Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion Part II

[Menzinger]

I wouldnt consider Pagnotta to be a good source on Leafs news.

A 3 year term is fine, but more at like 7.5-8 mil in terms of aav.

 

[Kiwi]

Hockey Reference has the exact same stats.

Marner 152 evp
Mathews 151 evp.

Now put down there 5v5 goal totals over that period, your so transparent it's laughable

You love the points totals but seem to be allergic to goals totals which actually earn players a premium

10x3 is an absolutely ridiculous ask. I would say that’s not even equivalent to the Matthews contract in terms of value. Thats a much more player friendly deal then what Matthews got.

Who's asking for that?

******* hell, that would be steep for McDavid who's the best player in the game by plenty let alone anybody not named McDavid

 

[MyBudJT]

Now put down there 5v5 goal totals over that period, your so transparent it's laughable

You love the points totals but seem to be allergic to goals totals which actually earn players a premium

He was responding to a different topic, where we were comparing EVP from different sites that show different numbers.

I find this funny coming from someone that seems to often support that Nylander contract, though.

For some strange reason, people like to use the Pastrnak as a comparable. Pastrnak is the MUCH better goal scorer, but that doesn't seem to matter to those that seem to think that Nylander is equal to Pastrnak.... but I guess you'll only care about goals when it fits your narrative.

 

[Menzinger]

Pasta also only had one high scoring season when he signed his curren deal vs two low scoring ones.

 

[Legion34]

He was responding to a different topic, where we were comparing EVP from different sites that show different numbers.

I find this funny coming from someone that seems to often support that Nylander contract, though.

For some strange reason, people like to use the Pastrnak as a comparable. Pastrnak is the MUCH better goal scorer, but that doesn't seem to matter to those that seem to think that Nylander is equal to Pastrnak.... but I guess you'll only care about goals when it fits your narrative.

Pasternak wasn’t clearly the better goal scorer at the time. I think there was like a 15 goal difference in 175 games. Pasta had also started ridiculously hot and cooled.

They didn’t know if he was a 25 goal scorer or what...... like William Karlson. Etc.

If Pasternak was the best goal scoring Center in the league. He would have been worth way more than Nylander at the time.

 

[MyBudJT]

Pasta also only had one high scoring season when he signed his curren deal vs two low scoring ones.

Which is another reason why they're bad comparables. You agree?

 

[MyBudJT]

Pasternak wasn’t clearly the better goal scorer at the time. I think there was like a 15 goal difference in 175 games. Pasta had also started ridiculously hot and cooled.

They didn’t know if he was a 25 goal scorer or what...... like William Karlson. Etc.

If Pasternak was the best goal scoring Center in the league. He would have been worth way more than Nylander at the time.

Fair point. But Pastrnak still had two seasons where he would have outscored Nylander's best season had he played the full 82 games.

But Pastrnak still showed to be a better scorer than Nylander which SHOULD come at more of a premium, no?

Nylander: 48G in 185GP == 21 G/82 GP
Pastrnak: 59G in 172GP == 28 G/82 GP

Thats still a substantial difference.

 

[Kiwi]

He was responding to a different topic, where we were comparing EVP from different sites that show different numbers.

I find this funny coming from someone that seems to often support that Nylander contract, though.

For some strange reason, people like to use the Pastrnak as a comparable. Pastrnak is the MUCH better goal scorer, but that doesn't seem to matter to those that seem to think that Nylander is equal to Pastrnak.... but I guess you'll only care about goals when it fits your narrative.

Support the Nylander contract? That's a ******* joke isn't it?

I've stated numerous times I think he's overpaid but it was better than the alternative of him sitting out an entire year

Narrative? Players do get paid a premium for goal scoring in contract negotiations, that's called a fact, just like they get more if they play certain positions

You know the difference between a fact and a narrative right?

 

[MyBudJT]

Support the Nylander contract? That's a ******* joke isn't it?

I've stated numerous times I think he's overpaid but it was better than the alternative of him sitting out an entire year

Narrative? Players do get paid a premium for goal scoring in contract negotiations, that's called a fact, just like they get more if they play certain positions

You know the difference between a fact and a narrative right?

My apologies, I misunderstood your stance. I agree, goals should have a premium.

Still, you shouldn't have called the guy out... he was talking about a different topic. -

 

[Legion34]

Fair point. But Pastrnak still had two seasons where he would have outscored Nylander's best season had he played the full 82 games.

But Pastrnak still showed to be a better scorer than Nylander which SHOULD come at more of a premium, no?

Nylander: 48G in 185GP == 21 G/82 GP
Pastrnak: 59G in 172GP == 28 G/82 GP

Thats still a substantial difference.

Yes. Sure. On the face of it. Fine.

But 2 things. One. Pasta actually signed for slightly higher cap percent.

Two. Pasta caved. He held out to the last day and signed. Willy didn’t. They wanted to pay slightly less but he held out.

Hi pasta broke. Willy didn’t. And still signed for slightly less

 

[CelticDruid]

if Kucherov were negotiating a contract right now, he would be asking for what. 15 AAV?

 

[Kiwi]

My apologies, I misunderstood your stance. I agree, goals should have a premium.

Still, you shouldn't have called the guy out... he was talking about a different topic. -

That's fair, I didn't read through the entire thread so if I screwed up i apologize unreservedly to Diceman

Goals and position matter, it's a question of how much

 

[Kiwi]

That cannot be possible, no way I'm believing that

 

[NiL8r87]

EDIT: nvm

 

[A1LeafNation]

Time to trade him. He doing things I've never seen an RFA do. Not good.

 

[Brobust]

I wouldnt consider Pagnotta to be a good source on Leafs news.

A 3 year term is fine, but more at like 7.5-8 mil in terms of aav.

The thing I heard about Pagnotta was that he doesn't have sources in management, but has a ton of sources in publicity/marketing divisions of teams.

The absolute max on a three year bridge would be $5.5-6 million.

 

[ULF_55]

EDIT: nvm

Really?

That makes it easy.

Move him.

 

[The CyNick]

The 3 year marner offer is reasonable if he's looking for 11.6 like Matthews. Likely it ends up being a little under $10M over 3.

It's amazing how few people get the real numbers that he's looking at. Here's how it works in reality. Mather wants to get $58M over 5 years. In 3 years most people project the cap at $100M. He'll want somewhere between 13-15% of the cap. If he gets 10M for 3 years, that's $30M and then the $28M left to get to $58M over 5 years would be roughly 14% of the cap at that point.

Matthews reportedly was offering a $9M x 3 option. This was during the season, so marner has performed better and likely looking at a higher number. $10M is probably their offer. It could settle in between $9.5 and $10 x3.

 

[Mr Hockey]

you are trying to say Marner doesn't deserve more than possibly the best team friendly contract in the league, Kucherov contract should not be used as a comparison for any player because it heavily favors management

 

[Mr Hockey]

Really!?!

I was responding to a theory as to why two different sites are showing different EVP stats.

NHL com would be official numbers, since Corsica, etc is/are just a dude chilling at home playing on his computer

 

[CelticDruid]

you are trying to say Marner doesn't deserve more than possibly the best team friendly contract in the league, Kucherov contract should not be used as a comparison for any player because it heavily favors management

So what?

I would rather trade Marner than pay him that kind of money, what next 14 million on the contract after that?

10 million for three years is theft.

9.5 x 8 is reasonable.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

This is basically completely and totally wrong. Kunitz in the playoffs was a responsible .5 ppg player making half of what Marleau is. Letang was and is on a bargain contract, Hagelin was outstanding in 2016 and due to injury reliable PK, puck possession guy at worst in 17. Maatta was the definition of average, wasn’t great nor bad but played responsible hockey both runs. Dupuis was also significantly underpaid for his ES production but that’s irrelevant because he retired before the Pens won back to back.

Letang signed for 7.25M in 2013. That's insanely high. His cap hit % for D is 5th highest (behind massive contracts Subban/Weber, recently signed Doughty) while Rielly's is 48th. Letang's contract was not signed at a sweetheart deal.

Kunitz was not a responsible player in the playoffs, he was as useful as Marleau is ... That's not good, especially not at his caphit.

Hagelin was great, but not worth his caphit.

Mattaa was average, but again overpaid for average.

Dupuis was useless money.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

when the cups and awards are given for "advanced stats" for zone entries then holla back at me

Okay keep ignoring things you don't understand

*Climate change is proven through research and can be easily seen to be real by looking at the data*
You: Nah bro, holla at me when all the glaciers are gone and all the animals are extinct.

 

[PromisedLand]

Okay keep ignoring things you don't understand

*Climate change is proven through research and can be easily seen to be real by looking at the data*
You: Nah bro, holla at me when all the glaciers are gone and all the animals are extinct.

are you high? or do you have a nobel prize in data analytics? take a seat kid; insulting other people's intelligence is a way of how low iq individuals indulge in debates

 

[LeafingTheWay]

are you high? or do you have a nobel prize in data analytics? take a seat kid; insulting other people's intelligence is a way of how low iq individuals indulge in debates

No one's insulting you, apologies if you felt my comment was like that. Just pointing out you resort to making fun of advanced stats without even attempting to understand it.

If you haven't checked them out yet, you should. Would help to allievate your dislike to Nylander.