News Article: Mats Sundin on Matthews, Leafs and Leadership

[meefer]

Was Mike Gartner a dominate forward? He did have 700 goals, it speaks to your dishonesty as if career totals are the whole story. What good are game winning goals in meaningless seasons of missed playoffs? Do we give Steve Thomas a statue for have so many game winning goals? If you decontexualize Mats numbers you can call him great but that is manipulative and lazy and it's the lazy case of 'look look at his numbers' I'm well aware of his numbers. So yes, I have an attitude when subjected to endless post of no substance, whose best effort is to tell me numbers I already know.

I enjoyed his Leaf career just fine until he exposed himself at the end of his tenure. I always supported the Leafs moving on from him in the cap era, not that it matters, I'm not obligated to fawn for Mats, my argue isn't 'you should hate Mats', my argument that he was bad for the organization and he wasn't a 1c on a contending team, he wasn't a franchise player on a winning franchise. He was Phil Kessel. Phil Kessel era = Mats era.

Now that we've established that you'll always love him and I'm not, can we discuss the matter?

It's this bs admiration of Mats that put him in the top 100 when a Gilmour (see if you address your flawed reasoning here isn't of calling me a Gilmour fanboy) who is what 18th in all time scoring and 8th all time in playoff scoring gets snubbed. Where is his statue? Gilmour wasn't a 1C for the majority of his career. I respect that he and the Leafs both moved on when he began to regress.

Again, see if you can follow, Mats wasn't a 1c ON A CONTENDER, you up to speed yet or must I burn another strawman?


More ducking, Mats fanboys in a Mats thread. The point of a message board isn't indulge uniform opinions

*Gartner was a winger, not a C. Could we stay on track here?
*My comments didn't deal with Gartner, I wasn't dishonest in anything I stated, how then can I be dishonest or are you simply trying to color your argument favorably while making false accusations against my points.
*You're the only one who is stating that any season of missed playoffs is meaningless. My counter is that all seasons count when considering how a player is looked after his career is over.
*Decontextualize: to remove from a context. How do you suggest something is lazy and manipulative when the very context of the game, when examining a player, is largely based on the contributions said player makes to the manner and successes in which the game is played?
*An effort which you fail to respect given your attitude.
*This desire to frame the issue based on some mystical 'Contender' status team. Would you kindly define what to you is a Contender? And, is this a definition that is specific to the NHL...no World Cup, Olympic teams need apply? Just for future reference, so that we can carry on this discussion, you know.
*Is it your opinion that the determination of a player's overall 'value', as it seems we're quantifying here, is based solely on his contributions to the team, or does the team have some impact on the valuation of the player? You've mentioned Mats and Phil as both having 'less' than the qualities required to be considered 'more' because the teams they played on were not Contenders. Are you suggesting that the Leaf teams, specifically Mats' teams, but feel free to include Phil's teams, were of Contender status and were held back by their best players? Not putting words in your mouth, but I'm suggesting that you are coming across as believing this interpretation. I would then offer that I don't agree with this interpretation. I believe Mats had an average - at best - team to work with and largely due to his enormous efforts, helped the team to a modicum of success over the years and deserves the accolades for both his personal and team successes which were largely, IMO, due to his quality play. Phil, had a worse team and more character issues.

 

[shortfuze]

Opinions are neither right or wrong, arguments are, I'm yet to read a cogent argument, at best I've read some statistics I'm already well aware of and some half baked tautology that 'hith numbies are tho good soh heth the bestest'

As I've already said, Mats wasn't the franchise player in the Quinn Era, Cujo and Eddy were. It was a team that lived and died on goaltending. Shallow depth? Poor Mats only had Moginly, Owen Nolan, Gary Roberts, Steve Thomas, Nik Antropov, Tucker, Renberg, Corson with Joe Neiuwendyk and Reichel, Francis to play with over those years, boo hoo. That's not a lack of depth, it's a lack of franchise talent, luckily the franchise talent was in goal. So you're lying about the Quinn Era contention. Mats was a passenger and the Leafs didn't miss a beat in the playoffs when Mats broke his wrist.

Kessel finished top five in league scoring as a Leafs, did Mats ever do that? The Kessel years perfectly mirror Sundin's cap era Muskoka Five year, you see when MSLE had their spending capped, Mats got exposed. They couldn't buy forward depth (like they could in the contending years you brought up) so Mats was shown to be not a capable franchise player, An elite 1C.

Kessel was more productive and made the playoffs in the cap NHL, you can't deny the fact that Mats didn't even do that, the Leafs moved on from Kessel like they should have Mats. And in his proper place, Kessel two championships and counting. Kessel lead the playoffs in scoring, an achieve beyond anything Mats ever did.

Mats absolutely was the franchise player.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

Kessel finished top five in league scoring as a Leafs, did Mats ever do that?

Actually, Mats finished 4th in 2001-02, whereas Kessel never did as he finished 6th (twice).

But don't let facts get in the way of your obscure viewpoints.

 

[Nooodles]

I can see the thread around 2022 where some random "fan" will complain about Matthews and calling him the worst captain ever because he lifted the cup with only his left hand and how Toews was 10x the player than Matthews because he did it with both hands.
This thread is ridiculous. Leafs fans are definitely the worst sometimes.

 

[LondonKendrick]

I can see the thread around 2022 where some random "fan" will complain about Matthews and calling him the worst captain ever because he lifted the cup with only his left hand and how Toews was 10x the player than Matthews because he did it with both hands.
This thread is ridiculous. Leafs fans are definitely the worst sometimes.

If Auston doesn't win a championship with the Leafs will you be disappointed?

Before this is taken out of context, Auston is in another tier than Mats (sorry to repeat but have to baby people in this thread)

 

[LondonKendrick]

Actually, Mats finished 4th in 2001-02, whereas Kessel never did as he finished 6th (twice).

But don't let facts get in the way of your obscure viewpoints.

My bad, so he did once like Kessel, that doesn't separate him.

 

[LondonKendrick]

Mats absolutely was the franchise player.

He wasn't more impactful than Cujo or Belfour, that is ridiculous, the evidence is how the team sucked before and after they left and Mats stayed and they team wasn't hurt by Sundin missing the majority of the playoffs in their deepest run during the Quinn era.

Not that you can respond to that criticism...

 

[Mr Hockey]

Sundin in the top 3 greatest Leafs ever, imo

 

[LondonKendrick]

Mats absolutely was the franchise player.

The point was Gartner's career totals weren't a reflection of dominance but rather of being consistently above average. The same can be said of Mats, it wasn't a comment on positional play. I agree that Mats was better than Gartner but he this bs of calling Mats in the elite tier of his generation is silly. So the criticism stands, position has nothing to do with it.

Seasons are meaningful if a team is moving is a productive direction. I'm criticizing Mats for not being able to move the team in a positive direction so he should have moved on. The Leafs were an abysmal failure with him as the centerpiece and they couldn't buy their way out of that reality in the cap era like they could in the Quinn Era. So if you're not tanking while you're trading picks you better make the playoffs or the season is meaningless. The Leafs were stuck in limbo with no hope of getting better under the banner 'Mats deserves a championship'. So again this isn't a response to the criticism being made.

The context of the argument is that Mats was counter productive for the Leafs developing team. If you look at the Mats years in the cap era the Leafs were routinely in the bottom five of worst franchises in sports each year on ESPN's list. It was a miserable culture. Their should have been a rebuild. It's just like the Kessel era, should have moved on from Mats. Mats like Kessel wasn't individually good enough to change that culture.

Contender status? No, it about building a team, again I'll ask if the Leafs kept Kessel, and traded the picks that being Nylander and Marner for scrubs is that good practice? It about developing into a contender. I'm only concerned with Mats Leaf career which is insanely overrated. It amounted to a completely dysfunctional team and culture.

You seem caught up on the contender label, Leafs were a dark horse in the Quinn Era on a the best team money could buy with franchise player level goaltending, so that was the peak of the Sundin years. My evaluation of Kessel and Sundin are that they are great talents that could/can thrive when they are not miscast as the franchise player. Hence Phil Kessel has won two cups. If you're in a situation where they are your best player it's time to move on from them.

 

[Nooodles]

Before this is taken out of context, Auston is in another tier than Mats (sorry to repeat but have to baby people in this thread)

Pardon me but it seems like you are the only baby here told by the grown ups to appreciate your older toys that brought so much happiness to your life. Yet you keep whining and shouting it didn't mean anything to you.

It's alright though. Not everyone can appreciate good things in life.

 

[LondonKendrick]

Pardon me but it seems like you are the only baby here told by the grown ups to appreciate your older toys that brought so much happiness to your life. Yet you keep whining and shouting it didn't mean anything to you.

It's alright though. Not everyone can appreciate good things in life.

So another vapid personal shot, you're welcome to discuss the issue... hack

 

[Gallagbi]

So another vapid personal shot, you're welcome to discuss the issue... hack

Tough to complain about attacks when calling others babies.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The point was Gartner's career totals weren't a reflection of dominance but rather of being consistently above average. The same can be said of Mats, it wasn't a comment on positional play. I agree that Mats was better than Gartner but he this bs of calling Mats in the elite tier of his generation is silly. So the criticism stands, position has nothing to do with it.

Seasons are meaningful if a team is moving is a productive direction. I'm criticizing Mats for not being able to move the team in a positive direction so he should have moved on. The Leafs were an abysmal failure with him as the centerpiece and they couldn't buy their way out of that reality in the cap era like they could in the Quinn Era. So if you're not tanking while you're trading picks you better make the playoffs or the season is meaningless. The Leafs were stuck in limbo with no hope of getting better under the banner 'Mats deserves a championship'. So again this isn't a response to the criticism being made.

The context of the argument is that Mats was counter productive for the Leafs developing team. If you look at the Mats years in the cap era the Leafs were routinely in the bottom five of worst franchises in sports each year on ESPN's list. It was a miserable culture. Their should have been a rebuild. It's just like the Kessel era, should have moved on from Mats. Mats like Kessel wasn't individually good enough to change that culture.

Contender status? No, it about building a team, again I'll ask if the Leafs kept Kessel, and traded the picks that being Nylander and Marner for scrubs is that good practice? It about developing into a contender. I'm only concerned with Mats Leaf career which is insanely overrated. It amounted to a completely dysfunctional team and culture.

You seem caught up on the contender label, Leafs were a dark horse in the Quinn Era on a the best team money could buy with franchise player level goaltending, so that was the peak of the Sundin years. My evaluation of Kessel and Sundin are that they are great talents that could/can thrive when they are not miscast as the franchise player. Hence Phil Kessel has won two cups. If you're in a situation where they are your best player it's time to move on from them.

Where should he have "moved on" to, the NBA?

 

[LondonKendrick]

Where should he have "moved on" to, the NBA?

Was Kessel traded to the NBA?

Some deep thinkers in this thread...

 

[meefer]

On A CONTENDING TEAM

If anyone can sack up and actually address the criticism, it's funny how you have to duck the argument but I'm the idiot? Cowards gunna coware

As you failed to answer my questions from my last post, I'll ask again based on this quote, what do you consider to be a Contending team? Furthermore, what is required for a team to be a Contender? Is it simply a #1 C or are other components required?

You asked for discussion, I'm trying, where are you?

 

[Nooodles]

So another vapid personal shot, you're welcome to discuss the issue... hack

What issue? That you hate Mats Sundin, one of the greatest Leafs ever? That issue I can't really discuss.

As the other poster said, you are the one who called us babies...can't even keep up with your own words.

 

[LondonKendrick]

As you failed to answer my questions from my last post, I'll ask again based on this quote, what do you consider to be a Contending team? Furthermore, what is required for a team to be a Contender? Is it simply a #1 C or are other components required?

You asked for discussion, I'm trying, where are you?

I literally responded to your post point by point, a luxury no one could afford myself.

There isn't one way to be a contender. I would say having a truly elite 1C would be good start. Franchise talent.

A contending team is a team that you expect to have a chance of winning the cup each year. And at the very very very least, makes the playoffs.

What issue? That you hate Mats Sundin, one of the greatest Leafs ever? That issue I can't really discuss.

As the other poster said, you are the one who called us babies...can't even keep up with your own words.

Because you frame this as hate/love, I've pointed out why Sundin is basically the Kessel the Leafs didn't trade and criticism how he held the organization back.

All you and pretty much every other poster has done is taken offense. No wonder you get fixated on the word baby, I'd rather discuss the criticism and not your feels. From here on out anyone that ignores the criticism in favor of personal attacks is just being put on the ignore list. We'll see what choice you make.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Actually, Mats finished 4th in 2001-02, whereas Kessel never did as he finished 6th (twice).

But don't let facts get in the way of your obscure viewpoints.

Lol good catch. His hatred for Sundin blinds him even to solid facts.

 

[meefer]

I literally responded to your post point by point, a luxury no one could afford myself.

There isn't one way to be a contender. I would say having a truly elite 1C would be good start. Franchise talent.

A contending team is a team that you expect to have a chance of winning the cup each year. And at the very very very least, makes the playoffs.

*I suggest you re-read post #276

*Player A: 17 seasons/8 playoff appearances = .470 playoff appearance rate
Player B: 18 seasons/10 playoff appearances = .555 playoff appearance rate
Player C: 19 seasons/9 playoff appearances = .473 playoff appearance rate

In order: Mario Lemieux, Mats Sundin, Marcel Dionne. 2 Cups in 54 seasons...it ain't easy, regardless of who any one player is.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Greatest centers of Sundin’s generation (within 5 years of Mats):

Sakic
Forsberg
Lindros
Fedorov
Sundin
Modano

Greatest centers of Sundin’s time in the NHL (no particular order):

Gretzky
Lemieux
Yzerman
Messier
Oates
Lafontaine
Gilmour
Francis
Sakic
Forsberg
Lindros
Fedorov
Sundin
Modano
Datsyuk
Zetterberg
Thornton
Crosby
Malkin

All hall of famers. Creme de la creme centers of the NHL over basically all of modern NHL history. Really puts in perspective how special a player Mats was.

 

[LondonKendrick]

*I suggest you re-read post #276

*Player A: 17 seasons/8 playoff appearances = .470 playoff appearance rate
Player B: 18 seasons/10 playoff appearances = .555 playoff appearance rate
Player C: 19 seasons/9 playoff appearances = .473 playoff appearance rate

In order: Mario Lemieux, Mats Sundin, Marcel Dionne. 2 Cups in 54 seasons...it ain't easy, regardless of who any one player is.

You're using a micro statistic against a criticism of a culture, a place in line up of a contending team and his selfishness of not waiving his NTC?

How is playoff appearance rate determine a players impact? How was Mats playoff points against those two btw?

I'm polite to I'll bite, Mario was the guy in every playoff run, Marcel was the guy on his team, Mats wasn't in the playoffs useless he was playing behind Sakic, carried by Cujo/Belfour, or second line with the twins.

Look he was a really good player, he wasn't in that top tier. You're romanticizing his legacy? What is Mats' legacy in your eyes? It's Muskoka Five in my eyes.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

You're using a micro statistic against a criticism of a culture, a place in line up of a contending team and his selfishness of not waiving his NTC?

How is playoff appearance rate determine a players impact? How was Mats playoff points against those two btw?

I'm polite to I'll bite, Mario was the guy in every playoff run, Marcel was the guy on his team, Mats wasn't in the playoffs useless he was playing behind Sakic, carried by Cujo/Belfour, or second line with the twins.

Look he was a really good player, he wasn't in that top tier. You're romanticizing his legacy? What is Mats' legacy in your eyes? It's Muskoka Five in my eyes.

That's because you're clearly biased with an ax to grind. Give it up Sundin was a franchise center who currently sits 27th on the NHL all time point list and 22nd for goals.

He is absolutely elite and what is why he was a first ballot hall of famer and his number was retired. No one is retiring Cujo or Belfour's number.

 

[LondonKendrick]

That's because you're clearly biased with an ax to grind. Give it up Sundin was a franchise center who currently sits 27th on the NHL all time point list and 22nd for goals.

He is absolutely elite and what is why he was a first ballot hall of famer and his number was retired. No one is retiring Cujo or Belfour's number.

Who isn't bias?

You want to talk about pageantry when the fact is Mats couldn't lead a team to the playoffs without Cujo or Beflour.

You can't acknowledge the fact that when Mats broke his wrist and nearly missed every game that playoff, Leafs didn't miss him and made the EFC.

Two facts that until you address, I won't respect your opinion.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Who isn't bias?

You want to talk about pageantry when the fact is Mats couldn't lead a team to the playoffs without Cujo or Beflour.

You can't acknowledge the fact that when Mats broke his wrist and nearly missed every game that playoff, Leafs didn't miss him and made the EFC.

Two facts that until you address, I won't respect your opinion.

Literally almost no one respects yours on this topic, I’m not too worried if you don’t respect mine.

Enjoy being wrong, have the last word or don’t makes little difference to me.

 

[LondonKendrick]

Literally almost no one respects yours on this topic, I’m not too worried if you don’t respect mine.

Enjoy being wrong, have the last word or don’t makes little difference to me.

Cool so you can't address the criticism either... go figure