Decent idea in theory but you’d be all but getting rid of free agency. Why would a player go and sign for 6M when his team could offer him 8M for the same percentage of cap?

 

[ACC1224]

Once caving on Nylander and then mistakenly signing Matthews first there was no chance Marner was going to come in at a decent number.
Extra cap space would be nice but at least he’ll bring the elite production which makes it at least palatable

 

[SNES]

Once caving on Nylander and then mistakenly signing Matthews first there was no chance Marner was going to come in at a decent number.
Extra cap space would be nice but at least he’ll bring the elite production which makes it at least palatable

Really like your honest takes on leaf players lately in numerous threads. Nice to see a level headed leaf fan, you give your fanbase much respect

 

[ACC1224]

Really like your honest takes on leaf players lately in numerous threads. Nice to see a level headed leaf fan, you give your fanbase much respect

There are many of us that try and be honest in our posts.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You argued nonstop about him getting what he got prior to the signing and attacked people that said he would.

Actually, my main issue was with certain posters who incessantly claimed that he would be paid the same as Matthews for some arbitrary reason (didn't happen - got less money and more term), or who claimed that Marner was overrated/bad, but would be overpaid solely because they believed Dubas sucked (didn't happen - paid according to his production level, and has remained one of the best players in the league).

 

[Dekes For Days]

The point was trade him before Dubas rolled over.

Once caving on Nylander

Dubas didn't "roll over" or "cave". He literally did the opposite. He stuck to his amount that worked for the team, even if it meant Nylander sat. In the end, Nylander called Dubas up and accepted.

 

[I am Canadian]

It is overblown a lot though. Leafs don't have a single buyout candidate.

They don't have dead cap that many many many teams do.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Dubas didn't "roll over" or "cave". He literally did the opposite. He stuck to his amount that worked for the team, even if it meant Nylander sat. In the end, Nylander called Dubas up and accepted.

Yeah, I know. You keep saying this shit and have zero evidence that it's the case.

Keep going. Eventually somebody outside Toronto may believe it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yeah, I know.

If you know, why do you keep making false claims that Dubas caved, and false claims that it negatively affected other negotiations?

 

[PB37]

There's a reason why Dubas won that poll. The overpayment of Matthews, Marner, and Tavares are the evidence of that.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Who's next, Tavares or Nylander?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

The current setup is actually great because the teams with just a bunch of good or very good players don't win. The very best players, who singlehandedly lift their teammates when sharing the ice, are worth much more than their cap hit and tend to make their teams successful.

They still have cap problems. Pittsburgh is up against the cap every year.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Decent idea in theory but you’d be all but getting rid of free agency. Why would a player go and sign for 6M when his team could offer him 8M for the same percentage of cap?

I don’t think teams should be building in a salary cap league through free agency. If you want to accomplish any type of parity, you reward drafting, developing and trading, not buying. At the same time, I think the current cap system makes team windows too narrow. This change would make them bigger and wouldn’t punish teams for having too many good players.

I also don’t think it would completely eliminate free agency. Your point is valid that all things being equal a contract from the team that drafted you could be bigger than from another team in the league, but if you really wanted to leave to another team in free agency, you could still do so. All things also aren’t always equal. Teams might still run into cap problems and not have the advantage of offering a player 25% more salary than another team would. And once you left to another team, you are part of a pool of NHL players where this mechanism doesn’t work for, so there still would be a built-in pool of free agents.

 

[Maplebeasts]

Has any contract Dubas signed been a steal? lol. Overpaid here too.

Better to overpay Star players then *checks notes* Kris Russell LMAO.

 

[LarKing]

I don’t think teams should be building in a salary cap league through free agency. If you want to accomplish any type of parity, you reward drafting, developing and trading, not buying. At the same time, I think the current cap system makes team windows too narrow. This change would make them bigger and wouldn’t punish teams for having too many good players.

I also don’t think it would completely eliminate free agency. Your point is valid that all things being equal a contract from the team that drafted you could be bigger than from another team in the league, but if you really wanted to leave to another team in free agency, you could still do so. All things also aren’t always equal. Teams might still run into cap problems and not have the advantage of offering a player 25% more salary than another team would. And once you left to another team, you are part of a pool of NHL players where this mechanism doesn’t work for, so there still would be a built-in pool of free agents.

I think you’re underestimating how big of an advantage the home team would have in being able to offer 25% more. You would essentially eliminate free agency. I don’t think this would accomplish the goal either as it would just make the home signed contracts normal and all the players would demand more.

 

[Maplebeasts]

It's amazing how much different the Leafs could be if they hadn't screwed up their contracts.

Flubbing Nylander's negotiations gave Matthews and Marner all the ammo they needed to work Dubas over. Could've traded him for a defender, mitigated that issue, and probably save a few million in cap on Marner and Matthews. Not having Nylander would suck, but now they're in a situation where their defense is rough, and they don't really have the cap to fix it.

But the Nylander contract is good. He was pacing for a tad under 40 goals and a tad over 70 points while being the best possession player on the team. 7 mil for that is fine. They have enough depth at forward to trade Johnsson or Kapanen without missing a beat offensively to add a dman and have both Liljegren and Sandin coming up next season full time.

 

[McDavidCrushedLarkin]

Better to overpay Star players then *checks notes* Kris Russell LMAO.

Russell would be exactly the type of player your lame duck defence needs ironically. Rather underpay stars like Draisaitl and McDavid and have money to spend on other players, but Dumbass gonna Dumbass.

 

[TS Quint]

I voted overpaid, but the reason for the overpayment was the Matthews contract. Dubas dug himself a hole when it came to negotiating with Marner because he already handed an even worse contract out the year prior.

So better contract that Matthews but still slightly overpaid. The Matthews contract is the only thing that prevented Marner from getting the Rantanen contract.

It all started with “They’re all going to fit”. The players took that to mean Dubas was going to get them all to take less. Nylander was The first to say it wasn’t going to be him, in fact Nylander got above market value. Marner and Matthews followed. Dubas should have kept his punk mouth shut.

 

[TS Quint]

I'm going to post the same exact thing in both the Marner and Matthews thread.

I think both players deserve the money they've been paid. I think the problem is that the salary cap makes it such that if you want to not have big salary cap problems, you have to get these players to take a discount. Neither Matthews nor Marner took a discount. Many teams have gotten their star players to take discounts. The Leafs haven't, and they have salary cap problems because of it. I don't think they've managed their salary cap well, but I also can't try to say these players aren't worth their contracts. The NHL punishes teams into parity. The salary cap needs altering to not punish good teams for drafting well like it currently punishes Toronto and Tampa.

“Drafting well” in Toronto is paying the picks you tanked for: Reilly, Matthews, Nylander and Marner. Maybe they wouldn’t have that problem if they didn’t spend big in free agency to get Tavares either.

This isn’t unforeseen punishment, this is a plan. Also to be noted there have been worse plans than gathering talented players.

 

[TS Quint]

That’s exactly what Tampa’s being punished for now. They might have the worst cap situation in the league, but who predicted Cirelli as a potential future 1C, Cernak as a 2/3D, Point as a 1C and Kucherov and Vasilevskiy to get paid right after winning major awards? It’s a good problem to have, but it’s also not a problem teams should have.

The league needs to do something about this. @Northern Avs Fan had an idea I liked. Players you draft should count against the cap only 75%. It won’t make any difference towards revenue as the cap is a construct to balance spending, so I don’t see why it’d be a problem. I think when all your good teams in the cap era have cap problems, you have to start considering that your cap system needs changing.

Seems like Tampa is already using that system and it’s not helping.

But seriously, it doesn’t work because it costs the players money.

 

[Maplebeasts]

Russell would be exactly the type of player your lame duck defence needs ironically. Rather underpay stars like Draisaitl and McDavid and have money to spend on other players, but Dumbass gonna Dumbass.

Trust me bub. NO ONE wants Russell.

 

[TS Quint]

More accurately, many teams have had players that were significantly worse than Matthews/Marner were prior to signing their post-ELC contract, and because of this, some teams have players with better contracts relative to the player they became through their primes after signing.

Like Rantenen?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Like Rantenen?

No, Rantanen doesn't apply here. He has not progressed since signing; if anything, he has fallen back. The problem with Rantanen is that he got some of the most PP TOI in the league for multiple years, which for many, has inflated the perception of what Rantanen actually is.

 

[TS Quint]

Dubas didn't "roll over" or "cave". He literally did the opposite. He stuck to his amount that worked for the team, even if it meant Nylander sat. In the end, Nylander called Dubas up and accepted.

Who are you comparing Nylander to cap wise at the time to call it fair? I believe Ehlers was thrown out there quite a bit at the time. But Ehlers contract is better plus he has to play in Winnipeg and I’m told that city doesn’t have any parks or WiFi.

 

[TS Quint]

No, Rantanen doesn't apply here. He has not progressed since signing; if anything, he has fallen back. The problem with Rantanen is that he got some of the most PP TOI in the league for multiple years, which for many, has inflated the perception of what Rantanen actually is.

Looking back in hindsight isn’t how it works.

At the time Rantanen was a leading comparable. Are you saying at the time Marner was viewed as being that much better?