News Article: Mats Sundin on Matthews, Leafs and Leadership

[meefer]

And at the very very very least, makes the playoffs.

Your own words.

How is playoff appearance rate determine a players impact?

Contradiction.

Mario was the guy in every playoff run

The stats clearly showed no player being in every playoff run. And yes, he won two Cups.

Marcel was the guy on his team

Yes he was, when he was with the Kings and for a few years with Detroit. Not so much the Rangers.

Mats wasn't in the playoffs useless he was playing behind Sakic, carried by Cujo/Belfour, or second line with the twins.

Swing and a miss. He did have one playoff season with the Nordique and one with Vancouver. The others were all with Toronto. As to being carried:
98/99 Cujo ranked tied for 3rd in minutes played and tied for 16th in SV%
99/00 Cujo 7th and 9th
00/01 Cujo 5th and 11th
01/02 Cujo 25th and 27th
In summary: good, but not excellent numbers, can hardly qualify as carrying a team, though the Leafs made the playoffs each of those years.
02/03 Belfour 11th and 8th
03/04 Belfour 14th and 13th
05/06 Belfour 17th and 42nd
In summary: declining numbers, they missed the playoffs in the 05/06 season (understandable with Belfour posting a 0.892 SV%), does not qualify as carrying a team. This year also saw Sundin miss 12 games and play less minutes on average then he usually did. He nonetheless scored at a rate that had he played all 82 games he would have tallied 91 points, tying him for 12th overall and behind Thorton, Crosby, Staal and Savard at C.

It's been a fun discussion. I'll bow out now.

 

[Festinator]

Saw this thread and wanted to say that Mats Sundin was a huge part of me getting into hockey. I was super young when the Jets left Winnipeg and so the few times I did watch hockey growing up, it was usually the Leafs on HNIC. I still don't know too much about him, but whenever I saw that big, bald Swede smile, I did too, just seemed like such a great guy. I think my biggest memory is when he finished a hattrick in overtime against Ottawa I think. Slapshot from the blueline, was pretty awesome.

Probs would have become a full blown leafs fan eventually if the Jets hadn't come back, so thank goodness they did

Edit: Damn just looked up that goal, was his 500th and Calgary, not Ottawa. Wow shorthanded too.

 

[ImpartialNHLfan]

Saw this thread and wanted to say that Mats Sundin was a huge part of me getting into hockey. I was super young when the Jets left Winnipeg and so the few times I did watch hockey growing up, it was usually the Leafs on HNIC. I still don't know too much about him, but whenever I saw that big, bald Swede smile, I did too, just seemed like such a great guy. I think my biggest memory is when he finished a hattrick in overtime against Ottawa I think. Slapshot from the blueline, was pretty awesome.

Probs would have become a full blown leafs fan eventually if the Jets hadn't come back, so thank goodness they did

Edit: Damn just looked up that goal, was his 500th and Calgary, not Ottawa. Wow shorthanded too.

I remember that one like it was yesterday.

 

[Silver91]

Edit: Damn just looked up that goal, was his 500th and Calgary, not Ottawa. Wow shorthanded too.

Haha, yep, 3v4 to boot!

 

[ACC1224]

Saw this thread and wanted to say that Mats Sundin was a huge part of me getting into hockey. I was super young when the Jets left Winnipeg and so the few times I did watch hockey growing up, it was usually the Leafs on HNIC. I still don't know too much about him, but whenever I saw that big, bald Swede smile, I did too, just seemed like such a great guy. I think my biggest memory is when he finished a hattrick in overtime against Ottawa I think. Slapshot from the blueline, was pretty awesome.

Probs would have become a full blown leafs fan eventually if the Jets hadn't come back, so thank goodness they did

Edit: Damn just looked up that goal, was his 500th and Calgary, not Ottawa. Wow shorthanded too.

Yep, Sundin is known as clutch, always came up big in the important moments. Phenomenal talent that any Leaf fan can proudly say they were lucky to have witnessed his career and he was sorely missed once he left.
Hopefully Matthews can have such a career as Sundin. If he becomes a 1st ballot HOFer with the supporting cast they are assembling we will see a Cup here again before long.

 

[LondonKendrick]

Alright, I think I have the perfect mirror for Mats young career in today's NHL. Taylor Hall. He was a consensus 1st OA pick, he put up impressive numbers, he's neither a disappointment for a 1st OA pick nor has he ascended to to the top tier. Both were moved for underwhelming returns to address team needs.

Now the obvious criticism will be of the significance of position. Fine, if you want to rest your argument there is no further discussion, well I clearly can't convince you to open your mind. Both are primarily goal scorers. I'm argue that Hall is more likely to play on a top line on a contender than Mats bump out a center on a top 10 team. That said, there are two winger positions and one center so it's a steeper hill to climb for Mats vs his league competition but it's boderline semantics.

Both are threats to finish in top ten league scoring in any given year, both are a shoe in for top 40 in scoring. Both can't be the rutter than carries a team to the playoffs, both would be miscast as a centerpiece. Both will never, ever, ever, ever, ever be a threat for an individual NHL award outside of a calder nomination where they are only judged against their rookie class.

Did I mention that Mats has no team achievements in the NHL and never flirted with a major NHL award nomination.

So to push this argument further (seriously how mad are you if you read this far? In my defense you have thin skin on this issue) it still grosses me out to see people compare Auston to Mats, Auston is legitimately a top ten league talent and will compete for best talent in the game and win individual and hopefully championships.

Mats won a Masterson which is like the 'my mom thinks I'm cool award', Shane Doan and Dustin Brown also won one... tell me what an accomplishment that is... Mats didn't come close to winning a real NHL award or championship, if keeping score of those things count, apparent scoring between 30-35 goals is the measure of elite/greatness

You're mad aren't you. Remember attack me not the criticism like a basic would.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Alright, I think I have the perfect mirror for Mats young career in today's NHL. Taylor Hall. He was a consensus 1st OA pick, he put up impressive numbers, he's neither a disappointment for a 1st OA pick nor has he ascended to to the top tier. Both were moved for underwhelming returns to address team needs.

Now the obvious criticism will be of the significance of position. Fine, if you want to rest your argument there is no further discussion, well I clearly can't convince you to open your mind. Both are primarily goal scorers. I'm argue that Hall is more likely to play on a top line on a contender than Mats bump out a center on a top 10 team. That said, there are two winger positions and one center so it's a steeper hill to climb for Mats vs his league competition but it's boderline semantics.

Both are threats to finish in top ten league scoring in any given year, both are a shoe in for top 40 in scoring. Both can't be the rutter than carries a team to the playoffs, both would be miscast as a centerpiece. Both will never, ever, ever, ever, ever be a threat for an individual NHL award outside of a calder nomination where they are only judged against their rookie class.

Did I mention that Mats has no team achievements in the NHL and never flirted with a major NHL award nomination.

So to push this argument further (seriously how mad are you if you read this far? In my defense you have thin skin on this issue) it still grosses me out to see people compare Auston to Mats, Auston is legitimately a top ten league talent and will compete for best talent in the game and win individual and hopefully championships.

Mats won a Masterson which is like the 'my mom thinks I'm cool award', Shane Doan and Dustin Brown also won one... tell me what an accomplishment that is... Mats didn't come close to winning a real NHL award or championship, if keeping score of those things count, apparent scoring between 30-35 goals is the measure of elite/greatness

You're mad aren't you. Remember attack me not the criticism like a basic would.

You sound angry. Calm down internet tough guy.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Alright, I think I have the perfect mirror for Mats young career in today's NHL. Taylor Hall. He was a consensus 1st OA pick, he put up impressive numbers, he's neither a disappointment for a 1st OA pick nor has he ascended to to the top tier. Both were moved for underwhelming returns to address team needs.

Now the obvious criticism will be of the significance of position. Fine, if you want to rest your argument there is no further discussion, well I clearly can't convince you to open your mind. Both are primarily goal scorers. I'm argue that Hall is more likely to play on a top line on a contender than Mats bump out a center on a top 10 team. That said, there are two winger positions and one center so it's a steeper hill to climb for Mats vs his league competition but it's boderline semantics.

Both are threats to finish in top ten league scoring in any given year, both are a shoe in for top 40 in scoring. Both can't be the rutter than carries a team to the playoffs, both would be miscast as a centerpiece. Both will never, ever, ever, ever, ever be a threat for an individual NHL award outside of a calder nomination where they are only judged against their rookie class.

Did I mention that Mats has no team achievements in the NHL and never flirted with a major NHL award nomination.

So to push this argument further (seriously how mad are you if you read this far? In my defense you have thin skin on this issue) it still grosses me out to see people compare Auston to Mats, Auston is legitimately a top ten league talent and will compete for best talent in the game and win individual and hopefully championships.

Mats won a Masterson which is like the 'my mom thinks I'm cool award', Shane Doan and Dustin Brown also won one... tell me what an accomplishment that is... Mats didn't come close to winning a real NHL award or championship, if keeping score of those things count, apparent scoring between 30-35 goals is the measure of elite/greatness

You're mad aren't you. Remember attack me not the criticism like a basic would.

Show your work. Show that during Sundin's prime years in Toronto that amongst the top 10 teams in the league that he wouldn't be the top line centre.

 

[LondonKendrick]

Show your work. Show that during Sundin's prime years in Toronto that amongst the top 10 teams in the league that he wouldn't be the top line centre.

Was he Yzerman, Federov in Fed's prime, Forsberg, Sakic.... Was Sundin a talent that you wouldn't consider trading like them or was he a failed franchise player that his team tried to trade and he wouldn't allow it? Is he Joe Thornton? Did he peak like Lindros?

I'll tell you what, I'll crunch the micro stats when you address what I've said, I'm not your monkey. Someone nut the **** upand respond to what I've posted for once. If you have the dignity of fair discourse.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Was he Yzerman, Federov in Fed's prime, Forsberg, Sakic.... Was Sundin a talent that you wouldn't consider trading like them or was he a failed franchise player that his team tried to trade and he wouldn't allow it? Is he Joe Thornton? Did he peak like Lindros?

I'll tell you what, I'll crunch the micro stats when you address what I've said, I'm not your monkey. Someone nut the **** upand respond to what I've posted for once. If you have the dignity of fair discourse.

That is an irrelevant and insufficient reply. You said Mats wouldn’t bump out a center on a top 10 team. Bert asked you to back that up. Be his monkey already and prove to us that Mats wouldn’t bump out a center on top-10 teams for every year during Sundin’s prime. Cheers.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Was he Yzerman, Federov in Fed's prime, Forsberg, Sakic.... Was Sundin a talent that you wouldn't consider trading like them or was he a failed franchise player that his team tried to trade and he wouldn't allow it? Is he Joe Thornton? Did he peak like Lindros?

I'll tell you what, I'll crunch the micro stats when you address what I've said, I'm not your monkey. Someone nut the **** upand respond to what I've posted for once. If you have the dignity of fair discourse.

You're not my monkey? Holy shit. Pages of you and you alone making grand proclamations that Sundin wasn't all that great and so I ask you to do some work to show one of your claims. That isn't much. If you can't do that you don't deserve to be apart of this thread.

 

[LondonKendrick]

You're not my monkey? Holy ****. Pages of you and you alone making grand proclamations that Sundin wasn't all that great and so I ask you to do some work to show one of your claims. That isn't much. If you can't do that you don't deserve to be apart of this thread.

You're asking me to do a half hours of research rather than respond to my criticism, you want to derail what I've said rather than address like every other post.

You really think he's more Auston than Hall, you prove it then by the number vs league competition, taking into account scoring adjustments... yeah you don't want to do that do you. Just an obscurest with no intention of fair discourse, grand stand... go ahead.

Off the top of my head though, Auston, #1 in expected goals 5 on 5 in his rookie season in the league, 2 in goals, 1st in 5 on 5 goals, lead a team that wasn't supposed to make the playoffs to the playoffs, was the best player on his team when his team made the playoffs (was his team mvp)... show me when Mats Sundin did that?

He's more Hall than Auston/God be honest for once, you'll deflect though... and Auston score forty unlike Mats that never whiffed that in the cap era. Because he wasn't truly elite.

 

[BayStreetBully]

You're asking me to do a half hours of research rather than respond to my criticism, you want to derail what I've said rather than address like every other post.

You really think he's more Auston than Hall, you prove it then by the number vs league competition, taking into account scoring adjustments... yeah you don't want to do that do you. Just an obscurest with no intention of fair discourse, grand stand... go ahead.

He simply wants you to stand by your words. If you can’t even back up one simple statement you made, then why should anyone believe anything else you say? So be a good monkey and do the work. Thanks Bobo.

 

[BertCorbeau]

You're asking me to do a half hours of research rather than respond to my criticism, you want to derail what I've said rather than address like every other post.

You really think he's more Auston than Hall, you prove it then by the number vs league competition, taking into account scoring adjustments... yeah you don't want to do that do you. Just an obscurest with no intention of fair discourse, grand stand... go ahead.

I'm not derailing anything. You said that Sundin wouldn't crack a top 10 team's centre spot. I want you to show that. You can't wiggle your way out of making these types of bold statements just to try and get at another point you made that I didn't address nor that I care about. I haven't made any suggestions about Sundin vs Hall/Matthews so don't drag me into that crap.

 

[LondonKendrick]

I'm not derailing anything. You said that Sundin wouldn't crack a top 10 team's centre spot. I want you to show that. You can't wiggle your way out of making these types of bold statements just to try and get at another point you made that I didn't address nor that I care about. I haven't made any suggestions about Sundin vs Hall/Matthews so don't drag me into that crap.

You the one wiggling bay, I made a clear cut distinction between AUSTON MAIN EVENT MATTHEWS and mid card mats sumdum and you want to split hairs to to say 'you said he's not a top ten center' you're making a big deal out of the minor to ignore the major, you're wiggling, just like when you asked for an hour of research....

But seeing how I'm friendly taking 2005-2006 at random to find 10 better centers, Thornton, Crosby, Staal (sharp peak), Marc Savard, Bradly Conn Smyth Richards, Joe Sakic, Jason Spezza (dem sharp peaks), Jason Arnott and Brian Rolston (ok not Jay and Bry might have Sundin have outscored Sundin but not as good as Sundin)... 31st in league scoring... like the Taylor Hall he is... Naslund? About the same as Sundin but he at least made game 7 on a finals so you got me, Bert you nailed me, Mats Sundin was kinda in the conversation of top ten centers in that year and that amounts to? No cup no outstanding nomination or playoff appearance.

New tradition, I'll pick a random year to dismantle for each post I reply to, so SUPER STAR MATS SUNDIN IN 2005-2006... WAS MAYBE MAYBE NOT A TOP TEN CENTER ON A PLAYOFF TEAM move over Doug, move over Auston....

Let's chip away at his legacy, survey says... MATS ELITE.... 2005-2006 Mats Taylor Hallish. Post by post year by year, no more cherry picking.

My account wins that year, this should be fun... who knows whats next.

 

[LondonKendrick]

You the one wiggling bay, I made a clear cut distinction between AUSTON MAIN EVENT MATTHEWS and mid card mats sumdum and you want to split hairs to to say 'you said he's not a top ten center' you're making a big deal out of the minor to ignore the major, you're wiggling, just like when you asked for an hour of research....

But seeing how I'm friendly taking 2005-2006 at random to find 10 better centers, Thornton, Crosby, Staal (sharp peak), Marc Savard, Bradly Conn Smyth Richards, Joe Sakic, Jason Spezza (dem sharp peaks), Jason Arnott and Brian Rolston (ok not Jay and Bry might have Sundin have outscored Sundin but not as good as Sundin)... 31st in league scoring... like the Taylor Hall he is... Naslund? About the same as Sundin but he at least made game 7 on a finals so you got me, Bert you nailed me, Mats Sundin was kinda in the conversation of top ten centers in that year and that amounts to? No cup no outstanding nomination or playoff appearance.

New tradition, I'll pick a random year to dismantle for each post I reply to, so SUPER STAR MATS SUNDIN IN 2005-2006... WAS MAYBE MAYBE NOT A TOP TEN CENTER ON A PLAYOFF TEAM move over Doug, move over Auston....

Let's chip away at his legacy, survey says... MATS ELITE.... 2005-2006 Mats Taylor Hallish. Post by post year by year, no more cherry picking.

My account wins that year, this should be fun... who knows whats next.

I just crunched the numbers of Sundin's career and lost my post to a glitch click....

But if you add up all of Sundin's totals in terms of placements in league scoring you get 21.325 and that is omitting his rookie year where he finished 71th in scoring and his Vancouver year 273rd. I didn't want to manipulate the numbers with fluke years. So total of 342/18-2 seasons. By all means, correct my math, really disappointed because I put each season is context as I listed them but ca la vie.

Now his peak year when he finished four he was behind Todd Bertuzzi (Generational talent amirite) and edging out Pavel Demitra 7th in overall points, so Mats did well for himself in tight scoring years dead puck era seasons, plenty of seasons literally the difference between being like 13 and 25th was two points. I gave him the benefit of every tie, it's funny that he was a consistent 70-80 point player despite the league getting tighter our or loosing up later in his career, his numbers were consistent. He was in that Mark Recchi, Naslund, Modano tier, so good for him if you call that all time great, we have a difference of opinion. My opinion can be further swayed by championships.

SO 21st, while doing him favors, factor in goaltending and defense that should cost him 10 spots (is that fair?) he was about a top 30 talent?

Auston is already a top ten maybe a top two talent and we don't have to omit his rookie year. So looks like I'm right, go figure. Sorry to piss on the at best 25th player in the league but not really. Can we stop pretending like Sundin was peak Lecalvier? Or are we homers.