Prospect Info: Mattias Norlinder Part 4

Jaynki

Registered User
Feb 3, 2014
5,139
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We need Norlinder more than Harris, always had better offensive skills. I would explore the market for Harris who I think is waiver eligible.
Agree

Maybe we use Harris to pass Armia in a trade?

Harris + Armia to Chicago for future consideration

Harris is nice but he is also 23, capped potential and we should easily overcome his loss. Does not even have a future with us with what we have on LD.
 

26Mats

Registered User
Jun 23, 2018
32,266
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We need Norlinder more than Harris, always had better offensive skills. I would explore the market for Harris who I think is waiver eligible.
When building the team, I think long term. With Matheson, Guhle, Xhekaj, Hutson, Engstrom, Trudeau, and Struble on the left side, do we need either of Norlinder or Harris. If we could use one or both of them in a package, I wouldn't hesitate.
 

Goldenhands

Slaf_The_Great
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Aug 21, 2016
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Agree

Maybe we use Harris to pass Armia in a trade?

Harris + Armia to Chicago for future consideration

Harris is nice but he is also 23, capped potential and we should easily overcome his loss. Does not even have a future with us with what we have on LD.
I dont think he holds much value TBH, Armia I would be surprised if there was any interest, maybe Allen?
 

Goldenhands

Slaf_The_Great
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Aug 21, 2016
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When building the team, I think long term. With Matheson, Guhle, Xhekaj, Hutson, Engstrom, Trudeau, and Struble on the left side, do we need either of Norlinder or Harris. If we could use one or both of them in a package, I wouldn't hesitate.
I agree that both Harris and Norlinder have too many guys over them in the long term future, but right now, who can help the team better? Norlinder for my part and lets say he ends up on our 2nd PP unit and have a pretty decent season, I think you get more value there than playing Harris. In other words, Norlinder might end up as the most valuable asset.
 

26Mats

Registered User
Jun 23, 2018
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I agree that both Harris and Norlinder have too many guys over them in the long term future, but right now, who can help the team better? Norlinder for my part and lets say he ends up on our 2nd PP unit and have a pretty decent season, I think you get more value there than playing Harris. In other words, Norlinder might end up as the most valuable asset.

I haven't seen enough of Norlinder.

But wouldn't you agree Harris is better defensively? On a dcore that has Savard on the first pair and Kovacevic on the 2nd pair, I think Harris makes the 3rd pair more reliable than Norlinder does.

I'd rather keep only one up in the top 6 and send the other to Laval to play big minutes. Norlinder has missed so much hockey and is still learning the game. So for me it's him who goes to Laval.

But MSL may keep him or Barron up and do a rotation.
 

Ezpz

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Apr 16, 2013
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I haven't seen enough of Norlinder.

But wouldn't you agree Harris is better defensively? On a dcore that has Savard on the first pair and Kovacevic on the 2nd pair, I think Harris makes the 3rd pair more reliable than Norlinder does.

I'd rather keep only one up in the top 6 and send the other to Laval to play big minutes. Norlinder has missed so much hockey and is still learning the game. So for me it's him who goes to Laval.

But MSL may keep him or Barron up and do a rotation.
I actually don't think Xhekaj is a lock. He's coming off a shoulder injury and hasn't played well in pre-season in any game. He may end up in the press box or in Laval for a month to adjust back to playing hockey. He was an undrafted player who skipped from the OHL straight to the NHL after all and is waiver exempt.
 

26Mats

Registered User
Jun 23, 2018
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We need Norlinder more than Harris, always had better offensive skills. I would explore the market for Harris who I think is waiver eligible.
Harris isn't waiver eligible...

But, if we take the scenario where Mailloux and Barron are ready, we'll have to trade many dmen (I say 4) between now and next year at this time. So definitely good to start trading as soon as possible.

Would be nice to get Lafreniere for one or two of our young LD's.

I actually don't think Xhekaj is a lock. He's coming off a shoulder injury and hasn't played well in pre-season in any game. He may end up in the press box or in Laval for a month to adjust back to playing hockey. He was an undrafted player who skipped from the OHL straight to the NHL after all and is waiver exempt.
I wouldn't mind seeing a Xhekaj, Harris, Norlinder, Barron rotation. But, I'd rather see the rotation be between bottom pair and Laval, than between the bottom pair and the pressbox.
 

Tyson

Registered User
Mar 1, 2007
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I gotta say that 99% of us had written him off when in reality he needed time on NA rinks to get comfortable. I stated on a few occasions that it became obvious in Laval that he was focusing on his defensive game and rarely joined the rush, now I see why. He just needed time and reps.
A pleasant problem for KH.
 

Ezpz

No mad pls
Apr 16, 2013
14,932
11,093
I gotta say that 99% of us had written him off when in reality he needed time on NA rinks to get comfortable. I stated on a few occasions that it became obvious in Laval that he was focusing on his defensive game and rarely joined the rush, now I see why. He just needed time and reps.
A pleasant problem for KH.
That's the thing, we're not privy to inside organizational information. All we can see is Norlinder playing poorly in Laval and getting shit minutes and extrapolate that Houle doesn't like him and he is struggling to adapt to NA. Reality could be that management asked Norlinder to take that role and work on those things specifically and not to worry about putting up points. Reality could also be that we were right and Norlinder worked his ass off this summer.

Either way it's been a while since we had a prospect redeem themselves after falling off the map completely. I can't think of another example as extreme as Norlinder, who got Lidstrom (obviously a broke man's) comps from the scouts. I guess Tinordi and McCarron are finally opening roster NHLers now in their D+12 and D+9 respectively. Pezzetta I guess went from joke pick and joke ELC signing to NHLer. Even then none of those guys were really hyped except Tinordi.
 
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Gustave

Registered User
Feb 15, 2007
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Can't keep them all. An abundance of riches on D needs to be leveraged sooner rather than later.
Very very true. Only, you have to have the balls to trade the ones that have value. For example, there's no sense in trading Norlinder for what, a 5th rounder?

That's the problem with trading from that strength in numbers position. We can't use them as it is, there's too many of them. It's not a problem though if you sell your best ones, if you are confident you can replace them with the Trudeau's and Norlinder's of the world.

For example, Hugo made a killing with the Romanov trade from that position. I wasn't so keen on it from the get go, didn't like Dach as a traget (how wrong was I!) and it paid off. I'm prepared to see a LD go, whether that's Matheson, even might be Guhle eventually. It sounds crazy now of course, but it's what "pays off" in cases of replacing from within.
 
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salbutera

Registered User
Sep 10, 2019
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That's the thing, we're not privy to inside organizational information. All we can see is Norlinder playing poorly in Laval and getting shit minutes and extrapolate that Houle doesn't like him and he is struggling to adapt to NA. Reality could be that management asked Norlinder to take that role and work on those things specifically and not to worry about putting up points. Reality could also be that we were right and Norlinder worked his ass off this summer.

Either way it's been a while since we had a prospect redeem themselves after falling off the map completely. I can't think of another example as extreme as Norlinder, who got Lidstrom (obviously a broke man's) comps from the scouts. I guess Tinordi and McCarron are finally opening roster NHLers now in their D+12 and D+9 respectively. Pezzetta I guess went from joke pick and joke ELC signing to NHLer. Even then none of those guys were really hyped except Tinordi.
That extrapolation goes even further - JF Houle is a terrible AHL development coach. Based on what exactly?

When the development specialists in the org (Ramage, Boullion etc) & HuGo provide a specific area of focus for Houle to implement on a given player no fan boy/girl will be privy to such info
 
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DramaticGloveSave

Voice of Reason
Apr 17, 2017
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It's not about replacing Matheson, it's about managing Matheson's minutes and using him more on the PK and 5 on 5 and allow someone like Norlinder to get more minutes in a situation that he can develop his confident, use his skill-set and get more comfortable at the NHL level.

Matheson isn't the best PP defenseman anyway, so he can play the 2nd unit for now until Hutson and/or Mailloux come up.
Matheson showed absolute dominance in the ozone yesterday. Maybe a guy like Hutson can unseat him, but Norlinder ain’t that. Maybe he could QB the second unit.
 
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Ezpz

No mad pls
Apr 16, 2013
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That extrapolation goes even further - JF Houle is a terrible AHL development coach. Based on what exactly?

When the development specialists in the org (Ramage, Boullion etc) & HuGo provide a specific area of focus for Houle to implement on a given player no fan boy/girl will be privy to such info
Largely based on the treatment of Norlinder and Mysak. Both looked good in camp this year though so I'm not sure we can criticize Houle. Obviously we like to see prospects light it up but if they're improving and graduating into the NHL it doesn't really matter. It's more concerning if the ice time doesn't go up from year to year when the guys have clearly improved and even look good in NHL camps. Like it will be a huge issue if Mysak is only getting fourth line minutes for the second year in a row.

I think Houle dug his own hole in this case as well, as he's directly criticized a few prospects in the media. Even if it's the media changing the narrative, he should know better than to say something like Mysak or Mesar don't offer much or have lots to work on. Marty is obviously the media master manipulator so maybe he could develop Houle's skills.

It also doesn't help that Houle was a nepobaby hire from Bergevin's summer of "destroy the Habs, completely f*** their future cap space and refuse extension". And that he was with Edmonton's AHL team as an assistant for 6 years and zero non-depth NHLers came out of there. And that he was a head coach in the Q for 5 years and no notable NHLers came out of any of the teams he coaches, pretty much only Cedric Paquette. And that he was an NCAA assistant for 7 years at Clarkson where they put out an impressive 0 NHLers.

I think it's also notable that of the guys that Laval graduated, most had played under Bouchard (Ylonen, RHP) previously as well. Norlinder would be the first solely Houle graduate. So statistically speaking, Houle has never solely developed an NHLer except Paquette now going into his 20th year of coaching. So do we credit the organizational structure for the improvement of the prospects or do we credit Houle who has zero background or success in development? It is an interesting debate, because I think that it is a combination of both and Houle has likely improved tremendously from actually getting guidance from management. It's likely he had less input in previous roles and was focused only on winning games since the NCAA isn't a development league, he didn't coach big market Q teams, and Edmonton might be the only team that drafts worse than us (can't even make conference finals after picking 1st overall 4 times, getting two generational players and a bunch of other top 10 picks).

At the same time, management went out of their way not to re-sign most of his six most used players last year, which indicates they weren't happy with how much he over relied on vets. You can clearly see he gives players from Quebec more icetime. Leskinen for example was a #1 AHL dman under Bouchard and looked NHL ready, but under Houle was getting garbage minutes while Beaudin, who couldn't really crack it with Chicago's farm team, came in and got the best minutes with the best zone starts. Madison Bowey also got less minutes despite being a #1 AHL dman in other places and only a year removed from NHL games. This is perfectly acceptable to me for all the AHL vets to be Quebecois. Why do we even need non-Quebecois vets if we're not even developing them into NHLers? It's more unacceptable to see a guy like Mysak get zero minutes as a recent second rounder.

I don't really care if PQ guys get more ice time, Laval is there to make money on top of developing players. I'd rather that sort of thing happen in Laval than Montreal. Obviously this year is the real test for Houle, since he largely has been without notable forward prospects in his first two years and lost most of his D prospects he was supposed to get last year because we were so injured with the big club. He went into the season expecting Xhekaj, Harris, Barron and probably even Guhle for stretches and ended up with only 25 games of Barron. Trudeau and Simoneau ended up with by far the most ice time of the prospects.

Anyways, there are good arguments against Houle and there are good arguments for Houle in Laval specifically. The guys coming out of Laval have looked NHL ready, but at the same time there is no historical argument to support Houle being good at development. It's up to each person to believe whether it's Houle doing well with the Rocket or the organization itself providing the tools for success. Like I said before, I think it's a mix of both. Laval is much closer to Montreal than St. John's or Hamilton were, so I think the staff of the big club are a lot more involved than they used to be. I think that's a big reason why the Marlies have always been good at developing guys for the Leafs and the Moose for the Jets. I also think Houle has guidance for the first time (as well as direct oversight being so close to Montreal) in his career as most organizations are pretty hands off for AHL development and the Q is obviously not a farm league.

We won't know for sure until he's fired and people leak stuff 3-4 years after that.
 
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26Mats

Registered User
Jun 23, 2018
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I gotta say that 99% of us had written him off when in reality he needed time on NA rinks to get comfortable. I stated on a few occasions that it became obvious in Laval that he was focusing on his defensive game and rarely joined the rush, now I see why. He just needed time and reps.
A pleasant problem for KH.
And I think it's a win-win now for him. If he makes the team, great. If he gets sent down, he should get 20 minutes a game and hone his game even more with all that ice time.
 
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salbutera

Registered User
Sep 10, 2019
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And I think it's a win-win now for him. If he makes the team, great. If he gets sent down, he should get 20 minutes a game and hone his game even more with all that ice time.
He likely won’t though… if Norlinder’s sent down it’ll be to focus on specific deficiencies the org wants addressed before bringing him up
 

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