Matthews + Marner vs Barzal + Laine

[BruinLVGA]

You'll be seeing plenty of them first hand

 

[BruinLVGA]

So you had Barzal having this kind of rookie year? Same with Josh Bailey? William Karlsson over there on the Knights...the fact is scoring is up this year compared to previous years. No guarantee that continues or doesn't regress, look how many guys are close to or over PPG this year compared to last.

This also applies to Leafs players. They're not somehow immune to all this...

 

[bionic]

Matthews and Marner both drive the line. They make whoever is playing with them better. I cho Cho Cho choose the leafs duo.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Why they are both defensively responsible players.



Yes he is. And so does Barzal who is already the Isles best 2 way center.

That isn't really saying much considering Tavares has been awful this year defensively, Cizikas is better defensively but doesn't provide enough offense to be considered "two-way", and their 3C has been a revolving door of crap or youngsters.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

That isn't really saying much considering Tavares has been awful this year defensively, Cizikas is better defensively but doesn't provide enough offense to be considered "two-way", and their 3C has been a revolving door of crap or youngsters.

Barzal is one of only 3 Islanders that are 50%+ in possession metrics consistently all season. 2nd actually right now at 52.75% which is better than Matthews possession metrics at 49.73% despite being on a poorer possession team.

I don't think one can downplay this given Barzal's line is now looked upon as the Isles best 2 way line. Weight does not shelter them, and team often game plan against them by matching their best players against Barzal. That's saying something to me.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Barzal is one of only 3 Islanders that are 50%+ in possession metrics consistently all season. 2nd actually right now at 52.75% which is better than Matthews possession metrics at 49.73% despite being on a poorer possession team.

I don't think one can downplay this given Barzal's line is now looked upon as the Isles best 2 way line. Weight does not shelter them, and team often game plan against them by matching their best players against Barzal. That's saying something to me.

Possession metrics do not equal defensive ability, though.

From my own favorite team, Crosby's been really sloppy defensively this season, yet still has both CF% and FF% above 55% this year. Phil Kessel often gets criticized for his defense, yet is sporting 51.9% and 52.3% CF% and FF%, respectively. Heck, Conor Sheary, someone who is one of the worst defensive players I've seen recently, has CF% and FF% above 52% the past two seasons. No one will ever describe him as being even average defensively.

It's more a measure of how a player tips the ice, rather than any actual commentary on a player's defensive ability.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Possession metrics do not equal defensive ability, though.

From my own favorite team, Crosby's been really sloppy defensively this season, yet still has both CF% and FF% above 55% this year. Phil Kessel often gets criticized for his defense, yet is sporting 51.9% and 52.3% CF% and FF%, respectively. Heck, Conor Sheary, someone who is one of the worst defensive players I've seen recently, has CF% and FF% above 52% the past two seasons. No one will ever describe him as being even average defensively.

It's more a measure of how a player tips the ice, rather than any actual commentary on a player's defensive ability.

It is a layer of information that cannot be dismissed, but it is not the only one. At worst one can say anything bad about Barzal's defensive ability is he over stickhandles the puck. But this happens for all creative and skilled players. But if one watched Barzal this season, he plays 200 ft of ice. He often is the player carrying the puck out of his own zone. He hustles back, Pacioretty called him the toughest match up. The possession part just means teams are not possessing the puck when he is on the ice, a team cannot score against you if they do not have the puck. Regardless this is a 20 year old rookie with better possession metrics than Matthews has on a worse defensive team. Bad goalie and Defence are to blame IMO. He is hardly a finished product, I don't know one 20 year old center that is, but what he does show is very promising qualities to be known as one of the games better 2 way centers with more maturity.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

It is a layer of information that cannot be dismissed, but it is not the only one. At worst one can say anything bad about Barzal's defensive ability is he over stickhandles the puck. But this happens for all creative and skilled players. But if one watched Barzal this season, he plays 200 ft of ice. He often is the player carrying the puck out of his own zone. He hustles back, Pacioretty called him the toughest match up. The possession part just means teams are not possessing the puck when he is on the ice, a team cannot score against you if they do not have the puck. Regardless this is a 20 year old rookie with better possession metrics than Matthews does on a worse defensive team. Bad goalie and Defence are to blame IMO. He is hardly a finished product, I don't know one 20 year old center that is, but what he does show is very promising qualities to be know as one of the games better 2 way centers with more maturity.

I'm not even arguing Barzal isn't decent defensively or that he's awful defensively. I'm just saying that using his FF% as proof that he's good defensively is flawed because that's not what that stat measures. You'd have to delve deeper into the advanced metrics and maybe focus more on just the "Corsi against" or "Fenwick against" portions to isolate their work in the defensive end from their work in the offensive end.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Did the NYI make a trade for Laine?

If not, this poll is really stupid.

I didn't know you couldn't do polls of players from different teams. Thanks for the guidance.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I'm not even arguing Barzal isn't decent defensively or that he's awful defensively. I'm just saying that using his FF% as proof that he's good defensively is flawed because that's not what that stat measures. You'd have to delve deeper into the advanced metrics and maybe focus more on just the "Corsi against" or "Fenwick against" portions to isolate their work in the defensive end from their work in the offensive end.

I would agree with this premise. Possession metrics are just an added layer of information. But not the entire story.

 

[glue]

Interesting thread, but I do think Marner is getting massively underrated, this should be a lot closer then 70-30.

IMO its Matthews > Laine > Barzal > Marner, but only by a hair in each case, so definitely an interesting debate, but we should probably revisit this thread in a year or 2. By then it will likely be more apparent. Marner has started to improve his shooting and that I think is going to make him increasingly more dangerous as his passing and vision might be better then any of the other 3 guys.

 

[wingnutks]

I'm not even arguing Barzal isn't decent defensively or that he's awful defensively. I'm just saying that using his FF% as proof that he's good defensively is flawed because that's not what that stat measures. You'd have to delve deeper into the advanced metrics and maybe focus more on just the "Corsi against" or "Fenwick against" portions to isolate their work in the defensive end from their work in the offensive end.

Barzal is also the only Isles center to have a GF/60 higher than their GA/60 at even strength

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Barzal is also the only Isles center to have a GF/60 higher than their GA/60 at even strength

But that could simply indicate that Barzal simply creates so much offense. Without proper context (ie. where he ranks league-wide in GA), it doesn't tell you whether he's just amazing at creating offense to compensate for average defense, or whether he's actually good defensively.

It's kind of like raw +/-. A player can be a +10, but that doesn't mean he's actually good defensively just because his team has scored 10 more goals when he's on the ice than they've give up. It could simply mean he's a wizard offensively.

 

[wingnutks]

But that could simply indicate that Barzal simply creates so much offense. Without proper context (ie. where he ranks league-wide in GA), it doesn't tell you whether he's just amazing at creating offense to compensate for average defense, or whether he's actually good defensively.

It's kind of like raw +/-. A player can be a +10, but that doesn't mean he's actually good defensively just because his team has scored 10 more goals when he's on the ice than they've give up. It could simply mean he's a wizard offensively.

Well his GA/60 is also better than our "defensive" center, Cizikas. What I see out of Barzal is a average center defensively in his own zone, and a well above average center defensively in the neutral and offensive zone.

 

[The List Of Jericho]

This also applies to Leafs players. They're not somehow immune to all this...

And who’s saying the Leaf players aren’t going to regress? This year Nylander has while Marner hasn’t. Matthews looked about the same with injuries hindering him

 

[hockeyguy1967]

Laine=Barzal>Matthews>>Marner.

Easy poll. Maybe next year Matthews will not have three different injuries including a concussion and jump back into the top tier but for now he is very injury prone.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Marner would get hurt blocking shots from Laine.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Marner would get hurt blocking shots from Laine.

I would say Marner's bigger challenge is starting the season on time. Consistency for the entire season is key for him.

 

[BruinLVGA]

And who’s saying the Leaf players aren’t going to regress? This year Nylander has while Marner hasn’t. Matthews looked about the same with injuries hindering him

In preseason, pretty much the vast majority of Leafs fans considered a heresy to think any of them could regress...

 

[bionic]

I would say Marner's bigger challenge is starting the season on time. Consistency for the entire season is key for him.

60 plus points in each of his first two years in the league. Seems consistent to me.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I would say Marner's bigger challenge is starting the season on time. Consistency for the entire season is key for him.

could say the same about Laine tbh

 

[Cotton]

I would agree with this premise. Possession metrics are just an added layer of information. But not the entire story.

This kinda explain a lot, you don’t know who’s a good two-way player because you thought possession stats alone told the whole story.

Ya blew it.

 

[Stephen]

That is not true.

Oh, every fanbase doesn't have homer fans? I know the Bruins have at least one, he's your play by play guy.

 

[Stephen]

If it isn't visually convincing to you who has the better shot.

By "visually convincing" metrics that you yourself have invented, Matthews is quite a bit better than Laine in every aspect of the sport aside from a one time shot from the point or faceoff circle, because Matthews is usually carrying the puck to make the play as opposed to waiting for someone else to do all the dirty work...

 

[BruinLVGA]

Oh, every fanbase doesn't have homer fans? I know the Bruins have at least one, he's your play by play guy.

How you turned what I said into what you said, it's a mystery...