Minor Hockey and out of touch expectations

[oldunclehue]

Hey folks, thought I'd make a thread to discuss the woes of Minor Hockey and as a coach former CHL player, how things have changed, in my opinion for the worse.


Just a bit of background, I grew up playing and loving the sport of Hockey in rural Canada, watching HNIC every Saturday night, Rock Em Sock Em videos and made it to the CHL playing in the WHL. Now I have two sons who are both playing hockey and love the sport. I coach, ref and am a part of hockey development in my area.

But with all of it, I am having a hard time finding a silver lining and seeing what hockey has become in this country.


As a parents:

- I am very supportive and encouraging to my sons, I rarely if ever get upset at them over anything sport related, unless it has to do with the effort/work ethic portion of the sport. If they are involved in a sport, I expect they go in and put in a good effort when on the ice. They both love hockey and I love watching/coaching them. But as a parent, I also see the craziness of the hockey world I am sure we all see. The parents who are spending $50,000 dollars plus, remortgaging houses, taking on second jobs etc etc all to give little Johnny the chance to go to an academy or to play for that elite spring/summer team. For me, I grew up fairly poor, always used hand-me down equipment and played most of my hockey on outdoor rinks until PeeWee. I just find, as a parent it hard for me to want to push my kid and invest in extra opportunities when the chance of them actually making it to a CHL league is about 1%.

As a coach:

- I am amazed at how ridiculous some parents are in regards to their children and this sport. We all see it, but the impatient parent who thinks little Johnny needs to be on the first line and play with only certain players at a young age is ridiculous. As a coach I have been pressured and demanded of by multiple parents to give their child only top tier minutes and opportunities because thats what they believe their child needs to have. I get wanting success for your child, but calling/emailing/cornering volunteer coaches is wild. But when these parents are spending $10,000 a year to play minor hockey, rec hockey, development camps, extended season, spring AAA and more, they are desperate.

These parents are simply ruining hockey for everyone:

1. They make coaching unbearable
2. They ruin their childs desire to play.
3. They make the rink/trips/parent gatherings awkward
4. They are willing to shell out absurd amounts of cash therefore creating the demand for WILD costing academies and programs.
5. They've created the fact that only the rich/pretend rich people can be successful in this sport.


Again....I really don't know if I want my kid to play hockey at a high level with how crappy it is to try and make it there.

Sorry for the rant.

Click to read more...

 

[beedee]

SoCal guy here. My hockey experience is nothing much, I didnt start until my first year of Bantams here in Socal. I played up until Juniors, with only Midget B being my highest level. So I don't have an inkling of experience when it comes to the "Tier" level of hockey that was the elite level around here back in the early to mid 90's.

No need to apologize, I enjoyed your take on the matter. Our daughter is now 7, when she was 6 she went through a handful of programs over the course of a year at our local rink (5 minutes away) that is put on by the Anaheim Ducks.
1. Learn to Skate
2. Learn to Play
3. Little Ducks
4. Little Ducks, Hockey Initiation 1
5. Little Ducks, Hockey Initiation 2

We opted to skip the In-house 6u team and league, even though she was pretty middle of the road as far as ability in her classes. She wanted to keep doing the practices though, and we found another program at another nearby rink that wasn't owned by the Ducks. She REALLY enjoyed that one, her and her friend she made back on day 1 of Learn to Skate both did two more 12 week sessions at this other facility. They didnt have a 6u team, but they had 8u (which a beer league buddy and his brother of mine coached). The plan was to have an A and a B team, with the B team comprised of the 6 year olds. Our daughter didnt want to continue, so we respected that and didnt sign her up for the season...which was actually a Club level, so we were looking at around $3,500 or the season, including jerseys, warm-up attire, etc.. We were very proud of her, she tried her best at each practice and always had a smile on her face while skating.

Our youngest is 3 years old and is always wanting to play hockey with me in our garage. So we pass the puck around, she loves to stick handle and shoot and tries to get the puck from me. It will be interesting to see if she wants to play, when she turns 4 I think we'll sign her up for Learn to Skate.

 

[Yukon Joe]

So

- I am amazed at how ridiculous some parents are in regards to their children and this sport. We all see it, but the impatient parent who thinks little Johnny needs to be on the first line and play with only certain players at a young age is ridiculous. As a coach I have been pressured and demanded of by multiple parents to give their child only top tier minutes and opportunities because thats what they believe their child needs to have. I get wanting success for your child, but calling/emailing/cornering volunteer coaches is wild. But when these parents are spending $10,000 a year to play minor hockey, rec hockey, development camps, extended season, spring AAA and more, they are desperate.

These parents are simply ruining hockey for everyone:

1. They make coaching unbearable
2. They ruin their childs desire to play.
3. They make the rink/trips/parent gatherings awkward
4. They are willing to shell out absurd amounts of cash therefore creating the demand for WILD costing academies and programs.
5. They've created the fact that only the rich/pretend rich people can be successful in this sport.

So I just want to make an observation here. This is my 7th year as a hockey dad, and we're starting to get into older, high-level hockey. To the extent I play the "hockey politics" game it's to:

-make sure my kid makes it to the ice on time
-always be supportive of what the coach is telling my kid
-volunteer lots with the hockey organization
-just generally be the kind of hockey family coaches want as part of their team

And you know what? I think it kind of works. So far we've been pretty "lucky" in terms of getting on some pretty decent teams. Because chirping in a coach's ear about how much my kid is playing might work in the short term, but when it comes time for next year the coach might start thinking "I don't want this kid on my team since those parents are assholes".


As for the cost of it... I try to tell myself that success in hockey isn't about how high a level you play at. I'm only partially successful at that. I'll admit that my kid has been progressing very well at hockey, but it was only from the last couple years where we started doing MORE hockey training that he's really stepped up. I can't deny there's some level of connection between money spent and how well your kid can perform on the ice.

But that genie is out of the bag already. Hockey Canada can't mandate a max number of hours per week on the ice. Even if they could people are leaving Hockey Canada sanctioned programs, trying to get an extra edge for their kids.

So: I put my kid in extra programs if they're within our price range and if my kid wants to do them, but five-figure hockey academies and the like are right out. I want to give my kid his best chance to go as far in hockey as his talent and my limited wallet can take him, but I'll never him as a failure is he doesn't make his U15AAA team or whatever.

We opted to skip the In-house 6u team and league, even though she was pretty middle of the road as far as ability in her classes. She wanted to keep doing the practices though, and we found another program at another nearby rink that wasn't owned by the Ducks. She REALLY enjoyed that one, her and her friend she made back on day 1 of Learn to Skate both did two more 12 week sessions at this other facility. They didnt have a 6u team, but they had 8u (which a beer league buddy and his brother of mine coached). The plan was to have an A and a B team, with the B team comprised of the 6 year olds. Our daughter didnt want to continue, so we respected that and didnt sign her up for the season...which was actually a Club level, so we were looking at around $3,500 or the season, including jerseys, warm-up attire, etc.. We were very proud of her, she tried her best at each practice and always had a smile on her face while skating.

I just have to say $3500 (USD) for a U8 hockey club seems kind of nuts. I've already said my fees for a AA U12 team are $3400 (CDN), for paid coach, 4-5 times per week on the ice (includes practice jersey, warm up gear and the like extra and optional).

Maybe ice is just that expensive in SoCal?

 

[Slats432]

$10,000 a year? Cheap. To play at the highest level, between equipment, registration, advisors, travel, camps, personal training it is likely a $20-25K a year all in endeavour. Now, not all of it is necessary, but parents are made to believe it is necessary by those who try to make those dollars. Just registration for some academies in AB is $30K per year.

The advent of academies has pushed the cost up for everyone.

 

[oldunclehue]

$10,000 a year? Cheap. To play at the highest level, between equipment, registration, advisors, travel, camps, personal training it is likely a $20-25K a year all in endeavour. Now, not all of it is necessary, but parents are made to believe it is necessary by those who try to make those dollars. Just registration for some academies in AB is $30K per year.

The advent of academies has pushed the cost up for everyone.

Yup I agree, $10,000 was for someone playing minor hockey, extended, AAA spring and any summer hockey/camps. Thats on the low end not including travel and expenses.

Hockey academies have ruined hockey in Canada....the one closest to us is just a millionaires way to pad his bank account. He did just build a huge cabin though.

 

[Yukon Joe]

When I count up the cost of equipment, registration, cash calls, extra camps, spring hockey, and hotels /travel costs for tournaments, $10,000 might be the total cost for 12 months of hockey for my older boy. And yes, far less than the $30k fees a hockey academy would want, but still daunting to see it laid out like that.


One parent suggested the following to me: if your kid is really, really, really good - the hockey academies are going to be trying to recruit you. After all it's their business model to have the best team, produce the best prospects. So if that's the case and they offer free / reduced fees, then maybe consider it.

Or the second model - you are the 1%. You have the money to spend, but driving your kid all over town every week is really tough. Then hockey academies might also be worth your while just because they then take care of all the travel to and from the rink.

But if you're not good enough to be recruited, and you have to scrimp and save for the money - then why the hell are you considering an academy?

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I wonder if “expectations” is really quite the right term here? I’m clocking my 25th season of being a hockey dad now. And all my kids started a few years later than they could have, so I could be at over 30 years now if we had just a slightly different experience or friend group with Kid 1.

I find it impossible to truly generalize about other parents though because there are so many different situations and I may not truly understand the motivations and perspectives behind even what might appear on the surface to be some surprising behaviours.

Maybe if I tried to break it down to a percentage I would guesstimate that something like 90-95% of parents are coming at it with their hearts in the right place and the best intentions. They may not even start out with any “expectations” at all. But they get caught up and swept away with the excitement and way the industry preys on them. Junior starts climbing the ranks and the lifestyle becomes all-absorbing and most just genuinely want to facilitate their child’s “dreams”… what they think are their child’s dreams anyway… and it just kind of snowballs.

I had no expectations whatsoever when Kid 1 started in the lowest house league tier. It was only 10 years later when I had pretty much seen the whole lifecycle of it that I really understood things and gained any semblance of perspective (or at least felt like I did). So I have a fair bit of patience for those parents who are still in that initial arc but whose hearts are basically in the right place. You can’t reach them. Nothing I could say will really register. It doesn’t apply to them, not until they see it through on their own.

So I try not to get too cynical or critical. At least with the garden variety majority. It won’t do any good and it isn’t really that different from other kids sports or activities. Parents are just programmed that way wrt their kids. Ok. So be it. Maybe a Kid 2 or Kid 3 will get a different approach with the benefit of that experience. Maybe not… sometimes the absorption into the “lifestyle” is so complete that there is no escape even then. But it’s still “mostly harmless” in the big picture. So they spent a ton of money and focused too narrowly on a single thing … but there ARE worse things that happen to kids and families. Lots worse. And there’s more good, more fun, than bad overall. Lots more.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Hey folks, thought I'd make a thread to discuss the woes of Minor Hockey and as a coach former CHL player, how things have changed, in my opinion for the worse.


Just a bit of background, I grew up playing and loving the sport of Hockey in rural Canada, watching HNIC every Saturday night, Rock Em Sock Em videos and made it to the CHL playing in the WHL. Now I have two sons who are both playing hockey and love the sport. I coach, ref and am a part of hockey development in my area.

But with all of it, I am having a hard time finding a silver lining and seeing what hockey has become in this country.


As a parents:

- I am very supportive and encouraging to my sons, I rarely if ever get upset at them over anything sport related, unless it has to do with the effort/work ethic portion of the sport. If they are involved in a sport, I expect they go in and put in a good effort when on the ice. They both love hockey and I love watching/coaching them. But as a parent, I also see the craziness of the hockey world I am sure we all see. The parents who are spending $50,000 dollars plus, remortgaging houses, taking on second jobs etc etc all to give little Johnny the chance to go to an academy or to play for that elite spring/summer team. For me, I grew up fairly poor, always used hand-me down equipment and played most of my hockey on outdoor rinks until PeeWee. I just find, as a parent it hard for me to want to push my kid and invest in extra opportunities when the chance of them actually making it to a CHL league is about 1%.

As a coach:

- I am amazed at how ridiculous some parents are in regards to their children and this sport. We all see it, but the impatient parent who thinks little Johnny needs to be on the first line and play with only certain players at a young age is ridiculous. As a coach I have been pressured and demanded of by multiple parents to give their child only top tier minutes and opportunities because thats what they believe their child needs to have. I get wanting success for your child, but calling/emailing/cornering volunteer coaches is wild. But when these parents are spending $10,000 a year to play minor hockey, rec hockey, development camps, extended season, spring AAA and more, they are desperate.

These parents are simply ruining hockey for everyone:

1. They make coaching unbearable
2. They ruin their childs desire to play.
3. They make the rink/trips/parent gatherings awkward
4. They are willing to shell out absurd amounts of cash therefore creating the demand for WILD costing academies and programs.
5. They've created the fact that only the rich/pretend rich people can be successful in this sport.


Again....I really don't know if I want my kid to play hockey at a high level with how crappy it is to try and make it there.

Sorry for the rant.

I would ask in response to this, how prevalent do you think these kind of extreme over-the-top parents are?

As I rambled above, I don't think they are THAT common. Perhaps on my kid's AAA teams there were a couple in total. I mean, AAA in general is over-the-top and unnecessary, and they might have burned a lot of money on "chasing the dream", but I figure it's their money to burn however they want to burn it? And the coaches are paid (even if not a ton) at the higher levels, and often find other ways to profit on the side from hockey, so putting up with a certain amount of the generic parental crap is kind of just part of the job description at those levels?

At lower pure-volunteer levels, some of the "desperate" over-the-top parents have of course also realized that they can obtain some of what they want for their kids by... volunteering to coach!

I don't know if it's ONLY the rich/pretend rich people who can be successful in the sport either. Maybe it depends on what you call "successful", though. I think in my oldest kid's whole league maybe only 4 kids got drafted from his year. Maybe only 1 will even make the NHL. Maybe none. But for all the thousands of $ those families spent on those kids (some were "rich" and at least one definitely wasn't) there were many MANY more families who spent just as much trying to manufacture their own "success" as well, and didn't make it that far.

So if by "success" it just means playing AAA/junior/college etc, without any real NHL chance... well, kids CAN still get there without being "rich" if they stick with it long enough and work hard enough, just as the "manufactured" rich kids can. (It also depends on what one calls "rich" because hockey is expensive even without going to the extremes, of course!) Lots of kids who just kept at it and played Tier II or III hockey, or local high school where that model exists, all the way up the ladder can eventually play as older players in good junior leagues right alongside the ones who were Tier I or went to expensive prep/academy schools all the way along. To me, unless your kid is a top superstar on a league/geographic-wide basis, that's the way to do it - keep your head down. If your kid has the drive to eventually make it, take the long view, don't ever spend on extras until they are teenagers, don't ever try out for top tiers or junior leagues until they have aged out of local U18/high school levels. If they have kept at things diligently and still have the drive all the way to 18, they can still make a junior team and have just as much of that level of "success" as those kids whose families spent many many times more $ playing Tier I or going to fancy schools all the way up the ladder. The vast vast majority of them all end up in the same place in the end. Nobody wants to hear that, of course. And for sure the industry doesn't want parents to think that way.

 

[swoopster]

I grew up in Greater Boston playing high school hockey it the late 60’s, early 70’s and college hockey early to mid 70’s. We had rinks on every corner at $20 an hour. As kids, we would get $2 from our parents and on Saturday walk to the rink for our 6 AM skate, $1 for the ice, and $1 for breakfast after… I still treasure those days.


At that time your typical NCAA American freshman hockey player was 18 and a Canadian 19. In the Ivy League, the majority of freshmen were 19, for many prepped a year. That was looked at as necessary for educational purposes, but it also gave the player another year to play and grow.


Then sometime in the 80s, junior hockey began to grow in the US. It did 2 things that I regret seeing. It robbed what was once a powerful MA high school hockey program of players and secondly it created an outlet for NCAA coaches to “season” prospects… and it created an INDUSTRY.

There are leagues everywhere, and except for the top tier, most are pay-to-play.

The risk of an NCAA coach making a mistake with a prospect is nullified when he can convince prospects that they need more development and send off several prospective players to chase a promised dream that may never happen. There are only so many slots available every year at all levels of NCAA hockey, and far too many young men who should be moving on with their life rather than chasing an illusion. I had many a parent come to me with talk of sending his son off to a tryout camp. My reply…they are taking your money. Off a kid goes to play at the parents' cost to play in a lower level junior league, many in parts of the US where the vast amount of NCAA scouting staff will never visit. It’s a scam.

Today the average age of a freshman entering an NCAA Division one program is 20 years old. It doesn’t happen in any other NCAA sport, excluding a red-shirt freshman in football. All that has been achieved is an industry to propagate a false dream and make money off of it.

It’s a shame.

 

[tarheelhockey]

But when these parents are spending $10,000 a year to play minor hockey, rec hockey, development camps, extended season, spring AAA and more, they are desperate.

ding ding ding

The parents are sold a bill of goods that this is going to be some incredible life-changing experience that opens the door to the NHL, and effectively they are denying their child a dream if they don't spend ungodly amounts of money to keep advancing.

The toxicity of this dynamic starts with the nature of the leagues themselves, and selects for people who are willing to commit themselves to toxicity. It's no secret that the ones who stick with it long term are, by and large, extremely unpleasant as a result.

Everyone seems to know this, and nothing is done to improve it. Perhaps it's the inevitable outcome of taking something that should be a community responsibility -- raising young men and women to be good athletes and great human beings -- and turning it into an exploitive private industry. The only way to win the game is not to play.

 

[swoopster]

In all of my cases, the parents of these players are looking for a college scholarship, not the NHL

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

In all of my cases, the parents of these players are looking for a college scholarship, not the NHL

I would say in almost NONE of my experience is that TRULY the case. Oh, they will talk about getting scholarships. They will also laugh and agree that everybody ends up in beer league eventually. But if they have enough money to be spending tens of thousands of dollars on hockey every year for over a decade, they typically have plenty of money to get them higher education also. Few truly NEED the scholarship (as might be the case in some other sports?). It's still a nice feather in the cap if it comes. But would still just be a waypoint. The Dream is still the bigger money (and/or prestige) of the NHL. At least at the beginning. Maybe once the kid has truly plateaued near the end of the road, it can switch to scholarships. But that isn't the motivating factor at the outset, not what keeps the industry booming.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I would say in almost NONE of my experience is that TRULY the case. Oh, they will talk about getting scholarships. They will also laugh and agree that everybody ends up in beer league eventually. But if they have enough money to be spending tens of thousands of dollars on hockey every year for over a decade, they typically have plenty of money to get them higher education also. Few truly NEED the scholarship (as might be the case in some other sports?). It's still a nice feather in the cap if it comes. But would still just be a waypoint. The Dream is still the bigger money (and/or prestige) of the NHL. At least at the beginning. Maybe once the kid has truly plateaued near the end of the road, it can switch to scholarships. But that isn't the motivating factor at the outset, not what keeps the industry booming.

I can't speak for all parents of course, but I have spoken with a lot of parents from my son's U13 AA team. Nobody is talking about the NHL for their kid. Nobody.

But I'll agree it isn't about scholarships either. If we took the money we spent on hockey and just saved it up it would go a long way towards paying for post-secondary anyways, so it hardly makes sense to spend that money just for the chance of a scholarship.

But then why are we doing it? I just think there's a lot to be said about not just playing a sport recreationally, but competing at a high level. About learning the value of hard work and seeing that work pay off in results. About the self-confidence that competing at a high level can bring. There's value in letting your kid try and take his or her passion and see just how far they can take it. I think all those kinds of life lessons are valuable in and of themselves.

 

[Yukon Joe]

The toxicity of this dynamic starts with the nature of the leagues themselves, and selects for people who are willing to commit themselves to toxicity. It's no secret that the ones who stick with it long term are, by and large, extremely unpleasant as a result.

Everyone seems to know this, and nothing is done to improve it. Perhaps it's the inevitable outcome of taking something that should be a community responsibility -- raising young men and women to be good athletes and great human beings -- and turning it into an exploitive private industry. The only way to win the game is not to play.

Okay, so I've said this many times but I didn't play much hockey as a kid - I stopped after 1 or 2 years.

But as my kids have played hockey for several years now I've met more and more people who did play hockey at high levels, including university hockey and junior hockey. And they have almost all been extremely pleasant and well adjusted.

I've met some real assholes to be sure - but they generally did not play hockey at all as a kid, or played just a little and are trying to live out their own dreams through their kid.

If you just want your kid to play hockey twice a week there are pretty affordable ways to do that and still help the kids grow into good human beings. And if one of those kids is truly, truly gifted they'll still shine and have a chance at the pros. But it's not the end of the world if some parents decide to spend more time and money in their kids hockey than others.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I can't speak for all parents of course, but I have spoken with a lot of parents from my son's U13 AA team. Nobody is talking about the NHL for their kid. Nobody.

Oh for sure, they aren't TALKING about it. I totally agree with that. They would self-identify as complete nutcases if they did. Nobody wants to be that blatant about it. It's kind of the etiquette that they would never do that. But there is The Dream, unspoken, ever-present, lingering somewhere in the back of their mind...

But I'll agree it isn't about scholarships either. If we took the money we spent on hockey and just saved it up it would go a long way towards paying for post-secondary anyways, so it hardly makes sense to spend that money just for the chance of a scholarship.

But then why are we doing it? I just think there's a lot to be said about not just playing a sport recreationally, but competing at a high level. About learning the value of hard work and seeing that work pay off in results. About the self-confidence that competing at a high level can bring. There's value in letting your kid try and take his or her passion and see just how far they can take it. I think all those kinds of life lessons are valuable in and of themselves.

And folks can say all those things too, and they can be completely true, and not the least bit mutually exclusive from also having entertained the unspoken Dream.

Although to be honest, I don't think many of these kids learn THAT much about hard work and self-confidence and competing and all that. Many are also just continuing to learn to accept the handouts that their parents are showering on them, and become further entitled and sheltered from a broader experience and reality. There are certainly a range of experiences, it's not all the brochure-speak version you gave.

But I don't mean that to be a negative thing about hockey specifically, because it happens in all kinds of environments. Parents want to provide for their kids, it's only natural, and like I said in some post above, it's all a lot less harmful to do so by chasing a hockey lifestyle than many other things could be, or that something opposite like neglect or direct abuse would be. Having a Dream shouldn't be considered such a bad thing!

 

[tarheelhockey]

Okay, so I've said this many times but I didn't play much hockey as a kid - I stopped after 1 or 2 years.

But as my kids have played hockey for several years now I've met more and more people who did play hockey at high levels, including university hockey and junior hockey. And they have almost all been extremely pleasant and well adjusted.

I've met some real assholes to be sure - but they generally did not play hockey at all as a kid, or played just a little and are trying to live out their own dreams through their kid.

If you just want your kid to play hockey twice a week there are pretty affordable ways to do that and still help the kids grow into good human beings. And if one of those kids is truly, truly gifted they'll still shine and have a chance at the pros. But it's not the end of the world if some parents decide to spend more time and money in their kids hockey than others.

I didn't mean to suggest that organized hockey produces assholes across the board. There are many great people in the sport. And I totally agree, it's up to individual people/families to set their own priorities. Nobody's accountable to anyone else for that sort of thing.

I was responding more narrowly to the matter of why there are so many toxic individuals in the mix. When you've got a prevailing pattern of parents screaming at their kids, badgering coaches, attacking refs... it's a symptom of the environment. Either these leagues attract toxic people, or they teach people to become toxic, or both. But I think it says something very loud and clear that you routinely see hockey parents berating children and adults, whereas you almost never see that sort of behavior in general society or most other social contexts.

Even then, I wouldn't mind it if they openly advertised it that way. "This is a mercenary environment where you can buy your kid a leg up in the development system. Make sure your kid is prepared to give everything to this system, even after it stops being fun". But that's not how people get hooked into it. By the time these kids are pee wees, their parents are $50,000 in the hole and have their identity wrapped up in being a Travel Hockey Family. When a coach puts Junior on the third line, that's the death knell for Junior's ability to ever recover all that investment... the future for Junior suddenly doesn't look all that different than if he had played club hockey... now you've got a parent losing their mind at the coach. Now you've got a coach telling the parent that Junior isn't quite good enough and needs to practice more, and you've got a parent forcing Junior to take private lessons at $250/hr. That kind of spiral is deeply unhealthy on a lot of levels, and it's not what people are signing up for when they get the U8 brochure about "making friends and having fun".

 

[swoopster]

I would say in almost NONE of my experience is that TRULY the case. Oh, they will talk about getting scholarships. They will also laugh and agree that everybody ends up in beer league eventually. But if they have enough money to be spending tens of thousands of dollars on hockey every year for over a decade, they typically have plenty of money to get them higher education also. Few truly NEED the scholarship (as might be the case in some other sports?). It's still a nice feather in the cap if it comes. But would still just be a waypoint. The Dream is still the bigger money (and/or prestige) of the NHL. At least at the beginning. Maybe once the kid has truly plateaued near the end of the road, it can switch to scholarships. But that isn't the motivating factor at the outset, not what keeps the industry booming.

Porter are we talking US or Canada as there are differences. I scouted for the Seattle Thunderbirds in the late '80s, and the mindset is different and more straightforward for Canadian prospects. You are either good enough to play CHL or you're not. That provides a free ride to the slim possibility of the NHL. The education package is attractive to the higher selections, but still. playing in the OHL is free.

I find it seldom that top US NHL prospects choose the CHL route unless they are no miss locks. The security blanket of USHL play and the fallback that is the NCAA in and out in 2 years is more attractive. Yes the exceptions, The Saginaw Spirit do well attracting US players.

I'm glad to have your participation in this thread, as it has been a thorn on my side for many a year.

And to the question, why would a parent shell out $10,000 per year to try to get his kid an NCAA scholarship... a sample of the yearly cost at several NCAA D1 hockey schools in New England... it would shock you that some D3 Ivy schools are much more expensive than that.

Yale $53,000
Boston College $53,500
Boston University$54,700
Northeastern University$54,000
Merrimack $40,000

and on and on...

 

[Yukon Joe]

I didn't mean to suggest that organized hockey produces assholes across the board. There are many great people in the sport. And I totally agree, it's up to individual people/families to set their own priorities. Nobody's accountable to anyone else for that sort of thing.

I was responding more narrowly to the matter of why there are so many toxic individuals in the mix. When you've got a prevailing pattern of parents screaming at their kids, badgering coaches, attacking refs... it's a symptom of the environment. Either these leagues attract toxic people, or they teach people to become toxic, or both. But I think it says something very loud and clear that you routinely see hockey parents berating children and adults, whereas you almost never see that sort of behavior in general society or most other social contexts.

Even then, I wouldn't mind it if they openly advertised it that way. "This is a mercenary environment where you can buy your kid a leg up in the development system. Make sure your kid is prepared to give everything to this system, even after it stops being fun". But that's not how people get hooked into it. By the time these kids are pee wees, their parents are $50,000 in the hole and have their identity wrapped up in being a Travel Hockey Family. When a coach puts Junior on the third line, that's the death knell for Junior's ability to ever recover all that investment... the future for Junior suddenly doesn't look all that different than if he had played club hockey... now you've got a parent losing their mind at the coach. Now you've got a coach telling the parent that Junior isn't quite good enough and needs to practice more, and you've got a parent forcing Junior to take private lessons at $250/hr. That kind of spiral is deeply unhealthy on a lot of levels, and it's not what people are signing up for when they get the U8 brochure about "making friends and having fun".

AGain, maybe this is a Canada-US thing. I don't see almost any of what you describe. To the extent parents get pissed off at the coach, they'll typically do it through a passive-aggressive email. (there is some yelling at youth refs which I hate, but at least it's not abusive).

And that whole hockey infrastructure is optional. I know lots and lots of parents who opt out of it for the most part. I know one friend of my kid - the friend's dad was my kid's coach several years, they're definitely emotionally invested in hockey. But he didn't even try out for AA (even though he at least had a shot at it), does only minimal "extra" practices outside of the club. That's just not what they want to do.

Lots of people are still in it for "making friends and having fun".

 

[tarheelhockey]

AGain, maybe this is a Canada-US thing. I don't see almost any of what you describe. To the extent parents get pissed off at the coach, they'll typically do it through a passive-aggressive email. (there is some yelling at youth refs which I hate, but at least it's not abusive).

This is most definitely a Canada-US thing if were being honest

On a similar note, it’s also worth nothing that there is very little organized hockey available in the US so the exploitive academies have a disproportionate role. There aren’t nearly as many options available for the kids who just want to play for fun.

 

[puckpilot]

Some interesting videos on minor hockey from a podcast done by development coach who works with kids and NHL players.

Short clips from some of their videos




Longer clips




crazy hockey parents stories.

 

[severian]

This post just seems nuts to me but I know it’s true. My 9 year old is an above average, undersized squirt. Hockey in NJ is now stupid expensive (what isn’t) but what I love about it is we’re at the rink 4-5 days a week. He’s typically surrounded with hard-working, non-iPad addicted kids having a great time with each other. He’s working hard and making friends and playing what we both think is the most exciting sport on the planet. I don’t really have expectations for him other than to bust his butt, make friends, have fun and to stay off screens and out of trouble. So far hockey has given us all of that and I couldn’t be happier.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Porter are we talking US or Canada as there are differences. I scouted for the Seattle Thunderbirds in the late '80s, and the mindset is different and more straightforward for Canadian prospects. You are either good enough to play CHL or you're not. That provides a free ride to the slim possibility of the NHL. The education package is attractive to the higher selections, but still. playing in the OHL is free.

I find it seldom that top US NHL prospects choose the CHL route unless they are no miss locks. The security blanket of USHL play and the fallback that is the NCAA in and out in 2 years is more attractive. Yes the exceptions, The Saginaw Spirit do well attracting US players.

I'm glad to have your participation in this thread, as it has been a thorn on my side for many a year.

And to the question, why would a parent shell out $10,000 per year to try to get his kid an NCAA scholarship... a sample of the yearly cost at several NCAA D1 hockey schools in New England... it would shock you that some D3 Ivy schools are much more expensive than that.

Yale $53,000
Boston College $53,500
Boston University$54,700
Northeastern University$54,000
Merrimack $40,000

and on and on...

I feel like it's more hit or miss than just geography. But there is certainly a timeframe where things were vastly different. My oldest son played some tournaments in Canada, and we've had Canadian teams come down, and I never found there to be any real discernible difference in perspective, from the stands anyway. It was more different on a team-by-team basis, like we might have had some ultra-crazy behavior more from one team from Long Island or another from Rochester that stood out to me, and it was basically the same for Canadian teams, some seemed a little saner in the stands than others. But no real difference. The parents and lifestyle appeared intercchangeable.

And I don't think we're talking just $10,000 a year to get one of those NCAA scholarships. the numbers are closer, and the grand total spread across 10+ years can be even bigger in hockey than the 4 year total for those universities/colleges. And then some of the academies and prep schools are already the same sticker price in hockey. So the money is already being spent.

And ALL of this was vastly different than the 80s when I was playing. It's not the same world at all.

But again, I think it's soooo hard to generalize because individual experiences and motivations are so varied, and also I feel like it's not something where people are literally sitting down and writing out a Plan or blueprint for spending this money, a lot of what I'm talking about is more of an undercurrent, the "Dream" level, not spoken out loud, almost never admitted to, perhaps even not to themselves. Because if you did sit down and Plan this out, you would never do it. It just wouldn't make any sense at all. So it HAS to stay at that undercurrent level or else it wouldn't even exist. But The Industry has successfully tapped into that undercurrent and is feasting right now.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Maybe another way to look at my ramblings in this thread: these days parents don't feel like there are any limitations in pursuing The Dream. The NHL itself is really only the thing that sits on top of the dream pyramid. But the real pursuit is "the next higher thing", whatever that happens to be. With the top of the pyramid not as an unreachable endpoint. Now, my daughter played hockey too, and for girls it isn't the NHL sitting at the top. But all the rest is pretty much the same, the parents do all the same things.

So call it a pursuit of prestige, or a higher achievement, whatever, and it's still the same thing. And slots in to all walks of life in what parents may pursue for their children. Just the NHL is the thing at the top of the pyramid in boys hockey. But there is desirable prestige and achievement at all the intermediate steps along the way too.

What has changed is the proliferation of "opportunity". The Industry says if you don't make this team or this coach doesn't take you at this level in this league, then you can go play over there, or pay for that camp, or pay to go to that academy, or hire that power skating instructor, etc. You can eventually find a way to buy the next level. You can buy an alternate route if there seems to be an impediment in the one you're on. And it's not impossible to just keep doing that right up to the top of the pyramid, because so and so did it and The Industry says anybody can do it.

And that's different from when I was a kid, we had 4 rec teams and a rep team and you made the rep team or you didn't and you weren't going anywhere else or doing anything else except coming back next year to try again and maybe you got better or you didn't, so be it. And maybe it's still like that at least a little bit in some smaller or more remote places, I guess. And maybe this is only my perspective coming from a smaller place and now in a bigger place, and it really always has been the same. But it sure feels different to me anyhow.

 

[Yukon Joe]

And ALL of this was vastly different than the 80s when I was playing. It's not the same world at all.

But hockey itself is so different than in the 1980s.

I don't think 80s hockey was quite like 70s-era 'smoking cigarettes during intermission' NHL, but there was not the same skill level, and certainly not the same level of physical fitness. Wayne Gretzky or Gordie Howe wouldn't be able to even make the NHL if they were young players today.

Hell it's true outside of hockey as well. College or university admission is far, far more competitive and difficult than it was in the 1980s.

So I really don't think it's fair to complain that hockey parents aren't treating their kids the same as the 1980s when the world is so different.

 

[swoopster]

"What has changed is the proliferation of "opportunity". The Industry says if you don't make this team or this coach doesn't take you at this level in this league, then you can go play over there, or pay for that camp, or pay to go to that academy, or hire that power skating instructor, etc. You can eventually find a way to buy the next level. You can buy an alternate route if there seems to be an impediment in the one you're on. And it's not impossible to just keep doing that right up to the top of the pyramid, because so and so did it and The Industry says anybody can do it.... And that was different from when I was a kid"

Great words.... and will lead to 2 stories, old school to prove our point.

My college teammate was a part owner in the Seatle thunderbirds WHL Junior team, and I was elevated to NE US scout. I still laugh at the futility of my title. The typical prospect had ZERO ideas as to who the Thunderbirds were, nor any desire to play there. But the prized fruit of MA hockey was playing in the Hockey Night in Boston Summer Showcase of Stars. I picked up my teammate and the head scout at Logan Airport ( who will remain nameless lest people recognize his fame in the industry. )

Off we head to the tournament, with me emphatically stating that the players being looked at have no desire to sign. I'm sitting with Gump Worsley and Claude Ruel other NHL notables. Players to be looked at are Jeremy Roenick, Tony Amonte, and Bill Guerin. Two went to BC and BU, and Gretzky convinced Roenick to spend a junior year with his Hull Olympics. All were in the pros by 20-21. All played High School hockey only... I could go on with many other MA players, Bobby Carpenter, Chris Nilan, Robbie Ftorek, Tom Barrasso, Jack O Callahan, Hal Gill, and on and on. I could fill up a page of MA star hockey players whose parents never spent a dime other than the usual costs of hockey in general to get these guys to where they ended up... played with and against a few. Either you are good enough coming out of high school or you're not. The INDUSTRY changed the dynamic.

And to Yukon Joe...
As I young kid a grew up down the street from Harvard's Watson rink. This was where the Bruins practiced in the late '60s. The rink had no shower facilities and players would have to walk to the nearby fieldhouse to do so.
So as little rink rat kids, we vied to carry sticks and skates for the players back to the fieldhouse. Orr, Giles Marotte, Don Awrey, Eddie Westfall, Johnny Bucyk ,Eddie Shack, etc. If you were lucky enough you got the gig and entered where the players put on their skates. After the practice, you would enter a smoke-filled room with toothless guys drinking beer at noon. We'd get a roll of white tape for the honor... the good old days.

Perhaps one day I'll post as a high school/college player at the Boston Garden.