Miscellaneous NHL Discussion: Pre-Season Edition
- Thread starter Hollywood Cannon
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Striiker
Earthquake Survivor
Yeah, he sure as **** was not "supposed to be a top pair guy".
That makes it sound like that was what most people expected. As if it was a safe bet.
We hoped he would eventually be one.
We believed he had the raw potential to possibly become one.
But I don't remember seeing anyone dumb enough to expect him to become one.
That makes it sound like that was what most people expected. As if it was a safe bet.
We hoped he would eventually be one.
We believed he had the raw potential to possibly become one.
But I don't remember seeing anyone dumb enough to expect him to become one.
Go read the draft thread. That's where I'm getting my info from. The consensus was 2-3 years and he's got top pair potential. It certainly was not 3-4 years and second pair. But whatever, we were all psyched about a 3-4 year middle pair defender. I remember now.
Striiker
Earthquake Survivor
So you don't see the difference between
"supposed to be a top pairing guy"
and
"has top pair potential"
...?
The first means it's expected, the second means it's possible.
Also, if you're getting your information from the draft thread that means you're getting it from fans... and I would assume the vast majority of them didn't watch him play more then 5 games total before he was drafted. Yup, that seems like a great source to make "2-3 years" the unbreakable timeline from. So, since you seem to get your information from fans, why not trust the fans telling you there's no cause for worry right now, the ones who have actually watched him play a lot? Or were they more credible back then when they hadn't seen the last 3 years of his development?
"supposed to be a top pairing guy"
and
"has top pair potential"
...?
The first means it's expected, the second means it's possible.
Also, if you're getting your information from the draft thread that means you're getting it from fans... and I would assume the vast majority of them didn't watch him play more then 5 games total before he was drafted. Yup, that seems like a great source to make "2-3 years" the unbreakable timeline from. So, since you seem to get your information from fans, why not trust the fans telling you there's no cause for worry right now, the ones who have actually watched him play a lot? Or were they more credible back then when they hadn't seen the last 3 years of his development?
Fire Tortorella
Formerly Flyersfan1406
- Sep 28, 2014
- 76,760
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Morin STILL has top-pair potential.
Thats the amusing part.
Even if he doesnt play top 2 minutes because he is behind better players, does not diminish him as a player at all.
JojoTheWhale
CORN BOY
- May 22, 2008
- 33,783
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http://hfboards.mandatory.com/search.php?searchid=41614439
I went through the first 3 pages. It's mostly people either not liking the pick because they didn't see offensive upside, lamenting missing out on Nurse and Nichushkin, or hoping they give him the time he needs to develop after the Sbisa fiasco.
I didn't see one person or a quote of a person screaming top pair.
Figured this was the topic to post in, if not sorry. But if any of you haven't seen Neuvirth's new mask, check it out. That should have been the 50th anniversary logo
FLYguy3911
Sanheim Lover
- Oct 19, 2006
- 53,177
- 86,586
I think we should consider Morin was drafted under Holmgren and had Holmgren still been calling the shots when he had that great camp as a 19 year old, there's a pretty good chance he would have played in the NHL as a teenager- rightly or wrongly. Hextall obviously has a much different philosophy and even he admitted Morin put himself 'as close as possible' two years ago.
It also didn't help Morin's case for an NHL spot when the team opened last year with 8 defenseman on one-way contracts. The only guy that earned a promotion at all was Gostisbehere and that was mostly due to a long-term injury to Streit (Morin obviously isn't assuming his role). They dressed a total of 9 defensemen all year. That is a pretty low number considering they traded one of those guys midseason and MDZ had a season ending injury. Nick Schultz, the guy Morin is/was most likely to replace played in 81/82 regular season games.
If Morin doesn't play a game in the NHL this year, I will be concerned. Until then, I expect Morin to continue to improve as he has since the day he was drafted.
It also didn't help Morin's case for an NHL spot when the team opened last year with 8 defenseman on one-way contracts. The only guy that earned a promotion at all was Gostisbehere and that was mostly due to a long-term injury to Streit (Morin obviously isn't assuming his role). They dressed a total of 9 defensemen all year. That is a pretty low number considering they traded one of those guys midseason and MDZ had a season ending injury. Nick Schultz, the guy Morin is/was most likely to replace played in 81/82 regular season games.
If Morin doesn't play a game in the NHL this year, I will be concerned. Until then, I expect Morin to continue to improve as he has since the day he was drafted.
Curufinwe
Registered User
- Feb 28, 2013
- 55,790
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DFF spends pages making arguments that have no basis in fact. He doesn't watch the games, and doesn't pay attention to what anyone else is saying except if they happen to agree with him. 9 months ago it was the idea that no one was talking positively about Morin's progress. That was bull ****. Now it's that we all expected Morin to be on the top pair in 2-3 years. Which is more bull ****.
If you go read the Gudas thread you will see the same pattern of incoherent ranting.
So if I am wrong, ad the consensus was not 2-3 years and not top pair defender...we drafted a 3-4 year project second pair guy at 11 overall and we were all really excited about that?
Curufinwe
Registered User
- Feb 28, 2013
- 55,790
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Yes, it's very disingenuous to act like Morin not playing in the NHL as a 20 year old should have been a bad surprise given Hextall's well documented caution with D prospects. He's said publicly that Ghost was a guaranteed call up, even when Streit got hurt.
I think Darnell Nurse could have really used a full year in the AHL but the Oilers were the Oilers.
flyersfan018
Registered User
A couple things as to the bolded...first nine months ago I said I assumed Morin wasn't having a particularly good or bad season due to the fact that I hadn't heard a lot about him, which turns out was true. He was having, and did have a season that was nothing special. Second, perhaps there was a miscommunication, I'm not saying that people thought he'd be a top pair guy in 2-3 year, only that he was a future top pair guy who would be in the NHL in 2-3 years.
JojoTheWhale
CORN BOY
- May 22, 2008
- 33,783
- 105,373
I don't see people being overly excited about the pick. I see mostly disappointment it wasn't Nurse or Nichushkin. The positive people just wanted someone mean or were willing to bet on Morin's physical abilities in the long term.
And yes, if you get a 2nd pairing guy at 11, you should be happy. Here are the last 25 #11 overalls:
Logan Brown
Lawson Crouse
Kevin Fiala
Sam Morin
Filip Forsberg
Duncan Siemens
Jack Campbell
Ryan Ellis
Kyle Beach
Brandon Sutter
Jonathan Bernier
Anze Kopitar
Lauri Tukonen
Jeff Carter
Keith Ballard
Fredrik Sjostrom
Pavel Vorobiev
Oleg Sprykin
Jeff Heerema
Jason Ward
Dan Focht
Jarome Iginla
Jeff Friesen
Brendan Witt
David Cooper
Iginla, Kopitar, Carter, and Forsberg are home runs. Then you have some productive middle of the lineup guys like Friesen and Ellis, and a slew of busts.
These are some quotes from literally just clicking on random pages...
I could probably find more if you'd like, or you can go to the thread and look through yourself for some more.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1457901
But again, it was never 2-3 years and we don't think he's going to be top pair. He was a 3-4 year project second pair defender and we all knew it and he is doing exactly what we thought. That's what you shoot for at #11 and that's what we got.
Curufinwe
Registered User
- Feb 28, 2013
- 55,790
- 42,864
If you actually read that thread the thing that stands out most is the guy saying we should have traded the pick and more for Schneider, or traded it plus Couturier for Seth Jones because we had no defensive prospects with offensive upside like Jones.
Turns out we had an even better offensive Dman than him.
Turns out we had an even better offensive Dman than him.
Newest sens fan
My uncle owns Nintendo 64
Comes close to Mason's zombie cage.
(posting this at the perfect time in this beautiful thread)
Striiker
Earthquake Survivor
How do you still not get this...?
Neither of those two descriptions fit him at all, obviously, and hopefully you realize that but are just being stubborn.
If you must have a way to describe him then this is most accurate: a defensemen with top pairing potential but also a relatively high floor, fairly safe bet to at least become a bottom pair defensemen due to physical gifts. His ultimate potential is likely tied to how much offense he develops. A long term project (you don't need a set of years...) that requires patience if you want to see the payoff down the line. Not out of the realm of possibility to become an elite top pairing defensemen or a bottom pairing defensemen, or anything in between. It will all depend on how he develops.
He's in between those two descriptions you attempted (poorly).
Why were/are people excited about him? Because he has a ton of potential. Guys who are a lock for a top pair role (don't exist, but lets pretend they do) aren't the only players you can be excited about.
This quote right here really says it all about you. You say something absurd, get corrected, get defensive and pout, and then use strawmen when you realize you were wrong.
And, to top it all off, you make such a fuss and argue so much, but then even admit that you don't personally watch these players and you're relying on other people for information. But then when you get that information you choose to ignore it and argue with the people who do watch them. It makes so little sense that it's almost impressive.
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You're acting like this is new that people want to put a label on a first round pick and a timeline for his arrival. That's typically the first question everyone asks when a guy is drafted and pretty much the only thing discussed heading up to the draft. When will PLAYER X be an NHL regular? What is his potential? I have never in my entire however many years on this board seen a prospect, especially a first rounder, described in such a way, which is essentially you saying he could be anything and it might take any amount of time for him to reach that point. It almost sounds like you are saying that so no matter what you won't be wrong. If he is a top pair guy, you were right. If he is a middle guy, you were right. If he was a bottom guy you were right. If it takes three years, boom, right again! Four years...still right! You can't lose!
JojoTheWhale
CORN BOY
- May 22, 2008
- 33,783
- 105,373
Sure, I'm bored.
It was never reasonable to EXPECT a top pair defenseman at 11. Of course you hope.
These are some quotes from literally just clicking on random pages...
Someone asking if he's probably 2-3 years away is a clearly defined expectation from a guy who is clearly well-versed on the subject now? He/she asked a question!
He would be thrilled to have him in the NHL next year if he has a tremendous Jr season. That means he expected him to be? You're not a dumb guy. You know this isn't the same thing.
This person is a lunatic. That was never remotely reasonable. That's not even a fair expectation for Provorov. But yes, you found one.
I have no idea what you're even trying to illustrate here. If the offense comes around, that would be great. What does this prove? If anything, the D grade shows he thought it was unlikely!
Larry (no offense meant) thinks everyone is wonderful. Even he only HOPED for top pair.
I could probably find more if you'd like, or you can go to the thread and look through yourself for some more.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1457901
But again, it was never 2-3 years and we don't think he's going to be top pair. He was a 3-4 year project second pair defender and we all knew it and he is doing exactly what we thought. That's what you shoot for at #11 and that's what we got.
It was never reasonable to EXPECT a top pair defenseman at 11. Of course you hope.
Striiker
Earthquake Survivor
Of course making guesses at a players potential, development path, and realistic expectations isn't new. I didn't say it was. What I said is that taking those fan-made guesses and using it as if its anything more than a guess is ridiculous. Going a year past that guess doesn't mean he's worse than we thought, just like making it to the NHL a year before doesn't mean he's better.
Morin is unique because his range of possibilities is so wide.
He could be top pairing, he could be second pairing, he could be third pairing... all of them are possible because of the rare type of player he is. And not giving a timeframe is just acknowledging that the rare type of player that he is is too hard to predict because many times they are a bit more raw at the time of the draft, which means its harder to make guesses about how long they'll need.
Ok so we have one person saying his potential could be anything at any time. And another saying (I'm not sure, so JoJo correct me if I'm wrong) that you thought from the beginning that we drafted a 3-4 year project second pair defender. Anyone else want to chime in?
Tripod
I hate this team
Who ****ing cares if Morin had a special season or not. Even if they do, you downplay it and say that it doesn't matter until they get to the NHL.
Morin ended up playing on the top pairing in the AHL as a rookie. He had a good season. He did not have a "special" season.
As others and myself have said many a time, this 2-3 years you randomly spout about is wrong. EVERYONE viewed him as a prospect who would take longer to develop. He was also viewed as someone who had very big upside, but had a long way to go to get there. As opposed to smaller, more polished Dmen who were further along in their development. Just like how Provy is more polished than Sanheim to use as an example.
Most knowledgable people felt Morin would need 3 years of development AT MINIMUM....2 in Jr, 1 AHL.
And can we look at the other Dmen drafted in 2013:
Jones and Risto are obvious
Nurse played NHL games, but go look at Oilers talk, most feel he was not ready and could start in AHL this year
Morrisey...played 57 AHL games last year
Pulock...played 51 AHL games last year
Zadorov...played in the NHL but was not ready...played 52 AHL games last year
Mueller...played 50 AHL games last year
Theodore...played 50 AHL games last year
So all this gloom and doom over Morin is dumb. All these other Dmen are taking just as long to be a regular NHLer as Morin is....DESPITE him bring a long term project.
Anyone else you want to go on about? Because it seems like everyone you do this with,,proves you wrong: Gudas, Myers, Morin....keep it coming DFF.
Note: funny how you say people were saying Morin WOULD BE a top pairing guy. I am quite sure it was COULD BE. There is a MASSIVE difference.
I don't get the fuzz around the projection of Morin.
It was known all along from the moment when the pick was made, that Morin would be a project. He would be better of developing in the junior leagues (check), after that the next thing in line would be couple of years in the minors (check 1/2, this is his 2nd year in AHL).
I was super excited that the Flyers drafted this kind of a prospect in to their system. You have to remember, that before Morin, our depth at defence prospectsd were guys named Gustaffson (non drafted), Marshall, and Bourdon.
Morin intrigued the scouts and the fans for what he brings. If you are a guy who is built like a brick house, (measured 6,5 feet in his draft year if I remember correctly), is a skilled skater for his size, gritty, hockey IQ is adapt, and is a hard worker. These guys don't grow on trees. This isn't a Hugh Jessiman or Thomas Hickey type of a pick.
The guy has not even played a regular season game yet, and people are going hyperbole. Yet we all know, that Hexy is SUPER conservative with the prospects and probably wouldn't have wanted to bring Ghost up in the first place last year. How come some presume, that Morin should be playing already at the big leagues and making contributions as a 20 year old, when we know all the things mentioned above?
And about the projected role. I think he was projected to be, as people have said, a guy who has potential to be a top 2 guy. With the 11th pick you are LUCKY to have guy to hit that projection, it's not like every year the first 15 picks are home runs. And this is not even my point, because it really is too early to tell if Morin is a hit or bust. He is a Flyers-type of a player, with the speed and agility, hockey IQ and grittyness that is needed in todays game.
IMO some people are too jumpy with the picks. The "prospect turn around" is not a process that takes a couple of years. Maybe people have forgotten, that we were in a really, i mean in REALLY bad place with our prospect situation even in 2013.
This was my rant (slighty intoxicated after a wedding party i attended to), you can say that I'm in the Morin bandwagon.
It was known all along from the moment when the pick was made, that Morin would be a project. He would be better of developing in the junior leagues (check), after that the next thing in line would be couple of years in the minors (check 1/2, this is his 2nd year in AHL).
I was super excited that the Flyers drafted this kind of a prospect in to their system. You have to remember, that before Morin, our depth at defence prospectsd were guys named Gustaffson (non drafted), Marshall, and Bourdon.
Morin intrigued the scouts and the fans for what he brings. If you are a guy who is built like a brick house, (measured 6,5 feet in his draft year if I remember correctly), is a skilled skater for his size, gritty, hockey IQ is adapt, and is a hard worker. These guys don't grow on trees. This isn't a Hugh Jessiman or Thomas Hickey type of a pick.
The guy has not even played a regular season game yet, and people are going hyperbole. Yet we all know, that Hexy is SUPER conservative with the prospects and probably wouldn't have wanted to bring Ghost up in the first place last year. How come some presume, that Morin should be playing already at the big leagues and making contributions as a 20 year old, when we know all the things mentioned above?
And about the projected role. I think he was projected to be, as people have said, a guy who has potential to be a top 2 guy. With the 11th pick you are LUCKY to have guy to hit that projection, it's not like every year the first 15 picks are home runs. And this is not even my point, because it really is too early to tell if Morin is a hit or bust. He is a Flyers-type of a player, with the speed and agility, hockey IQ and grittyness that is needed in todays game.
IMO some people are too jumpy with the picks. The "prospect turn around" is not a process that takes a couple of years. Maybe people have forgotten, that we were in a really, i mean in REALLY bad place with our prospect situation even in 2013.
This was my rant (slighty intoxicated after a wedding party i attended to), you can say that I'm in the Morin bandwagon.
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