Mike Green

[Laser Rayzor]

You do realize we are averaging less than 1 goal per game against St Louis and Chicago, right? Those are the best teams in the division. Scoring goals is kind of important. I don't see us trading for Green, I just disagree with your claim that we don't need offensive dmen.

+1,

We need both a physical stay at home guy since our D is softer than a pillow and someone with PP QB capabilities because beyond Kronwall I don't see anyone that is nearly up to the task.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Our defense has a lot of needs, boys.
No need to fight over whether it's offensively or defensively.
There's plenty of need to go around :/

 

[shultzyfeelinirie20]

^^agreed but other than Green who else is out there i know the Devils have some D depth but would you guys rather us pickup/trade for a bonified number1 D or get say maybe a 2nd and a 3rd pairing guy while we would have to trade Q and Kindl and prolly a pick n prospect

 

[Run the Jewels]

White will help when he returns. Smith should get better. Holland isn't trading a roster player.

 

[solo16]

We've got plenty of defensive defensemen. What we need is an offensive defenseman. Green would fit the bill but as we all know Holland does not trade roster players. So if we are going to acquire Green it will be when he's in his mid 30s as an UFA.

This is the second time you've said this. It just is not right.

Kronwall: Offensive Defenseman who is decent defensively (2 way guy)
Ericsson: Offensive Defenseman who is decent defensively (2 way guy)
White: Offensive Defenseman who is decent defensively (2 way guy)
Cola: Offensive Defenseman
Smith: Offensive Defenseman who is decent defensively (2 way guy) (I think he is decent defensively... so shoot me).
Quincey: Offensive Defenseman who is decent defensively (2 way guy) (theoretically good defensively... but imo probably isnt).
Kindl: Offensive Defenseman (who is not even that good)
Huskins: Defensive Defenseman
Lashoff: Defensive Defenseman

Green: Offensive Defenseman who is decent defensively (2 way guy)

Kronwall Green
Smith Ericsson
Quincey White

Some combination of those 6 would actually not be too bad. That is an extremely mobile two way backend. Both Smith, Kronwall, Ericsson can play RD (reasonably well) if needed. Green and White are the two right hand shots.

Green/Kronwall/Ericsson/Quincey are all adequate shot blockers for the PK. White Smith could both play PK in a pinch. I like it.

Sign me up.

Green to many options to list trade wise but Kindl obviously goes. Hate to say it but Oulette probably does too.

 

[detredWINgs]

Is there no one available that can actually defend?

I'm tired of defensemen that are average on defense with some supposed offensive upside. Which will never matter because we can never get out of our own end.

Agreed. We basically need the Brad Stuart of 2-3 years ago.

 

[Frk It]

We've got plenty of defensive defensemen. What we need is an offensive defenseman.

I think you have that backwards...

 

[Brick Top]

Ericsson: Offensive Defenseman who is decent defensively (2 way guy)

I pretty much agree with your assessment of the D-men except for Big E- the guy is far from an offensive defenseman. We may be hoping he continues his glacial development into being a lockdown defender, but I don't see him ever getting real PP minutes- he's just not great with the puck.

 

[icKx]

E is a defensive defenseman. Kindl was supposed to be a point producer but now looks more like a stay at home. White is pretty balanced.

Defensemen in the Brad Stuart mold are not that hard to come by. Green is an elite offensive talent, is right handed to plug the hole on the PP and his defense is underrated.

Ship out Quincey and bring in Murray, Scuderi, Volchenkov, or whoever if you want a Stuart replacement.

People keep bringing up Bogosian but that ship sailed when he got his **** together. Time to deal for him was summer 2011. Jets are desperately trying to make the playoffs, not looking to sell.

 

[Run the Jewels]

This is the second time you've said this. It just is not right.

Kronwall: Offensive Defenseman who is decent defensively (2 way guy)
Ericsson: Offensive Defenseman who is decent defensively (2 way guy)
White: Offensive Defenseman who is decent defensively (2 way guy)
Cola: Offensive Defenseman
Smith: Offensive Defenseman who is decent defensively (2 way guy) (I think he is decent defensively... so shoot me).
Quincey: Offensive Defenseman who is decent defensively (2 way guy) (theoretically good defensively... but imo probably isnt).
Kindl: Offensive Defenseman (who is not even that good)
Huskins: Defensive Defenseman
Lashoff: Defensive Defenseman

Green: Offensive Defenseman who is decent defensively (2 way guy)

Kronwall Green
Smith Ericsson
Quincey White

Some combination of those 6 would actually not be too bad. That is an extremely mobile two way backend. Both Smith, Kronwall, Ericsson can play RD (reasonably well) if needed. Green and White are the two right hand shots.

Green/Kronwall/Ericsson/Quincey are all adequate shot blockers for the PK. White Smith could both play PK in a pinch. I like it.

Sign me up.

Green to many options to list trade wise but Kindl obviously goes. Hate to say it but Oulette probably does too.

Uh, no. Ericsson is not an offensive defenseman. I've been one of his biggest fans here but he's nowhere near being an offensive defenseman in the NHL. He's had three seasons of 60+ games in the NHL and his highest point total is 15 points. So thanks for playing but you didn't get this one right. Better luck next time.

We've lost Mathieu Schneider (50ish point d-man), Brian Rafalski (50ish point d-man) and Nick Lidstrom (50ish point d-man). We only have one d-man who has put up a 50 point season, and he did it once. That's the simple truth, look it up if you like. Green has put up two 70 point season. We currently do not have a high end offensive defenseman on this team. High end meaning a guy who consistently puts up 50+ points. Name me one on our current roster.

Mike Green would certainly help offset the loss of Rafi and Lidstrom as we lack high end offensive defensemen. Defensive defensemen are easy to acquire as we've shown with Lashoff, Huskins and Ericsson. Kronwall, White, Quincey and Cola are all mediocre 30 point offensive defensemen.

So I stand by my point that we need a high end offensive d-man capable of putting up 50+ points a season. We ain't getting Green but he'd obviously fill the need perfectly.

 

[solo16]

I pretty much agree with your assessment of the D-men except for Big E- the guy is far from an offensive defenseman. We may be hoping he continues his glacial development into being a lockdown defender, but I don't see him ever getting real PP minutes- he's just not great with the puck.

Disagree. If you follow Ericsson's career he has always been more of an offensive guy than a defensive guy. Babcock has spent the last 3 years turning him into a shut down guy. Granted Babcock has had some success and he is becoming very defensively responsible but he was almost a purely offensive guy in Grand Rapids.

Therefore I still see him as a Offensive guy first that Babcock is slowly morphing into a shut down guy. As recently as two years ago we thought he sucked defensively.

 

[solo16]

Uh, no. Ericsson is not an offensive defenseman. I've been one of his biggest fans here but he's nowhere near being an offensive defenseman in the NHL. He's had three seasons of 60+ games in the NHL and his highest point total is 15 points. So thanks for playing but you didn't get this one right. Better luck next time.

When you join a team with Rafi, Lidstrom, Kronwall, White, even Stuart and are told to play good defense or your not playing it is pretty obvious why he has not put up points. Ericsson has been a good solider and done what his coach said. He may not have the creativity of Kronwall (hockey sense) but he has a cannon of a shot and a pretty nice pass. In his tenure with the wings we have not seen much of it because he has been specifically told by his coach to be the safe defender.

Every season with injuries the offensive Ericsson comes out for a game or two. If he was a defensive defenseman he would be alot better on the defense side of things! The simple truth is he has been learning the defensive side of the game mostly under Babcock.

So before you jump on my opinion, son, try following the wings and their prospects for more than a couple years. Enjoy the education on a clearly offensive defenseman. With that skill set a true shut down guy just ain't realistic. He will always have Chara two-way comparisons http://www.redwingscentral.com/vault/jonathan-ericsson/

 

[Frk It]

Any time your third line is centered by Helm and fourth line by Abdelkader, you're not going to have three scoring lines.

And this is the issue with Helm.

He's one of our best players, but he totally doesn't fit our system. I'd prefer him at wing if he's a third liner

Helm is only 1/3 of a line. If you put him with 2 skilled players you can still have a scoring line.

If Miller, Helm, Cleary is your 3rd line then you have the opposite of a scoring line.

Tatar and Nyquist are both skilled guys, one is a finisher and one is a set-up man. All 3 can skate (with Helm included). That line could probably do some damage.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I think you have that backwards...

Nah, defensive defensemen are easy to acquire. Not so easy to acquire 50+ point offensive defensemen. Our best bet would be to try to acquire the rights to Lubomir Visnovsky. He put up 68 points in 2010-11 before he was traded to the Isles.

Guess how many d-men we have who have put up a 60+ point season? Lubo's basically done it three times.

 

[Run the Jewels]

When you join a team with Rafi, Lidstrom, Kronwall, White, even Stuart and are told to play good defense or your not playing it is pretty obvious why he has not put up points. Ericsson has been a good solider and done what his coach said. He may not have the creativity of Kronwall (hockey sense) but he has a cannon of a shot and a pretty nice pass. In his tenure with the wings we have not seen much of it because he has been specifically told by his coach to be the safe defender.

Every season with injuries the offensive Ericsson comes out for a game or two. If he was a defensive defenseman he would be alot better on the defense side of things! The simple truth is he has been learning the defensive side of the game mostly under Babcock.

So before you jump on my opinion, son, try following the wings and their prospects for more than a couple years. Enjoy the education on a clearly offensive defenseman. With that skill set a true shut down guy just ain't realistic. He will always have Chara two-way comparisons http://www.redwingscentral.com/vault/jonathan-ericsson/

Let me just say a few people who obviously "follow the Wings and their prospects" have chimed in to say Ericsson is not an offensive defenseman. No one agrees with you. So enjoy living in your plastic bubble away from the real world. Oh and by the way, when's the last time RWC has updated their profile on Ericsson? I only ask because your link includes the word VAULT in the URL.

 

[Frk It]

Nah, defensive defensemen are easy to acquire. Not so easy to acquire 50+ point offensive defensemen. .

Not disagreeing with this. But my point was we don't have plenty of defensive defensemen, and while we may need an actual elite offensive defensemen, we generally have 4-5 offensive defensemen in the lineup most nights.

We have maybe 2 guys who I would say are 2 defensive defensemen, based on tendencies and positioning. Even Ericsson and Huskins don't play very physical though, and neither guys are big shot blockers.

 

[Bench]

Green is a dream for the powerplay.

And despite what Washington fans think on the internet, he'd still command an excellent sum in trade. Think Dion Phaneuf. That trade was:

Ian White, Matt Stajan, Niklas Hagman and Jamal Mayers.

At the time White was around a 20-30 point top 4 defender. Stajan had a 55 point season and had just scored 41 points in 55 games. Hagman has scored 20 goals in 55 games. Mayers was a veteran bottom 6 guy.

Now obviously the only piece in that trade that worked out for the Flames was Stajan, and even he regressed substantially. But AT THE TIME take a look at the bounty it took to get a guy who was "soured" with fans.

A young, improving center. A young top 4 defender with offensive upside. A 20 goal scorer with speed. And a scrappy bottom 6 forward.

Do the Wings have some combination of assets similar that would entice Washington to move him? A similar deal would include White, ironically. A guy of Helm caliber. And then a guy like Brunner, if he comes anywhere near 20 goal pace. Add Miller/Eaves.

What I'm trying to say is I don't think Quincey and hopeful prospects is going to entice Washington who is sitting on prime Backstrom and Ovechkin RIGHT NOW.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Not disagreeing with this. But my point was we don't have plenty of defensive defensemen, and while we may need an actual elite offensive defensemen, we generally have 4-5 offensive defensemen in the lineup most nights.

We have maybe 2 guys who I would say are 2 defensive defensemen, based on tendencies and positioning. Even Ericsson and Huskins don't play very physical though, and neither guys are big shot blockers.

Huskins, Kronwall, Quincey, and Lashoff have all blocked more shots this season than Brad Stuart. Ericsson would too if he hadn't missed games due to injury. Things are trending up as we've only allowed 6 goals in regulation over our last 3 games. The downside is we've only scored 7 goals. Our margin for error is razor thin and I don't think you can ask much more from the defense. We need some offensive firepower and ideally it would come from our defense. Smith should help and getting White back will. The larger problem is we don't have a high end d-man who we can count on to help us generate more offense.

 

[solo16]

Let me just say a few people who obviously "follow the Wings and their prospects" have chimed in to say Ericsson is not an offensive defenseman. No one agrees with you. So enjoy living in your plastic bubble away from the real world. Oh and by the way, when's the last time RWC has updated their profile on Ericsson? I only ask because your link includes the word VAULT in the URL.

I know it is in the vault I got it from there to show the historical development of the player as I believe that is an important factor in evaluating a player. Whether or not people agree with me is immaterial.

We are getting our terms somewhat confused. There are two ways to classify defensemen.

1. We can speak from a purely player development means as I have been doing. Ericsson is a Offensive defenseman because he has the right tools and abilities to play offensively. All our defenseman save Huskins/Lashoff were developed as Offensive defensemen. They were scouted because of offensive skills and were given the opportunity to "learn the defensive skills". Often while developing it says needs to become more responsible defensively!

2. We can talk about how a player is used. This takes into consideration how the coach uses the player, how he interacts with the other players we have and general effectiveness. Ericsson is a defensive Defenseman because he has always at the NHL level been deployed as one. Babcock wants Quincey to be a Defensive Defenseman (though he is sucking at that so far... though Big E used too as well).

So i suppose we can both be right if you split it up like that. Both our points carry validity.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I know it is in the vault I got it from there to show the historical development of the player as I believe that is an important factor in evaluating a player. Whether or not people agree with me is immaterial.

Hugh Jessiman is a goal scoring power forward that can skate, we should go get that guy..... There is some point where you have to take what has actually happened into account. Ericsson has a big shot that he struggles to get through, doesn't read the play to jump in but once every ten games. He is not an Offensive Defenseman. He can chip in offense and more than he has really, but the argument cannot be made that he fits what you're trying to call him.

 

[Brick Top]

Therefore I still see him as a Offensive guy first that Babcock is slowly morphing into a shut down guy. As recently as two years ago we thought he sucked defensively.

As recently as 2 years ago, Ericsson DID suck defensively. Sorry, that jumped into my mind faster than Helm on a breakaway. IMO, E is still not great on the defensive end, but he's still a better defender than offensive threat.

Every season with injuries the offensive Ericsson comes out for a game or two. If he was a defensive defenseman he would be alot better on the defense side of things! The simple truth is he has been learning the defensive side of the game mostly under Babcock.

With that skill set a true shut down guy just ain't realistic. He will always have Chara two-way comparisons http://www.redwingscentral.com/vault/jonathan-ericsson/

I respect your opinion, and he did put up some decent offensive #'s with the Griffins. Of course, so did Mursak, so that's not always the best barometer to use And I certainly wish he was better on the defensive end, and I'll bet Babs does too, especially this season.

I checked out your link, and I didn't see the Chara comparison. Which is good, b/c I would write off that site if they made it. RWC did mention that he topped 100 mph with his slap shot at the AHL All Star game once, so there's that. But as players... he's not close on either end of the ice to Chara.

 

[solo16]

As recently as 2 years ago, Ericsson DID suck defensively. Sorry, that jumped into my mind faster than Helm on a breakaway. IMO, E is still not great on the defensive end, but he's still a better defender than offensive threat.



I respect your opinion, and he did put up some decent offensive #'s with the Griffins. Of course, so did Mursak, so that's not always the best barometer to use And I certainly wish he was better on the defensive end, and I'll bet Babs does too, especially this season.

I checked out your link, and I didn't see the Chara comparison. Which is good, b/c I would write off that site if they made it. RWC did mention that he topped 100 mph with his slap shot at the AHL All Star game once, so there's that. But as players... he's not close on either end of the ice to Chara.

I have not seen him projected as Chara that was just something I think is somewhat obvious cause of his size. Chara is not called a shutdown defender. He is just a solid two way defenseman with SIZE. I just do not see Ericsson as a one dementional Volchenkov or Komasarik, Murray type.

 

[Frk It]

Huskins, Kronwall, Quincey, and Lashoff have all blocked more shots this season than Brad Stuart. Ericsson would too if he hadn't missed games due to injury.

Tommy Wingels has more goals than Stamkos and Crosby this season too. See what I did there?

How many of those guys do you see clear the crease? Damien Brunner has more hits than Ericsson this year

 

[Run the Jewels]

Tommy Wingels has more goals than Stamkos and Crosby this season too. See what I did there?

How many of those guys do you see clear the crease? Damien Brunner has more hits than Ericsson this year

Stuart was brutal during the playoffs. If you can't see that then that's fine. Ericsson has missed a couple games due to injury while the guys I mentioned have played fewer games than Stuart. We tend to call that apples to apples when it comes to comparison. And if you honestly believe Tommy Wingels is a better forward than Stamkos and Crosby I honestly have no idea what to say. I greatly prefer to have conversations with people who legitimately want to discuss hockey. The people who talk gibberish tend to get ignored. I simply don't have the time.

My larger point in this thread has been consistent: we need a premier offensive defenseman, one who can generate 50+ points per season. We do not have one at this time. It is a much bigger need than acquiring yet another defensive defensemen, who tend to be a dime a dozen. If worse comes to worse we can always work a trade to acquire Cory Sarich.

 

[Frk It]

Stuart was brutal during the playoffs. If you can't see that then that's fine. Ericsson has missed a couple games due to injury while the guys I mentioned have played fewer games than Stuart. We tend to call that apples to apples when it comes to comparison. And if you honestly believe Tommy Wingels is a better forward than Stamkos and Crosby I honestly have no idea what to say. I greatly prefer to have conversations with people who legitimately want to discuss hockey. The people who talk gibberish tend to get ignored. I simply don't have the time.

My larger point in this thread has been consistent: we need a premier offensive defenseman, one who can generate 50+ points per season. We do not have one at this time. It is a much bigger need than acquiring yet another defensive defensemen, who tend to be a dime a dozen. If worse comes to worse we can always work a trade to acquire Cory Sarich.

All I was trying to say is I don't think stats are a great indicator of anything only 6 games into a season. I agree that I think Stuart was one of our worst D last year. But when we were good having a guy like him was very important.

As soon as we are healthy, Lashoff is back down to GR, and we are back to 4-5 offensive D, with a PK that will be not much better than our PP. Our problem is we have two many borderline #5 guys, and not enough legit top 4 guys. Before this retirement rule came with the CBA, I always was very upset we missed on Ehrhoff. That would have been a 50 pt guy for ya, who can PK and play big minutes to boot. With the new CBA though the length of his contract now makes it look completely different.

I mean I'm really just not thrilled with our current core, I don't think our guys that are supposed to be "defensive D" are great in that regard, I wish we had someone like Brooks Orpik or Girardi. Kronwall is pretty good offensively, and Smith is going to keep getting better. Ideally I'd like to have 3 offensive D, and 3 stay at home type, but that's just me.