Mitch Marner Vs. Kapanen, Connor Brown, Kadri

[Dubi Doo]

Yes, take the bigger sample over the smaller sample. Playoffs matters, but not enough that an elite player is not elite because he's had a few bad playoff rounds.

The playoffs are a different beast, so it's not entirely fair to dismiss the fact that Marner has struggled when the going gets tough solely because he performs well in the regular season where teams play crappier teams, the pace isn't as intense, and the checking isn't as ferocious.

If we're specifically discussing the Leafs- I really like the idea of having three tough players to play against who can also put up points over an offensive 1st line winger who has been invisible in the playoffs thus far.

If there's one thing I've admired about Montreal- it's their relentless forecheck. It was on display in game 7 and again in game 1 against WPG. You need a certain team chemistry/mindset to really excel at that, and I think if we're talking strictly about the Leafs, then they'd benefit more in having three players who are not afraid to get their noses dirty to make/prevent a play. Of course, if you're a team like Vegas- then Marner would likely be the better option.

 

[TLEH]

Let's be honest here. The NHL playoffs are still clutch and grab and physical. You need to be able to be mentally strong enough to fight through the stuff that is normally penalties and you need to adapt your game around how it changes. Why do you think Tampa went and got guys like Coleman and Goodrow as complimentary pieces? Its just the reality of the league and whether I agree or not doesn't matter.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

You win with elite talent and depth.
It’s insane people watch this sport and still can’t figure that out.

If I’ve got Matthews and Tavares already on my team, along with Nylander, I’m taking option B all day for a playoff run.

It’s much easier to acquire depth than an elite player.

 

[Volica]

It’s much easier to acquire depth than an elite player.

Getting valuable a good depth is actually really difficult in today's NHL.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Getting valuable a good depth is actually really difficult in today's NHL.

Not as difficult as acquiring a top ten winger in the league.

 

[Volica]

Not as difficult as acquiring a top ten winger in the league.

Welp, all the elite talent in the world in Toronto didn't help them get dummied by a team that was sub-500 team that had worst record to make it into the playoffs this year.

Still blows me away fans haven't caught on you can't win without 10 valuable forwards and 5 valuable D in this league.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Not as difficult as acquiring a top ten winger in the league.

Only if the winger is not overpaid.

When the winger is overpaid, you have a high risk of him not performing and having your weak depth not being able to make up for it.

Its not easy to get depth with no cap space. The leafs' stars choked this year, next year the stars can show up and the weak depth can choke. You need BOTH.

 

[Fear]

I take the gamble that the elite player will overcome his mental gap and succeed in the playoffs. He has the talent and determination to do it. Datsyuk was also considered a playoff choker his first few years.

Kadri is a good player but you have no value when you're not playing.

Brown is decent but in the spirit of this thread he has scored 1 goal in 20 playoff games with the leafs

Kapanen is a spare part

 

[Sweetpotato]

Something that's lost in this situation...

depth+trade return for Marner>Marner

 

[CatchyTune]

Something that's lost...

depth+trade return for Marner>Marner

I wouldnt trade Marner for these guys. But if we could hypothetically trade Marner elsewhere for a boatload of futures, and then sign all these guys at their current deals, I would absolutely do that.

 

[Sweetpotato]

I wouldnt trade Marner for these guys. But if we could hypothetically trade Marner elsewhere for a boatload of futures, and then sign all these guys at their current deals, I would absolutely do that.

100%.

Hind sight 20/20, I don't think many people would've guessed Nylander would play that well in playoffs while Marner didn't.

Dubas won't do it, but moving Marner & Reilly while taking a run at Hamilton or Jones, resigning Hyman and filling out the roster with depth is the play IMO.

 

[SpezDispenser]

I'd still say Marner. Kadri...is not a player I like.

 

[CatchyTune]

100%.

Hind sight 20/20, I don't think many people would've guessed Nylander would play that well in playoffs while Marner didn't.

Dubas won't do it, but moving Marner & Reilly while taking a run at Hamilton or Jones, resigning Hyman and filling out the roster with depth is the play IMO.

Thats funny you say because thats exactly the 2 I think should be moved as well. Rielly shouldnt be here past his contract and if a core piece does go, it should be Marner. Dubas wont trade a core piece this offseason, but maybe after another playoff failure his hand will be forced.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Thats funny you say because thats exactly the 2 I think should be moved as well. Rielly shouldnt be here past his contract and if a core piece does go, it should be Marner. Dubas wont trade a core piece this offseason, but maybe after another playoff failure his hand will be forced.

What's Shanahan/Dubas' solution to "this team lacks killer instinct" if they're not moving one of the core pieces? Your killer instinct has to come from your core. Switching out, say, Engvall for Joe Warrior to play 10 minutes per night in the bottom six isn't going to make a difference to the overall killer instinct of the team.

 

[LeafGrief]

Absolutely hilarious that the spare parts are winning a poll, but this kind of trade gets shouted down on the trade boards a hundred times every single day. And don't pretend this is a playoffs thing either, because Kadri is far and away the biggest playoff liability in here.

 

[Sweetpotato]

Thats funny you say because thats exactly the 2 I think should be moved as well. Rielly shouldnt be here past his contract and if a core piece does go, it should be Marner. Dubas wont trade a core piece this offseason, but maybe after another playoff failure his hand will be forced.

I want to stress this though, if you get 18-19 or this playoffs Reilly I think you keep him, he played well this year vs MTL; but, it's hard to say whether you get that player long term and if you aren't his contract demands will be far greater than he's actually worth. Move him for a large haul and take a run at a top pair righty that Sandin will eventually play with.

As for Marner, simply put, it's the same thing as the thread that was made recently. Would you rather have 3-4 good depth forwards+the massive return Marner will get you or have Marner. With the fire power on the Leafs, you choose depth+assets.

This off season is so wide open so many GMs can get so creative with their cap space, most teams(Oilers/leafs being the ones I know best) can make huge strides by just being bold and creative.

 

[SullivanT]

This is tough for me because I really like Marner. He has yet to show up in the playoffs.
That said Kadri is always suspended in the playoffs. That leaves you with Connor Brown and Kcapitain lol. I really liked Connors second half of the season this year if he can continue that into next year he's gonna be one hell of a player.

Amazing how much talent has been spit out of Toronto they are definitely doing something right just need to figure put how to put it all together in the post season

 

[Breakers]

I'd rather have ALL 4.

And by that I mean that Tavares contract sucks and is the true problem with Toronto

 

[abo9]

The question is a little disingenuous imo because in the Leafs situation it would have made way too much sense to trade one of their top forwards to keep 3 players. But, if I'm Montreal, I trade Tatar + Drouin + whoever and play Marner instead.

In the Leaf's case, they DO have too much tied to those 4 players. Having a great 1-2 punch at C is great, so I'd keep Matthews/Tavares. Nylander is a solid player too, and makes $3M less (cap hit) than Marner. So, Marner is the odd one out imo and Leafs should reallocate this money to 2-3 players. Take a chance on a Toffoli and Anderson type players maybe, instead of Galchenyuk?

 

[CatchyTune]

What's Shanahan/Dubas' solution to "this team lacks killer instinct" if they're not moving one of the core pieces? Your killer instinct has to come from your core. Switching out, say, Engvall for Joe Warrior to play 10 minutes per night in the bottom six isn't going to make a difference to the overall killer instinct of the team.

Im just repeating what ive been told. Not what I want. Dubas said he isnt moving Matthews or Marner at the year end press conference. I personally wouldnt mind moving Marner but I dont run the team.

 

[CatchyTune]

I want to stress this though, if you get 18-19 or this playoffs Reilly I think you keep him, he played well this year vs MTL; but, it's hard to say whether you get that player long term and if you aren't his contract demands will be far greater than he's actually worth. Move him for a large haul and take a run at a top pair righty that Sandin will eventually play with.

As for Marner, simply put, it's the same thing as the thread that was made recently. Would you rather have 3-4 good depth forwards+the massive return Marner will get you or have Marner. With the fire power on the Leafs, you choose depth+assets.

This off season is so wide open so many GMs can get so creative with their cap space, most teams(Oilers/leafs being the ones I know best) can make huge strides by just being bold and creative.

I dont want to trade Rielly because I dont like him as a player. I just dont want to give him a massive contract that will take him into his mid-30's.

I would love to see Marner traded for a ton of futures, then utilize the cap space in this years UFA, getting some complimentary forwards like Saad/Palmieri/Granlund etc. You would also probably return a ready or near-ready NHL top prospect. Combine the top prospect with your own in Robertson, and you instantly gain 4-5 top 9 players.

 

[Sweetpotato]

I dont want to trade Rielly because I dont like him as a player. I just dont want to give him a massive contract that will take him into his mid-30's.

I would love to see Marner traded for a ton of futures, then utilize the cap space in this years UFA, getting some complimentary forwards like Saad/Palmieri/Granlund etc. You would also probably return a ready or near-ready NHL top prospect. Combine the top prospect with your own in Robertson, and you instantly gain 4-5 top 9 players.

Pretty much exactly what I was thinking.

Edmonton is in the same boat where if they somehow dump or buyout Neal and Koskinen and trade Kassian to someone who wants some grit they can sign a combination of 2 or 3 of Hyman, RNH, Saad, Palms, Tatar, Coleman, etc.

Best option that tbh Holland doesn't have the guts to pull off.

Saad, Hyman and Coleman are exactly the types of players TO and EDM need more of.

 

[biturbo19]

Absolutely hilarious that the spare parts are winning a poll, but this kind of trade gets shouted down on the trade boards a hundred times every single day. And don't pretend this is a playoffs thing either, because Kadri is far and away the biggest playoff liability in here.

The thing is, this isn't a "trade proposal" per se. It's a question of "team composition" and overall team building philosophy. It's as much about the "opportunity cost" of an $11M winger, as it is about the "value" of Marner specifically.

It would be a "questionable trade" straight up, as in an "elite offensive talent" for "3 Top-6 supporting pieces". Quality for Quantity type thing...as a straight trade. In a vacuum. But the broader scenario puts a different scope on things, with respect to Toronto already having 3 other "top offensive talents" on substantial salaries. Which starts to hit more at the underlying question of, "how top-heavy can you afford to make your team?"

The reality of the salary cap is...you pretty much have to identify your few "elite" core pieces, and beyond that, it's diminishing returns on megabucks "elite" players. It's money that can be better used to support your few identified "elite" key players with top quality depth. Which gives you more flexibility and diversification.


The whole question of whether Marner is a bit of a playoff pushover or not, just muddies the waters further.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Spare parts FTW

 

[Atomos2]

Obvious choice in this one.