Messier overrated?

[Bryce Newman]

As an older Rangers fan, I can tell you as a kid when the Rangers got Messier it was one of the greatest days of my life. There wasn't a player I wanted more on my team at that time, not even Gretzky. Messier was the total package and it went far beyond point production. The dude was a beast who would run over players like a freight train. He came to NY with all the pressure in the world on his shoulders and won the Hart Trophy his first season here, lead the team to the Presidents Trophy and then delivered the Cup 2 years later.

I remember in the 94 playoffs when the Rangers were down in the series 1-zip to the Devils. Messier literally bulldozed over Scott Stevens and knocked him on his keister to open up Game 2, and promptly scored a goal right after. The entire feel of the series turned around right there. THAT is what Messier brought to the table night in and night out, and it's something that can't be measured on the scoresheet.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Nope. He led his teams to cups in 1990 and 1994 as the guy.

 

[SillyRabbit]

Nope. He led his teams to cups in 1990 and 1994 as the guy.

I mean he didn’t win the Conn Smythe either of those seasons so I think calling him “the guy” is debatable.

 

[Stephen]

Top 20-40 forward of all time. His leadership is the most overrated lie to ever exist in hockey. Leaders do not act like he did. There was a reason he was the teacher's pet of the biggest bully ever to coach professional hockey. It's ironic in the Iron Mike thread someone mentioned Brett Hull being stripped of his Captaincy by Keenan for standing up for his teammate. Why did the greatest leader of all time never lose his captaincy under Keenan? Because he never stood up for his teammates under Keenan.

The alternative theory to why Messier didn't lose his captaincy under Keenan is because they were busy winning a Presidents Trophy and Stanley Cup together in 1994... not sure what things were like in Vancouver but I would assume having that prior relationship things would run a bit more smoothly than Hull-Keenan.

 

[Stephen]

I mean he didn’t win the Conn Smythe either of those seasons so I think calling him “the guy” is debatable.

Bill Ranford was the Conn Smythe winner in 1990, so safe to say there wasn't another Oiler forward who was overshadowing Messier. Leetch was all-time on that 1994 run but the Rangers wouldn't have won squat without Messier that year.

 

[LightningStorm]

I find Messier to be properly rated. Most, as I, have him in the same tier as centers like Trottier, Yzerman and Sakic. At their best you could rank those 4 in any order, but Messier comes out career wise due to his longevity and consistency. I found him most similar to Trottier as a player. Dynamic offensive stars who were also great 2 way and physical centers. Trottier was a little better at both ends for their peak, but the longevity gap between them speaks for itself, so Messier is the clear choice career wise.

To me the sign of a player being overrated is when they are frequently compared to players who are clearly better than them. For those who say Messier is overrated, who do you see this with in regards to him? I haven't seen Messier get overrated in this way.

 

[CharlestownChiefsESC]

I mean he didn’t win the Conn Smythe either of those seasons so I think calling him “the guy” is debatable.

Leetch was on another level in 94 but without Messier im not sure Leetch ever gets there.

The alternative theory to why Messier didn't lose his captaincy under Keenan is because they were busy winning a Presidents Trophy and Stanley Cup together in 1994... not sure what things were like in Vancouver but I would assume having that prior relationship things would run a bit more smoothly than Hull-Keenan.

Yes that's partly it, it was also that Messier wanted him there all along. He basically usurped Tom Renney and Pat Quinn after the bad start and told John McCCaw fire Renney and get Keenan, when Keenan got there he said Im the GM too or I don't take the job, so they basically bumped Pat Quinn to president with no real responsibilities.

The reason it didn't work with Hull I believe was 2 things, 1 Hull was still perceived as lazy by some at the time, and 2 Keenan was coach and gm in St. Louis something he wanted in Chicago and NY and didn't get. Even if him and Messier didn't get along you still had Neil Smith as a buffer in NY. Messier in NY actually was a team guy and stood up for his teammates, if you listen to the Tony Amonte interview on Cam and Strick Keenan would just yell at guys and rip them, but Messier basically dictated how the team would play, the thing was all the players bought in but by 94 he was the man there after slowly integrating himself in in 91-92. But after 94 in NY his head got too big.

In Vancouver he just seemed to think that everything was immediately his and his teammates there didn't respond nearly as nicely as NY, many of them said that he just coasted and waited for his people to be brought in one of them being Keenan. Biggest difference here was the players in NY got 2 years with Messier before Keenan, the core in Vancouver had been together for a while and was all of a sudden being torn down by a declining 37 year old who in their mind was not giving 100% on purpose so he could get his way.

 

[NordiquesForeva]

I find Messier to be properly rated. Most, as I, have him in the same tier as centers like Trottier, Yzerman and Sakic. At their best you could rank those 4 in any order, but Messier comes out career wise due to his longevity and consistency. I found him most similar to Trottier as a player. Dynamic offensive stars who were also great 2 way and physical centers. Trottier was a little better at both ends for their peak, but the longevity gap between them speaks for itself, so Messier is the clear choice career wise.

To me the sign of a player being overrated is when they are frequently compared to players who are clearly better than them. For those who say Messier is overrated, who do you see this with in regards to him? I haven't seen Messier get overrated in this way.

Messier is underrated, if anything. He's in a tier above Yzerman, Trottier and Sakic imo, and probably closer to Crosby and Beliveau than he is to SY/BT/JS. A few weeks ago in another thread I had Yzerman => Trottier > Sakic (which I fully stand behind), but thinking back on that late '80s/early '90s era, when both Yzerman and Messier were at their respective peaks, Messier won 2 Harts, was typically seen as the better all-around and more valuable player, and I highly doubt there was a single GM in the NHL that would part ways with Messier in order to get Yzerman. Yzerman was incredible during that timeframe, but there was clear separation between him and Messier in the eye of the hockey world.

Not a knock on SY/BT/JS, but Messier was that good and had such a dominating presence on the ice and such a stellar playoff(*) and international resume at the time that he's in a separate tier above those three players.

Yzerman and Sakic certainly aged much more gracefully than Messier and only enhanced their reputations and accomplishments in the back half of their careers. Trottier too, to a lesser extent. But Messier's time in Vancouver and his second stint in New York shouldn't detract from what he accomplished in the first ~15 years of his career, during which time he was outstanding.

* By my count, Messier has 5 Conn Smythe-level playoff runs, compared to 2 each for Yzerman and Sakic and 3 for Trottier if I'm being a little generous.