Mike Modano

[Eye of Ra]

How good was he? What type of impact did he have on the ice?

What kind of numbers would a prime Modano put up in todays NHL?

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[masinaLFC]

How good was he? What type of impact did he have on the ice?

What kind of numbers would a prime Modano put up in todays NHL?

He was great to watch. Huge.

30g 40a 70p

 

[LT]

In terms of impact (and only impact), is Getzlaf a good comparable?

 

[M88K]

How good was he? What type of impact did he have on the ice?

What kind of numbers would a prime Modano put up in todays NHL?

Is it the two way Mike of Hitchcock or did you get to his prime now via a team that would give him offensive freedom?
he'd probably be bounce from 30-40 goals and 50-60 assists in most season anywhere from 80-100p with his speed and the way the game is today, he'd be really good still, maybe even better.

 

[txomisc]

Is it the two way Mike of Hitchcock or did you get to his prime now via a team that would give him offensive freedom?
he'd probably be bounce from 30-40 goals and 50-60 assists in most season anywhere from 80-100p with his speed and the way the game is today, he'd be really good still, maybe even better.

if we are talking prime offensive modano on todays teams he finishes ahead of benn and seguin in points every year. He was a much better puck passer and more explosive than either of them. Prime two-way modano probalby still gets 80ish points while going up against opponents best players and shutting them down.

 

[Troy McClure]

if we are talking prime offensive modano on todays teams he finishes ahead of benn and seguin in points every year. He was a much better puck passer and more explosive than either of them. Prime two-way modano probalby still gets 80ish points while going up against opponents best players and shutting them down.

No way. Both Benn and Seguin have had more impressive offensive seasons than Modano ever did when you compare their results to their peers. In 13-14, Seguin finished 4th in points and tied for 5th in goal scoring. Benn finished 9th in goal scoring and tied for 8th in point scoring. In 14-15, Seguin finished tied for 5th in goal scoring. Benn's Art Ross in 14-15 was something Modano never came close to doing. Benn also finished 9th in goal scoring that season. In 15-16, Benn finished 3rd in goals and 2nd in points. Seguin finished tied for 10th in goals.

When it comes to top ten finishes, here are Modano's results:

93-94 - tied for 8th in goal scoring (his 50 goal season)
99-00 - 8th in goal scoring; tied for 8th in point scoring
01-02 - tied for 9th in point scoring
02-03 - tied for 10th in point scoring

Benn has twice been named first team All Star. Modano never once got that.

 

[M88K]

No way. Both Benn and Seguin have had more impressive offensive seasons than Modano ever did when you compare their results to their peers. In 13-14, Seguin finished 4th in points and tied for 5th in goal scoring. Benn finished 9th in goal scoring and tied for 8th in point scoring. In 14-15, Seguin finished tied for 5th in goal scoring. Benn's Art Ross in 14-15 was something Modano never came close to doing. Benn also finished 9th in goal scoring that season. In 15-16, Benn finished 3rd in goals and 2nd in points. Seguin finished tied for 10th in goals.

When it comes to top ten finishes, here are Modano's results:

93-94 - tied for 8th in goal scoring (his 50 goal season)
99-00 - 8th in goal scoring; tied for 8th in point scoring
01-02 - tied for 9th in point scoring
02-03 - tied for 10th in point scoring

Benn has twice been named first team All Star. Modano never once got that.

You are going off where they finished? and compared to their Peers? Mike's peers(included Lemieux and Gretzky btw) >>>>> Benn and Seguin.
Mike Modano broke 90p (not 1 but 2x), Benn nor Seguin has even once. But because Modano didn't win the art ross. he's somehow getting shortchanged?
You realize how faulty the logic you are applying is?

Benn's best season is 89 p( he's broken 80p 2x in his career)
Seguins career high is 84 (broken 80 1 x)
Modano best season is 93p(hit 2x) (Broke 80 8x)
By the time mike was 23 he had a 93p season to his credit, and followed that up with another 93p season.


Benn has hit 1p per game 2x in his career
Seguin 3x.
Mike 10x, and was within 1p 2 additional times.
by the time he was 25 (Seguins age) he had scored 512p in 501gp,
Seguin is at 427p in 508gp,
Benn is at 517p in 585)

There is no comparison Mike > Benn and Seguin

 

[masinaLFC]

bit different scoring era don't you think? when Modano scored 93 points in 92-93 there were 21 guys who scored more than 100... as much as I like Mo and he is the reason why I am the Stars fan, the edge goes to Benn and Seguin here imo

 

[Eye of Ra]

Did Modano play with any grit?

 

[Smelling Salt]

I love Benn and Seguin but I honestly can't think of much offensively they do better than Mike other than:

- Benn has a better wrister especially in tight and getting it off his stick quicker
- Benn is a better dangler in tight

- Seguin probably has a more accurate one timer. Mo unleashed a cannon but it wasn't as accurate as Tyler's

I think he basically scores at same rate he did after his early 93 points seasons. So basically 30-35 goals 80-85 points.

 

[lakai17]

No way. Both Benn and Seguin have had more impressive offensive seasons than Modano ever did when you compare their results to their peers. In 13-14, Seguin finished 4th in points and tied for 5th in goal scoring. Benn finished 9th in goal scoring and tied for 8th in point scoring. In 14-15, Seguin finished tied for 5th in goal scoring. Benn's Art Ross in 14-15 was something Modano never came close to doing. Benn also finished 9th in goal scoring that season. In 15-16, Benn finished 3rd in goals and 2nd in points. Seguin finished tied for 10th in goals.

When it comes to top ten finishes, here are Modano's results:

93-94 - tied for 8th in goal scoring (his 50 goal season)
99-00 - 8th in goal scoring; tied for 8th in point scoring
01-02 - tied for 9th in point scoring
02-03 - tied for 10th in point scoring

Benn has twice been named first team All Star. Modano never once got that.

Modano had a lot more competition in the 90's. Imagine if Hull was with Modano throughout their entire careers or if Modano had another offensive juggernaut to perform with.

*Look at the league leaders in points for the 93, 99, 01 and 02 seasons. (8th in 93 for goals was good considering Bure potted 60, in 99 eigth was decent as no player even hit the 100 point plateau)

Lehtinen was great due to his two way game. One of the best two way players who goes under the radar which helped Modano's game definitely.

At the same time the Stars had Ken Hitchcock as their coach who liked a more defensive game when Modano was in his prime.

 

[Frozen Failure]

I always preferred Lehtinen.

 

[dauntlless]

I think you need to look at over all level of competition in the 90's vs. the today.

Go back and look at the players and outside of Crosby and McDavid your outside the top 10 forwards before you would think of taking a Stamkos, Ovechkin, Thorton, Bergeron. And a majority of those players in the 90's played better two-way than a vast majority of forwards now days.

There is a reason players of today that are of the top tier or generational are compared to be like or can possibly be close to as good to a lot of players in the 90's. The top of the 90's had a lot more talent than today.

Yes goalies are tremendously better now than in the 90's but todays forwards are not dragging defense men over the blue line with them . Give Modano the freedom that Seguin and Benn have now days and his point totals would go up.

Damn it would be nice to see that jersey fluttering on every shift outside of pre-game and the odd break away.

 

[Troy McClure]

Man, the players today are better. Much better. The reasons they aren't putting up the same numbers are many:

- Goaltending - goaltending up to about 1994 was a joke. Go back and watch the highlight videos from the 70s and 80s. Those stand up goalies were rediculous. The goals they let in on a nightly basis would get them sent down to the AHL today.

- Enforcers - with the death of the enforcer, we've seen the skill level of the whole roster improve. The days of having a guy on the bench who could barely play the game are gone. That alone added more competition to the modern game.

- Conditioning - Every player on every team today is in amazing shape. It has raised the compete level of every person on the roster. It has narrowed the athleticism gap where the superstars no longer looks superhuman because every guy they go up against is in top shape.

- Video - there are no surprises. Every team goes into a game knowing the other teams strengths and weaknesses. The players are all much more coached up to take away an opponent's favorite tricks.

- Systems - Bob Gainey won Selke trophies by shadowing the other team's best player. When Modano was in his prime, teams played defense by clutching and grabbing the guys without the puck. Today, those approaches would be laughed at. Today, teams know so much more about how to reduce scoring chances. They do it with positional play (including stuff like blade mirroring) that is far more precise than in prior eras.

It's crazy to look at point totals from the past and use those to say those players are better. Players in every sport get better with time. They are better conditioned, better coached, bigger, faster, etc. It's why comparing players to their peers is the best way to get a feel for their quality.

Reminds me of a time when a guy told me Kari had something like the 15th best career save percentage in NHL history. He brought it up to explain why he though Kari was so awesome. But when I looked up the number, I saw 13 or so of the guys ahead of Kari on that list were his peers -- active NHL goalies. So, yeah, Kari was 15th in NHL hopistory, but he was still not very good compared to the other guys in the league at the same time.

 

[M88K]

Man, the players today are better. Much better. The reasons they aren't putting up the same numbers are many:

- Goaltending - goaltending up to about 1994 was a joke. Go back and watch the highlight videos from the 70s and 80s. Those stand up goalies were rediculous. The goals they let in on a nightly basis would get them sent down to the AHL today.

- Enforcers - with the death of the enforcer, we've seen the skill level of the whole roster improve. The days of having a guy on the bench who could barely play the game are gone. That alone added more competition to the modern game.

- Conditioning - Every player on every team today is in amazing shape. It has raised the compete level of every person on the roster. It has narrowed the athleticism gap where the superstars no longer looks superhuman because every guy they go up against is in top shape.

- Video - there are no surprises. Every team goes into a game knowing the other teams strengths and weaknesses. The players are all much more coached up to take away an opponent's favorite tricks.

- Systems - Bob Gainey won Selke trophies by shadowing the other team's best player. When Modano was in his prime, teams played defense by clutching and grabbing the guys without the puck. Today, those approaches would be laughed at. Today, teams know so much more about how to reduce scoring chances. They do it with positional play (including stuff like blade mirroring) that is far more precise than in prior eras.

It's crazy to look at point totals from the past and use those to say those players are better. Players in every sport get better with time. They are better conditioned, better coached, bigger, faster, etc. It's why comparing players to their peers is the best way to get a feel for their quality.

Reminds me of a time when a guy told me Kari had something like the 15th best career save percentage in NHL history. He brought it up to explain why he though Kari was so awesome. But when I looked up the number, I saw 13 or so of the guys ahead of Kari on that list were his peers -- active NHL goalies. So, yeah, Kari was 15th in NHL hopistory, but he was still not very good compared to the other guys in the league at the same time.

Glutching and Grab would still be amazingly effective today, if not for all the penalty calls these days.
The only reason it would be laughed at, is because if teams did (they still use it in the PO just look at the Blues and Anaheim) as much or as blatantly as they did in the 90's it would be non stop PP's.
Back then it was the norm, They also had the 2 line pass to help make those system more effective, but it doesn't really need to exists to make interfering with players a valid defense which is all the glutch and grab was..
If you took any player from todays era and threw them into the 90's era, players like Seguin would be getting killed by the Scott Stevens and Chris Pronger types. Benn may still fare well. but guys like Crosby, he would be literally be lindros 2.0 hell he almost is with a much tamer league, McDavid also would struggle against that era of hockey.
You can think the players are "better" even much better, but tell me how you think a Crosby, Ovechkin or McDavid would fare with a prime Hatcher or Stevens especially against the boards, without the open ice because of the 2 line pass and glutch and grab systems where they are literally mugging you all the way up the ice.
For players like Modano to be great they had to deal with all of that, and still put up impressive numbers.
Half the reason McDavid is good is because of his speed, which is why he looked like **** for such large portions of the playoffs, the rules change and you can get away with more "defense". Same applies to Crosby, he struggles in the playoffs compared to regular season because of the rule differences, and even still the PO of this era are tamer than the 90's

Better players throughout the lineup is a wash too.
Lot of teams have nobodies that just fight or play 10 or so minutes a game without no real talent. Steve Ott(granted just retired), Ryan Reeves, Boll, Tootoo, Thorburn, Mcleod, Neil, S. Thornton, Skille, The list goes on.
In Dallas, Alone we have Cracknell, and McKenzie and we just got rid of another in Eakin.
Sure they don't "fight" and aren't enforcers but their overall talent is pretty comparable I mean some of those Enforcers, had talent.
Hell Probert was almost a 30 goal scorer

 

[Troy McClure]

Crosby, Ovechkin, and McDavid would all out produce Modano if they Syed in his era. They are better players.

 

[M88K]

Crosby, Ovechkin, and McDavid would all out produce Modano if they Syed in his era. They are better players.

I don't think so Crosby and Ovechkin have had the benefit of extra space from the rule changes and the crack down on penalties. I doubt they would be as effective in that era, They'd be good players still, assuming they could stay healthy. But I'd take Modano over them in that era because while mo was never tough, he's not as weak as those 3. The game was a lot meaner and violent back then. Even the Biggest hits today aren't all that comparable, and Crosby barely stays healthy now

 

[Troy McClure]

I'll very gladly take the very best of this era over a guy who never did better than eight most productive player of his era.

 

[M88K]

I'll very gladly take the very best of this era over a guy who never did better than eight most productive player of his era.

You put a lot of stock into something that literally means nothing.
You're entitled to your opinion, but that is all you have to go on, we might as well say Joe Malone was the very best of his generation and would be the among the best today.
It's wrong, and he would literally have circles skated around him but he finished tops in scoring in most of the years he played so it must just mean that he's good enough to be the best in any generation right?
Or we could simple look at the players from Mo's generation and compare them(and their Numbers to todays players)

Sidney Crosby's best season was 120p (not even the highest points for this generation
That season puts him at 3rd for all players from 05-17 (Behind Jagr at 123 and Thornton at 125)
Crosby is 3rd, 9th, 18th, 21st, 23rd (during that time frame)
Ovechkin is 6th, 8th, 10th, 13th, 49th (for reference)

Now when adjusted to include 90-17
Crosby 120p season sits at 26th.
Ovechkin 112p season sits at 36.

Cherry picking and saying crosby's 120p would translate to each year
in 90-91 he'd a finished 3rd, Ovechkin 5.
91-92 4th and 5th
92-93, 11th and 12th.
93-94 t-2nd and t-4
94-95(lockout # used) 9th and 9th
95-96 4th, and 7th
96-97 2nd, and 3rd,
97-98 1st and 2nd,
98-99 2nd and 3rd.
99-00 1st and 2nd.

That is if they produced at their absolute career high each and every season and especially in the case of Crosby 120p is more an anomaly than a repeatedly achievable high (has never gotten close to that again).
Now If go off their career season average.
85.55p for Crosby and 86.25p for Ovechkin

90-91 -22nd and 21nd
91-92 -24 and t-22nd
92-93 -t-41st and t-39
93-94 -t-26 and t-24
94-95-(lockout) 9th and 9th
95-96 -t-25 and 24
96-97 -t-13 and t-11
97-98 -9th and t-8
98-99 -12th and 11th
99-00 -5th and 4th

In only 1 yr would they both be in the "top 8" that is of course assuming they could score at the same rate they have over their "current" era career. Which would not happen with the rules and physicality that existed back then, hell bear hugs were almost legal back then.
Because Crosby is 29, I stopped at the 99-00 season because Modano would be 30 at the conclusion of that season.

I know this won't mean a whole lot to you, because you keep going with that Never above top 8 in his era. But as you can see based on the average number of points they've put up over their careers to date, they wouldn't break the top 8 during Mo's era except for in 1 season, and that is assuming of course that with the decreased space, and the increased physicality either were able to maintain even that pace, which is highly unlikely. We'll just have to agree to disagree

 

[Troy McClure]

You seem to have a problem understanding that points are harder to earn today than in the past. If you put Crosby in the 80s when there was no goaltending and no full influx of European competition, his scoring would double.

 

[Benneguin]

Man, the players today are better. Much better. The reasons they aren't putting up the same numbers are many:

- Goaltending - goaltending up to about 1994 was a joke. Go back and watch the highlight videos from the 70s and 80s. Those stand up goalies were rediculous. The goals they let in on a nightly basis would get them sent down to the AHL today.

- Enforcers - with the death of the enforcer, we've seen the skill level of the whole roster improve. The days of having a guy on the bench who could barely play the game are gone. That alone added more competition to the modern game.

- Conditioning - Every player on every team today is in amazing shape. It has raised the compete level of every person on the roster. It has narrowed the athleticism gap where the superstars no longer looks superhuman because every guy they go up against is in top shape.

- Video - there are no surprises. Every team goes into a game knowing the other teams strengths and weaknesses. The players are all much more coached up to take away an opponent's favorite tricks.

- Systems - Bob Gainey won Selke trophies by shadowing the other team's best player. When Modano was in his prime, teams played defense by clutching and grabbing the guys without the puck. Today, those approaches would be laughed at. Today, teams know so much more about how to reduce scoring chances. They do it with positional play (including stuff like blade mirroring) that is far more precise than in prior eras.

It's crazy to look at point totals from the past and use those to say those players are better. Players in every sport get better with time. They are better conditioned, better coached, bigger, faster, etc. It's why comparing players to their peers is the best way to get a feel for their quality.

Reminds me of a time when a guy told me Kari had something like the 15th best career save percentage in NHL history. He brought it up to explain why he though Kari was so awesome. But when I looked up the number, I saw 13 or so of the guys ahead of Kari on that list were his peers -- active NHL goalies. So, yeah, Kari was 15th in NHL hopistory, but he was still not very good compared to the other guys in the league at the same time.

I'm not sure what point you are making but the reason why goalies today produce better numbers is because they play with lighter, bigger and better quality equipment than in previous generations not to mention rule changes that have benefited them. The butterfly, which started with guys like Glenn Hall didn't become feasible until the equipment changed. Today's goalies are fortunate that they can be effective through positioning alone thanks to the butterfly and being taller. Comparing today's goalies with those in the past is like comparing Usain Bolt running in high tech shoes on today's tracks vs Usain Bolt racing in a potato sack on a wheat field.

 

[Troy McClure]

The first NHL team to hire a goalie coach was in the early 80s. Some NHL teams took until the early 90s to hire goalie coaches. This is more than equipment. The guys today know the position more and stop more pucks than their predecessors because their positioning is so much better today.

But to answer your first question, the point I was making there was that looking only at raw numbers can lead you to the wrong conclusion. I had a guy trying to tell me Kari was an elite goalie based on this "top x of all time" number when the problem is the list showed Kari wasn't even a top ten amongst his peers on the same list. If he wasn't even top five or ten of goalies he plays against, then he is not elite.

 

[Troy McClure]

The most fascinating thing about this is to lean how many people look at raw numbers and use those to conclude players in the 80s and early 90s we're far better players all because they were able to score more then.

 

[Benneguin]

The most fascinating thing about this is to lean how many people look at raw numbers and use those to conclude players in the 80s and early 90s we're far better players all because they were able to score more then.

I suspect you are right but I don't see where the evidence is to suggest how many actually do that. I've been following hockey since the 80-81 season. Grew up a Rangers fan. I despised the Isles back then yet I'd still argue Trottier, Bossy, Potvin, etc., would do just fine in today's game and certainly Gretzky who would still lead the league in points.

 

[PatrikBerglund]

The players, systems and goalies are much better today than they were when Modano was in his prime.

He wouldn't be close to 100 points in today's hockey.

#nostalgiaglassessuck