Minor Hockey and out of touch expectations

[Porter Stoutheart]

But hockey itself is so different than in the 1980s.

I don't think 80s hockey was quite like 70s-era 'smoking cigarettes during intermission' NHL, but there was not the same skill level, and certainly not the same level of physical fitness. Wayne Gretzky or Gordie Howe wouldn't be able to even make the NHL if they were young players today.

Hell it's true outside of hockey as well. College or university admission is far, far more competitive and difficult than it was in the 1980s.

So I really don't think it's fair to complain that hockey parents aren't treating their kids the same as the 1980s when the world is so different.

For what it's worth, I'm not complaining about parents in any of this. There are many hockey parents making crazy decisions and doing crazy things with their kids. But acknowledging that doesn't mean it's a complaint. To me, it's just natural. And not in any way constrained to the hockey world only. I don't think it's wrong to pursue a Dream. And I understand it's very easy to mistake your Dream for theirs. I think people get a little unnecessarily overwrought about that stuff, so it is always assumed to have a negative connotation anytime anybody talks about it, maybe. But I don't think it should. In the vast vast majority of cases anyway.

 

[swoopster]

But hockey itself is so different than in the 1980s.

I don't think 80s hockey was quite like 70s-era 'smoking cigarettes during intermission' NHL, but there was not the same skill level, and certainly not the same level of physical fitness. Wayne Gretzky or Gordie Howe wouldn't be able to even make the NHL if they were young players today...

Sorry, on that I call nonsense!

 

[Yukon Joe]

Sorry, on that I call nonsense!

I will stand by that.

If you teleported an 18 year old Wayne Gretzky or Gordie Howe through time to 2022 they would not be good enough to play in the NHL. They would not have the physical strength or speed to play in the modern game. We just know so much more about strength building, nutrition etc - and we put so much more emphasis on the same.

Way back in the day it was routine for players to use training camp in order to get into shape from a summer taking it easy. Players would smoke during intermission, or you'd be drinking on game days. It was just a whole different world.

Now that being said - if you teleported a 5 year old Wayne Gretzky or Gordie Howe through time to 2009, then had them grow up doing modern training and exercise I have no doubt they'd both still excel.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I will stand by that.

If you teleported an 18 year old Wayne Gretzky or Gordie Howe through time to 2022 they would not be good enough to play in the NHL. They would not have the physical strength or speed to play in the modern game. We just know so much more about strength building, nutrition etc - and we put so much more emphasis on the same.

Way back in the day it was routine for players to use training camp in order to get into shape from a summer taking it easy. Players would smoke during intermission, or you'd be drinking on game days. It was just a whole different world.

Now that being said - if you teleported a 5 year old Wayne Gretzky or Gordie Howe through time to 2009, then had them grow up doing modern training and exercise I have no doubt they'd both still excel.

I probably went with the same kind of "hot take" once or twice a long time ago. Until my own kid went through some of that stuff. And there were kids who were training like maniacs and were just incredible fitness beasts, and some who were skinny punks eating hotdogs (or doing worse things), and once the puck dropped some of the latter would still dominate the game. So I had to recalibrate on that one. Certainly the training focus in modern hockey has helped blur some lines. But I feel like it's more of a differentiator amongst kids who are already slotted into a skill/IQ/natural-ability tier. Beast Gretzky would be better than Skinny Punk Gretzky. But even Skinny Punk Gretzky is going to be better than everybody else. And where it makes the most impact of all is at the bottom end. Because now Beastly 4th Line Scrub is going to be better than the non-beastly version, and there are a heckuvalot more 4th line scrubs than Gretzkys. So the value in becoming beastly is definitely a big differentiator amongst that larger population of less gifted players.

But mind you, yet again, The Industry will tell you that the training is the key. Because hey, if you buy this supplement or pay for this gym membership or personal trainer, or skating instructor, etc, etc. Then once again, anybody can reach the top of the pyramid!

 

[Yukon Joe]

But mind you, yet again, The Industry will tell you that the training is the key. Because hey, if you buy this supplement or pay for this gym membership or personal trainer, or skating instructor, etc, etc. Then once again, anybody can reach the top of the pyramid!

So my take is certainly NOT that training beats out sheer skill. Absolutely not. I know this kid - his parents are wealthy, and they're convinced their kid is the next Connor McDavid (they literally said this!). They put him in a ton of extra training, spend a ton of money on him. And the kid, God bless him, works hard at it. But no matter how hard he works, or how much his parents spend, he's not going to be the next Gretzky.

But my take is that you need both skill and training.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

So my take is certainly NOT that training beats out sheer skill. Absolutely not. I know this kid - his parents are wealthy, and they're convinced their kid is the next Connor McDavid (they literally said this!). They put him in a ton of extra training, spend a ton of money on him. And the kid, God bless him, works hard at it. But no matter how hard he works, or how much his parents spend, he's not going to be the next Gretzky.

But my take is that you need both skill and training.

I guess the other old man shouting at clouds take I would offer is that the modern Industry "training" may not automatically be that much better than what kids used to do either. Ok, they go on the ice with a skills coach for an hour, and then hit the gym with a personal trainer for an hour, and have a diet plan and all that. And then spend 6 hrs playing video games or watching YouTube videos or whatever. So um, yeah, they got some nice advanced modern training in there. But the old school version when we were kids is that we spent those same 8 hours doing something outside. Biking around, just playing shinny on the pond or road hockey or something else entirely, working on the farm, whatever it was, I wouldn't be so sure it doesn't add up to just as much "training" as what some folks are paying thousands of dollars for. So Gordie Howe not having the strength to play in the modern game... uh...

 

[LookintheMirror]

I guess the other old man shouting at clouds take I would offer is that the modern Industry "training" may not automatically be that much better than what kids used to do either. Ok, they go on the ice with a skills coach for an hour, and then hit the gym with a personal trainer for an hour, and have a diet plan and all that. And then spend 6 hrs playing video games or watching YouTube videos or whatever. So um, yeah, they got some nice advanced modern training in there. But the old school version when we were kids is that we spent those same 8 hours doing something outside. Biking around, just playing shinny on the pond or road hockey or something else entirely, working on the farm, whatever it was, I wouldn't be so sure it doesn't add up to just as much "training" as what some folks are paying thousands of dollars for. So Gordie Howe not having the strength to play in the modern game... uh...

I'd agree old school "training" was much more healthy for kids, physically and mentally. All the progress made in society can be seen as both a blessing and a curse.

It's impossible to compare, but I'd bet that Orr, Gretzky, et al would still be dominate the game if they had the same degree and intensity of modern training that McDavid, Matthews, et al have had because they share the common denominator of being born with tremendous natural talent.

 

[LookintheMirror]

I will stand by that.

If you teleported an 18 year old Wayne Gretzky or Gordie Howe through time to 2022 they would not be good enough to play in the NHL. They would not have the physical strength or speed to play in the modern game. We just know so much more about strength building, nutrition etc - and we put so much more emphasis on the same.

Way back in the day it was routine for players to use training camp in order to get into shape from a summer taking it easy. Players would smoke during intermission, or you'd be drinking on game days. It was just a whole different world.

Now that being said - if you teleported a 5 year old Wayne Gretzky or Gordie Howe through time to 2009, then had them grow up doing modern training and exercise I have no doubt they'd both still excel.

Missed this, but agree completely... If they grew up in the same time period, their natural talent would be maximized to the same extent and they'd dominate because it. But, clearly, the couldn't dominate playing exactly how they did back then... I'm sure they'd be the first to admit that.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I guess the other old man shouting at clouds take I would offer is that the modern Industry "training" may not automatically be that much better than what kids used to do either. Ok, they go on the ice with a skills coach for an hour, and then hit the gym with a personal trainer for an hour, and have a diet plan and all that. And then spend 6 hrs playing video games or watching YouTube videos or whatever. So um, yeah, they got some nice advanced modern training in there. But the old school version when we were kids is that we spent those same 8 hours doing something outside. Biking around, just playing shinny on the pond or road hockey or something else entirely, working on the farm, whatever it was, I wouldn't be so sure it doesn't add up to just as much "training" as what some folks are paying thousands of dollars for. So Gordie Howe not having the strength to play in the modern game... uh...

OK old man. The thing is if your goal is the NHL (ours isn't) then look at what all the top prospects are doing. They're all coming up through "modern training", most are going to uber-expensive hockey academies, and have dedicated themselves to hockey from a fairly young age.

I can't remember the last player who came from a "farm-kid who played hockey with his buddies" kind of background.

Missed this, but agree completely... If they grew up in the same time period, their natural talent would be maximized to the same extent and they'd dominate because it. But, clearly, the couldn't dominate playing exactly how they did back then... I'm sure they'd be the first to admit that.

Howe is no longer with us, but I'm pretty sure I've heard Gretzky say almost exactly that (of course that's also just the kind of aw-shucks personality he has).

 

[swoopster]

We are running off the track a bit, but swinging back around to the main point of the thread... the creation of an Industry. As I have pointed out, those named in my earlier post of MA, MINN et all players who made it to the NHL in the 80s trained, but again, I don't believe they shelled out serious money. Hell, my off-season consisted of lifting weights and running up the stairs at Harvard stadium. Those players who played in the Original Six trained also... bales of hay vs weights. Porter makes a strong point... we can send our prospective youth off to speciali$$ed camps and then have them do nill the rest of the day. Yes, times have changed and I won't debate that.

Let's take Yukon,s statement that the past not being able to compete with the present. A moot point. Let's put Connor McDavid in the 50's and 60's gear. Gone is the streamlined equipment, back to heavy skates, equipment, etc. Give him a wooden stick. Have him ride trains throughout the Original Six, yes a different world.
It is senseless to debate the past and the present, who coulda, woulda, that's what opinions are all about.

This thread began with what the bleep is wrong with today's youth/ junior hockey and the quest for the Holy Grail. We have all witnessed some aspects of it.

In the end, there is no solution but a much-needed dose of both reality and common sense.

 

[Yukon Joe]

This thread began with what the bleep is wrong with today's youth hockey and the quest for the Holy Grail. We have all witnessed some aspects of it.

In the end, there is no solution but a much-needed dose of both reality and common sense.

We all agree hockey has changed dramatically over history. It certainly has changed a lot in the last 50-60 years, but seems to me if you went back even further the changes would be even more dramatic. 100 years ago there was no organized youth hockey to speak of - it was all just kids on frozen ponds.

Then somewhere along the line organized youth hockey started up.

You only really started getting lots of indoor rinks being built by the 60s-70s - before that kids were limited to playing on outdoor rinks for just a few months of the year.

Also all during this time you didn't play pro hockey for the money. Players didn't make any money. You played pro because you loved the game.

But sow now you get to the 1980s, into the 1990s. More ice rinks allow for more, and year-round, ice time. Now player salaries start shooting up. It now starts to make a certain amount of sense to start specializing in hockey, to start "investing" in your kids career. It's probably not a very good investment compared to all the other things you could be doing, but it's rational.

We can always discuss how minor hockey should change and evolve (and let me tell you in just the 7 years I've been involved in minor hockey they've made so many changes). But what isn't going to ever happen is things going back to like it was when all us oldsters were kids.

 

[swoopster]

We all agree hockey has changed dramatically over history. It certainly has changed a lot in the last 50-60 years, but seems to me if you went back even further the changes would be even more dramatic. 100 years ago there was no organized youth hockey to speak of - it was all just kids on frozen ponds.

Then somewhere along the line organized youth hockey started up.

You only really started getting lots of indoor rinks being built by the 60s-70s - before that kids were limited to playing on outdoor rinks for just a few months of the year.

Also all during this time you didn't play pro hockey for the money. Players didn't make any money. You played pro because you loved the game.

But sow now you get to the 1980s, into the 1990s. More ice rinks allow for more, and year-round, ice time. Now player salaries start shooting up. It now starts to make a certain amount of sense to start specializing in hockey, to start "investing" in your kids career. It's probably not a very good investment compared to all the other things you could be doing, but it's rational.

We can always discuss how minor hockey should change and evolve (and let me tell you in just the 7 years I've been involved in minor hockey they've made so many changes). But what isn't going to ever happen is things going back to like it was when all us oldsters were kids.

AMEN! It has been a pleasure chatting with you guys, in what if feel, was a great thread!

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

We are running off the track a bit, but swinging back around to the main point of the thread... the creation of an Industry. As I have pointed out, those named in my earlier post of MA, MINN et all players who made it to the NHL in the 80s trained, but again, I don't believe they shelled out serious money. Hell, my off-season consisted of lifting weights and running up the stairs at Harvard stadium. Those players who played in the Original Six trained also... bales of hay vs weights. Porter makes a strong point... we can send our prospective youth off to speciali$$ed camps and then have them do nill the rest of the day. Yes, times have changed and I won't debate that.

Let's take Yukon,s statement that the past not being able to compete with the present. A moot point. Let's put Connor McDavid in the 50's and 60's gear. Gone is the streamlined equipment, back to heavy skates, equipment, etc. Give him a wooden stick. Have him ride trains throughout the Original Six, yes a different world.

This thread began with what the bleep is wrong with today's youth hockey and the quest for the Holy Grail. We have all witnessed some aspects of it.

In the end, there is no solution but a much-needed dose of both reality and common sense.

Exactly, it's totally moot to imagine what players of different eras would do if "magically transported" forward or back in time. The point is to just look at how things have changed and wonder if that helps to illustrate any problems with today's youth hockey.

I don't really think it's a "problem" per se if parents are fooled by The Industry and willing to spend lots and lots of money chasing a Dream for their kids. The Industry is perhaps being a little dishonest, but hey, we live in a Capitalist society, we eat at McDonald's and drink Coca-Cola... and lots worse too. Those Big Macs on TV don't look like what I get at the drive-through window. We aren't that smart or careful with our money, our lives, or our kids. Aside from maybe a few really sleazy operations out there, most of The Industry is selling a Product mostly-as-advertised to a Market that wants it, and if folks are buying it, well, that's on us.

So The Industry is mostly what's different. But is it really a problem? If it didn't exist, I guess instead of me paying $140 for a private today, I would have just worked an extra hour at the office and my kid would have played an extra hour of NHL23 online with his buddies? I mean, we're not exactly in a position where we're necessarily making the worst choice by buying what The Industry is selling us. That's why I say I'm just an old man shouting at clouds here. To me, the Old Ways were indisputably superior. Bet my kids wouldn't agree. And it's not like I'm going out of my way to try to show them something different. So is there really any fault or blame?

In the end, I think it's ok to just recognize the change in the landscape, like it or dislike it as the case may be, but not feel like it requires any special action, that anything really needs to be done.... or even can be done. It's a mess, maybe, but it's the one that fits our current society, it evolved the way it did because it fits our current society, and it's just going to keep on evolving similarly, whether we like it or not.

 

[LookintheMirror]

OK old man. The thing is if your goal is the NHL (ours isn't) then look at what all the top prospects are doing. They're all coming up through "modern training", most are going to uber-expensive hockey academies, and have dedicated themselves to hockey from a fairly young age.

I can't remember the last player who came from a "farm-kid who played hockey with his buddies" kind of background.

Howe is no longer with us, but I'm pretty sure I've heard Gretzky say almost exactly that (of course that's also just the kind of aw-shucks personality he has).

Sorry, first to admit it IF he were alive. lol I know he's not. Gretzky has definitely applauded the speed and skill of today's players and clearly knows how much the game has changed.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I don't really think it's a "problem" per se if parents are fooled by The Industry and willing to spend lots and lots of money chasing a Dream for their kids. The Industry is perhaps being a little dishonest, but hey, we live in a Capitalist society, we eat at McDonald's and drink Coca-Cola... and lots worse too. Those Big Macs on TV don't look like what I get at the drive-through window. We aren't that smart or careful with our money, our lives, or our kids. Aside from maybe a few really sleazy operations out there, most of The Industry is selling a Product mostly-as-advertised to a Market that wants it, and if folks are buying it, well, that's on us.

So my kid has done a bunch of different hockey camps and programs (what you call The Industry), and I've gotten reviews about dozens more from other parents.

They all differ in what they provide, and how much they cost. There are some that advertise widely and are a "big name". There are some that offer better instructor-to-student ratios. Some are run by former NHLers, while some get by on just lower costs and not promising too much.

I think some are better value for your dollar than others, but none of them have been scams. You get what you paid for, None of them have ever made promises to us that they didn't follow through on. There are camps I'd gladly do again, and some we likely won't.

Maybe it's worth it, maybe it's not - but I've never felt scammed or deceived before.

 

[tarheelhockey]

If you teleported an 18 year old Wayne Gretzky or Gordie Howe through time to 2022 they would not be good enough to play in the NHL. They would not have the physical strength or speed to play in the modern game. We just know so much more about strength building, nutrition etc - and we put so much more emphasis on the same.

FWIW, Gordie Howe was an absolute physical freak. As a 14 year old he took a construction job with his father. Being a green teenager, Gordie got stuck with the worst jobs — one of which was to carry bags of cement from one side of the site to another. Full grown men would stop working to watch him casually carrying a 90lb bag in each hand. That isn’t some urban legend, he was just a gorilla physically. When his father told that story, he made a point to emphasize that it wasn’t just that Gordie could carry so much weight in each hand, but the fact that he could grip a fully-packed bag of cement hard enough not to drop it. Grown men on the site had a hard time holding one bag with both hands.

He was fully ambidextrous, enough to routinely switch stick hands mid-shift at the NHL level. He was a natural enough athlete that he played semi-pro baseball in the summer just for the exercise. His neck and shoulders were ropes of muscle, and his biceps were as thick as some men’s thighs. He had a bodybuilder’s physique before the era of weight training. Again this is not urban legend, look at a photo of him. He was the same height and slightly heavier than the average NHL player in 2022. Needless to say, his pain threshold was nearly nonexistent and he continued to perform at a star level even after major cranial surgery and the removal of virtually all the cartilage from his knees.

I have absolutely no doubt that he could have been a star in the NHL today. He was a better athlete than 95% of the guys who are out there now. “Teleported” Gordie might need to figure out how to get the most of modern skates and sticks, and he’d have to get used to a visor, but that’s not a very meaningful limitation. Fundamentally, he was a big, strong, tough, mean SOB who could skate and shoot and pass.

 

[swoopster]

So my kid has done a bunch of different hockey camps and programs (what you call The Industry), and I've gotten reviews about dozens more from other parents.

They all differ in what they provide, and how much they cost. There are some that advertise widely and are a "big name". There are some that offer better instructor-to-student ratios. Some are run by former NHLers, while some get by on just lower costs and not promising too much.

I think some are better value for your dollar than others, but none of them have been scams. You get what you paid for, None of them have ever made promises to us that they didn't follow through on. There are camps I'd gladly do again, and some we likely won't.

Maybe it's worth it, maybe it's not - but I've never felt scammed or deceived before.

Yukon, we are talking about two different things here.

As a high school player in the late 60's I went to a couple of 2 week camps also during the summer. I have never had a problem with them. They vary, but you pay for what you get.

My beef is the proliferation of US-based junior hockey leagues, most of which are pay-to-play,

Please go back and read my original post where I topic that.

 

[BadgerBruce]

FWIW, Gordie Howe was an absolute physical freak. As a 14 year old he took a construction job with his father. Being a green teenager, Gordie got stuck with the worst jobs — one of which was to carry bags of cement from one side of the site to another. Full grown men would stop working to watch him casually carrying a 90lb bag in each hand. That isn’t some urban legend, he was just a gorilla physically. When his father told that story, he made a point to emphasize that it wasn’t just that Gordie could carry so much weight in each hand, but the fact that he could grip a fully-packed bag of cement hard enough not to drop it. Grown men on the site had a hard time holding one bag with both hands.

He was fully ambidextrous, enough to routinely switch stick hands mid-shift at the NHL level. He was a natural enough athlete that he played semi-pro baseball in the summer just for the exercise. His neck and shoulders were ropes of muscle, and his biceps were as thick as some men’s thighs. He had a bodybuilder’s physique before the era of weight training. Again this is not urban legend, look at a photo of him. He was the same height and slightly heavier than the average NHL player in 2022. Needless to say, his pain threshold was nearly nonexistent and he continued to perform at a star level even after major cranial surgery and the removal of virtually all the cartilage from his knees.

I have absolutely no doubt that he could have been a star in the NHL today. He was a better athlete than 95% of the guys who are out there now. “Teleported” Gordie might need to figure out how to get the most of modern skates and sticks, and he’d have to get used to a visor, but that’s not a very meaningful limitation. Fundamentally, he was a big, strong, tough, mean SOB who could skate and shoot and pass.

Thanks for posting this. Couldn’t agree more.

One thing you don’t mention (not germane to your central point, so not a criticism) is that Howe (also Richard, Hull, Beliveau, etc.) came from a huge family (9 siblings). Inevitably, kids from such massive families experience less personal, hands-on control from their parents. Even getting to the rink (or ball diamond) to watch your kids play more than a few times per season would be a tall order when you’ve got 10 of them.

That’s the big change. Parents today have just 1-2 kids and are (micro) managers of even the smallest details.

Example: my dad (born in the very early 1930s) had 7 siblings. One of them went on to play professional hockey for 20+ years, 19 in the NHL. He’d be the first one to tell you that his parents (my grandparents) rarely saw him play when he was a kid. They didn’t even think about micromanaging his “youth hockey development” — how could they, with 7 other kids to worry about? He went to school extra early for team practice, came home after school long enough to raid the ice box, and then ran back to the school to join his buddies back at the rink for a few hours of pure play. Three brothers, including my dad, did pretty much the same thing.

Had there been some skills guru running pricey training sessions back then (30s and 40s), no chance the kids would be going. Special athlete diet? My grandmother would have laughed her ass off — you eat what I serve or starve. Dryland training regimen? Yeah, sure … it’s called track & field season at school. Everybody run, jump, and throw. Repeat as needed.

To my mind, the single biggest driver of the changes in youth hockey is smaller families. Dads used to have chips off the old block, and today they’ve (mostly) got a single chip they think is gold.

By the way, one of my uncles ended up being a goalie. Very high level amateur, probably could have played pro but didn’t want to. Ask him how he became a good goalie and he’ll tell you stories about his brothers ripping shots at his head and nuts for hours on end in the street or the driveway, working 2-on-0s or 2-on-1s, or just flat out running him over if he pissed them off. My uncle’s got some nasty scars on his face.

Wasn’t the most efficient form of training, but it sure sounded to my ears like a lot more fun. No hockey mom or hockey dad to please — just the imagined roar of the crowd to drive you. I’ve long suspected that a significant part of Canada’s so-called “goalie crisis” is smaller families that make it harder for a kid to find shooters.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Yukon, we are talking about two different things here.

As a high school player in the late 60's I went to a couple of 2 week camps also during the summer. I have never had a problem with them. They vary, but you pay for what you get.

My beef is the proliferation of US-based junior hockey leagues, most of which are pay-to-play,

Please go back and read my original post where I topic that.

The proliferation really does get a bit crazy. Practically any competitive-tier kid can land somewhere if they look long and hard enough, between USPHL and NA3HL levels and everything. And you pay to go to the combines, and every team has a little evaluation camp, and various "members of the industry" pair with so and so from this or that NCAA college and hold a little campus tour along with their little tournament/camp, and I have known kids who have literally paid to attend 10 of these in a single offseason. On top of whatever regular training/extras or spring teams they are paying for. Paying to play in USPHL or NA3HL or EHL or whatever at the Tier 3 level is pretty nuts. Although again, it's not to say you can't climb up out of there, because of course it's possible and happens and players move up or get div III or possibly even sometimes eventually div I opportunities. If it couldn't happen, then I guess it would be a harder sell, so they are quick to point out the alumni lists proving it is possible.

I don't think it's very different in the Jr A/B/C/outlaw level leagues proliferating in Canada either, I've heard stories of camps/pre-camps they charge hundreds of dollars and get hundreds of kids out to, even when they know darn well 90% of their team already.

Now, you can say hey, there's no deception there, nothing was promised, the parent who chose to pay for all those things does know that there are no guarantees and they're the ones freely choosing to go to those lengths and that these things are basically cash grabs. You even laugh amongst yourselves that it's just a cash grab. Yet the camps/tourneys do put whatever names they can in the marquee on the ad or invitation email (and you'll get hundreds of those emails forever after you first sign up for one), they'll emphasize that so and so from this junior or pro team or school is on the coaching staff, etc etc, it's certainly presented as a little more of an opportunity than it really is. Although at the same time, it's also true that a kid who really stands out might get noticed. And also it can be argued that there's enough "fun" for your $300 or $400 or whatever that you and your kid can say, hey, it was a fun tourney/camp/combine/whatever just to go and play/watch some hockey, even knowing nothing else would likely ever come of it.

So again, I'm not saying it's quite a "scam" as such. Although I have been scammed at least once by one of these that cancelled and refused to provide any refund or response. And another that provided only a partial refund, but could at least point to the fine print that stated such would be the case in the event of a cancellation. Still, I got exactly nothing for my $400 + $200 on those two. So those things are out there too, albeit a tiny tiny minority. And if you choose to pay around $10,000 for Tier 3 junior, or send your kids off with billet money for Tier 1 or 2, or heaven forbid pay even more some academy/prep school thing... well, it's nice to have that much money, I guess? How you spend it really shouldn't be anybody else's business. You could spend that $10,000 on a single trip to Disney World, and many thousands of people do stuff like that every year, who is complaining about that or calling them crazy?

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Thanks for posting this. Couldn’t agree more.

One thing you don’t mention (not germane to your central point, so not a criticism) is that Howe (also Richard, Hull, Beliveau, etc.) came from a huge family (9 siblings). Inevitably, kids from such massive families experience less personal, hands-on control from their parents. Even getting to the rink (or ball diamond) to watch your kids play more than a few times per season would be a tall order when you’ve got 10 of them.

That’s the big change. Parents today have just 1-2 kids and are (micro) managers of even the smallest details.

Example: my dad (born in the very early 1930s) had 7 siblings. One of them went on to play professional hockey for 20+ years, 19 in the NHL. He’d be the first one to tell you that his parents (my grandparents) rarely saw him play when he was a kid. They didn’t even think about micromanaging his “youth hockey development” — how could they, with 7 other kids to worry about? He went to school extra early for team practice, came home after school long enough to raid the ice box, and then ran back to the school to join his buddies back at the rink for a few hours of pure play. Three brothers, including my dad, did pretty much the same thing.

Had there been some skills guru running pricey training sessions back then (30s and 40s), no chance the kids would be going. Special athlete diet? My grandmother would have laughed her ass off — you eat what I serve or starve. Dryland training regimen? Yeah, sure … it’s called track & field season at school. Everybody run, jump, and throw. Repeat as needed.

To my mind, the single biggest driver of the changes in youth hockey is smaller families. Dads used to have chips off the old block, and today they’ve (mostly) got a single chip they think is gold.

By the way, one of my uncles ended up being a goalie. Very high level amateur, probably could have played pro but didn’t want to. Ask him how he became a good goalie and he’ll tell you stories about his brothers ripping shots at his head and nuts for hours on end in the street or the driveway, working 2-on-0s or 2-on-1s, or just flat out running him over if he pissed them off. My uncle’s got some nasty scars on his face.

Wasn’t the most efficient form of training, but it sure sounded to my ears like a lot more fun. No hockey mom or hockey dad to please — just the imagined roar of the crowd to drive you. I’ve long suspected that a significant part of Canada’s so-called “goalie crisis” is smaller families that make it harder for a kid to find shooters.

That's amazing I never really thought about the size of families thing before. I'm not sure if I can think of any hockey family we encountered along the way that had more than 3 kids? Maybe there were a few, but it for sure has been a lot of only-child and 2-kid families.

 

[tarheelhockey]

That's amazing I never really thought about the size of families thing before. I'm not sure if I can think of any hockey family we encountered along the way that had more than 3 kids? Maybe there were a few, but it for sure has been a lot of only-child and 2-kid families.

It’s a good point. Combine smaller families with spread-out suburban environments, and a typical kid’s cohort of siblings/friends to play with has dropped by orders of magnitude. That means the end of sandlot sports among other things. Suddenly people feel like they have to go the organized-sports route because the alternative is trying to somehow scrape together a game with 3 nearby friends.

Currently I live in a very typical American suburb (but by no means an especially spread out neighborhood… we at least have sidewalks and a couple of parks within walking distance). My 12 year old is the kind of kid who loves to be on a rink or field at all times. Aside from his older brother, he has maybe 2-3 other boys in the entire neighborhood who would normally be available for a pickup game. There are no “sandlot” type athletic spaces, because their landscape is all reserved for fenced/private property. Their baseball fields are actual municipal fields at the park; basketball is an outdoor court at a nearby church; football or soccer means jumping the fence at a private school; hockey is in the street. So if he feels like playing basketball, that mostly means shooting around by himself. Football and baseball and hockey are almost always non-starters.

So, guess what I hear on an almost daily basis? “Dad, sign me up for a football league” “Dad, they’re having basketball tryouts at school next week” “Dad, I found this website for a travel hockey team”

And so, his idea of sports is that it is by nature a big organized activity with your name on a jersey and a crowd of parents yelling in the stands. He’s motivated enough to understand and value the idea of practicing on his own, but the idea of going out and playing non-organized sports among his friends is very nearly non-existent, like something from an idealized TV show.

 

[Yukon Joe]

That's amazing I never really thought about the size of families thing before. I'm not sure if I can think of any hockey family we encountered along the way that had more than 3 kids? Maybe there were a few, but it for sure has been a lot of only-child and 2-kid families.

So yet another kid that was teammates with my oldest son... I believe he's the second oldest of now 7 kids. Absolutely I don't know anyone else who plays hockey with that many siblings. We used to give the kid a whole bunch of rides to hockey just because we knew how stretched the parents were and we lived close by.

But even then - I think the parents seem quite invested in their sons "hockey career" (my words not theirs), perhaps because he's the oldest boy, and I can't see his younger siblings getting the same opportunities to play that this kid has had.

But noting that family sizes were much smaller 60-70 years ago is true, but kind of old news. Unless you're proposing to ban contraceptives it seems like smaller families have been the norm since the mid-60s to 70s.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

It’s a good point. Combine smaller families with spread-out suburban environments, and a typical kid’s cohort of siblings/friends to play with has dropped by orders of magnitude. That means the end of sandlot sports among other things. Suddenly people feel like they have to go the organized-sports route because the alternative is trying to somehow scrape together a game with 3 nearby friends.

And I still blame video games too. (Shouts at passing cloud!) I grew up in a rural setting and there was no other kid within 5 miles of me except my brother. We'd play on the road (CAR!), or a field, in the snow, whatever, even if it was just two of us, all day, any day, any weather.

Today, my kids would literally get killed by some idiot if they tried to play on our road, if it was even legal to do so (it hasn't come up, so I don't even know!). They won't play in our driveway because it's not paved, although plenty big enough for a game, I'd have been all over it as a kid, chewing a little gravel would be a small price to pay. But instead, organized sports is the only real thing they know, and if they can't play "for real", then there's a basement full of Xbox that they could cheerfully spend all day on instead.

 

[swoopster]

Here are the leagues in US Junior Hockey. You had better read the fine print for it is deceiving.

USHL- free, billet costs Tier 1
NAHL- free, billet cost Tier 2
NCDC pay to play- not sanctioned by Hockey USA ( some USPHL teams )
EHL ( not to be confused where I sojourned in the late 70's ) Tier 3 Pay to play
NA3HL pay to play
USPHL multi level , most pay to play
WSHL pay to play

$8000 to $10,000 to pay for play per year
60 Di programs usually average 3 freshman players per year
6 D2
85D3

And yes I shook Gordie Howe's hand... mine was lost in it and crushed by the force of a pleasant shake!

 

[Yukon Joe]

Here are the leagues in US Junior Hockey. You had better read the fine print for it is deceiving.

USHL- free, billet costs Tier 1
NAHL- free, billet cost Tier 2
NCDC pay to play- not sanctioned by Hockey USA ( some USPHL teams )
EHL ( not to be confused where I sojourned in the late 70's ) Tier 3 Pay to play
NA3HL pay to play
USPHL multi level , most pay to play
WSHL pay to play

$8000 to $10,000 to pay for play per year
60 Di programs usually average 3 freshman players per year
6 D2
85D3

And yes I shook Gordie Howe's hand... mine was lost in it and crushed by the force of a pleasant shake!

OK, so we are talking different things then.

in Canada we have Major Junior/Junior A/B/C for ages 16-20. None of which are "pay to play" that I know of.

Major Junior is of course the CHL. You et paid a stipend plus your billet, and is where you go if you think you have a shot at the majors. Scholarship is offered to a Canadian university depending on how many years you play.

Junior A is the AJHL here in Alberta. Still high level hockey. You play here either because you want to preserve your NCAA eligibility, or think you can still get picked up by an AJHL team.

Junior B is junior hockey for small towns. Having lived in some of those towns they're still a big deal in those communities, but it's almost certainly the end of the road.

And then Junior C is barely above minor rec hockey. It's again in the cities. It is what it is, I'm unclear - you might have to pay a modest amount. But nobody is selling it as a ticket to the pros.