Matthews+Marner+Point vs Rantanen+Laine+Kane

[Hint1k]

Then why doesn't the Richard winner often not win the Ted Lindsay or the Hart?

Why do people give trophies to loosers in general? Why do we need Olympic silver medal for example?

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Why do people give trophies to loosers in general? Why do we need Olympic silver medal for example?

Mike Bossy is the greatest hockey player ever, most goals per game in the history of the NHL. On second thought, it might be better to just look at the list of all time goals leaders as it lists all the best players in the correct order.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

What do the wicked advanced stats tell me?
They are all 4th liners.

 

[Spazkat]

Maybe the 2nd option should have a C?

If they did that the grouping with the Leafs players might not win. Trade out Kane with MacKinnon and it more balanced, but probably won't end up with the final vote in favor of what they were fishing for

 

[JoVel]

Mike Bossy is the greatest hockey player ever, most goals per game in the history of the NHL. On second thought, it might be better to just look at the list of all time goals leaders as it lists all the best players in the correct order.

This just in: Cedric Paquette has been better than Mitch Marner this season.

 

[Taluss]

If they did that the grouping with the Leafs players might not win. Trade out Kane with MacKinnon and it more balanced, but probably won't end up with the final vote in favor of what they were fishing for

I’d definitely switch my vote If Mack was in instead of Kane

 

[strictlyrandy]

Biased poll. Skews results.

 

[Hostile Offer]

Gets 5v5 primary points at a low-mid end first line rate despite having MacKinnon, doesn’t really drive possession, scoring rate falls off when away from mackinnon

Sample size for MacKinnon and Rantanen away from each other this year is so small there's really no point in looking at it from that perspective.

 

[jonlin]

Sample size for MacKinnon and Rantanen away from each other this year is so small there's really no point in looking at it from that perspective.

Dominic tries his best to downplay Rantanen. If it were for only 1 second apart, Dominic uses that statistic.

 

[EhlersChin]

Laine is the odd man out here. Just like 55 and El Capitan I'd imagine Rantanen and Kane would prefer a different linemate than Laine.

 

[jonlin]

Laine is the odd man out here. Just like 55 and El Capitan I'd imagine Rantanen and Kane would prefer a different linemate than Laine.

I actually agree here.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

What kind of sample sizes are we looking at here?

Since the start of last season p sure

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Since the start of last season p sure

That doesn’t answer the question though. They could’ve played 2 minutes or 2 thousand minutes in that time frame. Let’s take a look at the real answer, along with something else to compare it to.

1412 mins - Rantanen and MacKinnon - 59.59% GF
209 mins - MacKinnon without Rantanen - 55% GF
235 mins - Rantanen without MacKinnon - 62.5% GF

Care to explain just why Rantanen’s GF% improves when he is away from MacKinnon, while MacKinnon’s declines away from Rantanen?

Is it possible that, just as his P/60 goes through a significant decline and he becomes a “2nd or 3rd liner at best”, his defensive ability magically improves to Selke caliber, to the point where his team allows all of 3 f***ing goals in 235 minutes of 5V5 play?

Or is it also possible, and perhaps far more likely, that you are looking at a sample size that is too small and wonky for us to draw conclusions from the goals from? (Wonky in that, a lot of these minutes are played in shifts where one of the two made a line change before or after the other.)

I understand that you like advanced stats, but you are far too new to them to start drawing conclusions like the ones that you have been. The people who actually understand these metrics and use them to construct defend good arguments are those who have a better understanding of the metrics, consider the context surrounding these situations, and go from there. There are actual statisticians employed by NHL teams who have a much, much better understanding of these metrics than you do, and not one of them would take Ondrej Kase over Mikko Rantanen.

 

[CptPicard]

2 centers and 3 wingers in one line.. not a clever poll tbh

 

[VoluntaryDom]

That doesn’t answer the question though. They could’ve played 2 minutes or 2 thousand minutes in that time frame. Let’s take a look at the real answer, along with something else to compare it to.

1412 mins - Rantanen and MacKinnon - 59.59% GF
209 mins - MacKinnon without Rantanen - 55% GF
235 mins - Rantanen without MacKinnon - 62.5% GF

Care to explain just why Rantanen’s GF% improves when he is away from MacKinnon, while MacKinnon’s declines away from Rantanen?

Is it possible that, just as his P/60 goes through a significant decline and he becomes a “2nd or 3rd liner at best”, his defensive ability magically improves to Selke caliber, to the point where his team allows all of 3 ****ing goals in 235 minutes of 5V5 play?

Or is it also possible, and perhaps far more likely, that you are looking at a sample size that is too small and wonky for us to draw conclusions from the goals from? (Wonky in that, a lot of these minutes are played in shifts where one of the two made a line change before or after the other.)

I understand that you like advanced stats, but you are far too new to them to start drawing conclusions like the ones that you have been. The people who actually understand these metrics and use them to construct defend good arguments are those who have a better understanding of the metrics, consider the context surrounding these situations, and go from there. There are actual statisticians employed by NHL teams who have a much, much better understanding of these metrics than you do, and not one of them would take Ondrej Kase over Mikko Rantanen.

Yeah the sample is only a few hundred minutes apart. But the most interesting thing about their minutes apart is that Rantanen’s secondary assists he mooches all but disappear away from MacKinnon, supporting the notion that he is benefiting from touching the puck early in plays that MacKinnon drives. Also not sure if you read sportsnet but Berkshire recently made an article where he looked at chance generating plays and Rantanen is just above league average while MacKinnon blows him out of the water in individual+teammate chance generating plays. It’s obviously an imperfect science but it supports the idea that MacKinnon is the clear offense driver of the line. And if you put much credence into the credit allocation of Micah Blake mccurdy’s shot maps (I generally don’t but their results are at least interesting), Rantanen is also far from being the defensive driver on the line. That being Landeskog. I generally don’t use those as he doesn’t really make clear how he allocated credit but they aren’t a good look for Mikko. They are at the very least interesting. My next post will send the items I’m describing in this one.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

 

[Janne Niinimaa]

Replace Kane with MacKinnon and I'd vote for the Central.

Matthews - Point - Marner
vs
Rantanen - MacKinnon - Laine

At least give Central a centre.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

Replace Kane with MacKinnon and I'd vote for the Central.

Matthews - Point - Marner
vs
Rantanen - MacKinnon - Laine

At least give Central a centre.

Matthews>MacKinnon
Point>Laine
Marner>Rantanen

MacKinnon is a lot better than kane anyway

 

[Janne Niinimaa]

Matthews>MacKinnon
Point>Laine
Marner>Rantanen

MacKinnon is a lot better than kane anyway

All of that is debatable. But you can prefer the Atlantic players.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

All of that is debatable. But you can prefer the Atlantic players.

That’s true, there’s a reason there’s no consensus on this site