Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion Part II

[diceman934]

when did marner say this?

He never said it is the answer. They offered to sign last summer before either of the other two signed and the Leafs offer was low. He countered and it when no where. Dubas clearly stated that they were talking this year.

 

[MyBudJT]

Corsica | Home

So who would be more accurate, Corsica Or NHL.com??

 

[Cor]

Duchene and Benn seem far enough off that I don't really think they're comparables -- are you talking after their ELCs? Backstrom is a bit closer but Marner still outproduced him quite a bit, at least 5v5 at a glance.

It's based on signing age, games played as of signing, and points as of signing.

The top 5 are Kovalchuk, Backstrom, Duchene, Ovechkin, and Benn. Stamkos is 6th.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

All I'm saying is that /60 doesn't matter as much to players, because durability matters.

It doesn't matter to players? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make now but total points scored in a season is definitely not more valuable when it comes to measuring offensive impact. It's how well they impact offense when they're on the ice. A player's career can derail if they suffer too many injuries and that's usually because they were injured so much they actually got worse at hockey. Matthews is still a top player in the league and a GM would be insane to put a wrench in contract negotiations with a 21yr old because he had a few injuries. You pay the kid for how well he plays hockey and move on.

 

[Legion34]

If you're in Marner's camp, and you just saw the contract that Matthews just signed for, why would you settle for 8yrs x 10M?

I get that Matthews has the "center" factor, and the "goal scoring" factor, but Marner has lead our teams in points each of the last two seasons, and has turned out to be one of our better PKers... something we haven't trusted Matthews to do yet.

I think our management has treated the contract negotiations with our RFAs pretty poorly so far. This isn't taking a shot at Dubas, overall I'm a fan of him... but overall, they've handled these negotiations poorly. I think they should have taken the Chicago approach, and sign Matthews and Marner to identical contracts similar to what Toews and Kane had done.

At this point, I'm hoping for 6 years x 10M myself, but I'm doubtful that the Marner camp will be willing to go that low, and you really can't blame them.

Name one player that got top dollar for pk prowess. The difference between the Chicago situation is that Kane is better. Toews is the big C

Matthews is the better player and has the premiums

 

[TML Dynasty]

10 mill for 3 years? LMAO

If thats true, then I genuinely could see him getting traded.

It’s crazy! I honestly don’t know how u trade that either.

 

[Cor]

So who would be more accurate, Corsica Or NHL.com??

I just checked Evolving Hockey, and they have Matthews at 143 (same as Corsica) but has Marner at 139 (different from both Corsica and NHL.com)

How that happens, I have no idea.

 

[MyBudJT]

Name one player that got top dollar for pk prowess. The difference between the Chicago situation is that Kane is better. Toews is the big C

Matthews is the better player and has the premiums

No, I get this... which is why I hope he settles for 10x6. But I understand where Marner's camp is coming from, and you can't blame them.

 

[MyBudJT]

I just checked Evolving Hockey, and they have Matthews at 143 (same as Corsica) but has Marner at 139 (different from both Corsica and NHL.com)

How that happens, I have no idea.

If I were to guess, I would have thought that the NHL's stats are directly updated from the game logs that they collect in real-time... I would probably be less confident with Corsica and Evolving Hockey... but who knows...

Regardless, Marner and Matthews are in the same tier was far as P/60 and EVP/60.

 

[kb]

Lol, how a contract is viewed from non biased observers is your best indicator, not some fanboy on a bull board.

So let's say he's overpaid Nylander by $500k, Matthews by maybe $1 million, and somehow that's unforgivable?

If you want to complain about contracts......you see anything wrong with the Marleau or Zaitsev contracts? Matt Martin?

Now those were overpays to get angry about - None were core players.

Far more egregious than the piddly amounts that were actually talking about that were spent on the core pieces. What, maybe $1.5 more per season more than expected? Their contracts aren't impediments to the Leafs doing business like overpays to non-core players will.

If that's the only serious blemish on his record, I'm happy. He's not overpaying where it hurts the most - like the contracts referenced above.

 

[PromisedLand]

I don't know if you are overvaluing Marners performance this year, or undervaluing Nylanders performance this year. Whatever it is, it reeks of recency bias.

If Nylander was in training camp and played with Tavares all season and had PP1 time, coming off his 60 point season, he could have easily put up 80+ points too.

Clearly watching him play in the WHC you can see he didn't forget how to play hockey.​

marner takes harder match ups; and plays on PK. Marner's career has been on an upward trajectory he got both kadri and marleau going last season

nylander cannot produce without matthews while matthews produces without nylnader

nylander is a good player but he is nowhere in the same ballpark as marner.

P.S. nylander's points against italy. latvia and norway where he put up points don't let that influence your own "recency bias". putting up points against weaker hockey nations who barely have any NHLers on their roster is not a way to gauge one's performance

 

[PromisedLand]

Other BS, you mean advanced stats? Another person who make fun of something they don't understand.

when the cups and awards are given for "advanced stats" for zone entries then holla back at me

 

[MyBudJT]

I just checked Evolving Hockey, and they have Matthews at 143 (same as Corsica) but has Marner at 139 (different from both Corsica and NHL.com)

How that happens, I have no idea.

I'm going to quote you twice.

I wonder if one accounts for 5v5 only, and the other accounts for OT, 4v4, etc.

 

[diceman934]

How does that make sense?

I've got:

Matthews: 151 EVP
Marner: 152 EVP
http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...ilter=gamesPlayed,gte,10&sort=evPoints,points

Matthews: 3317:10 EV TOI
Marner: 3563:16 EV TOI
http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...=2&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,10&sort=evTimeOnIce

Matthews: (151/3317.167)*60 = 2.73
Marner: (152/3563.267)*60 = 2.56

Hockey Reference has the exact same stats.

Marner 152 evp
Mathews 151 evp.

 

[Dino Tkachuk]

If I were to guess, I would have thought that the NHL's stats are directly updated from the game logs that they collect in real-time... I would probably be less confident with Corsica and Evolving Hockey... but who knows...

Regardless, Marner and Matthews are in the same tier was far as P/60 and EVP/60.

Someone on the Sens board did stats for NHL.com for a while and said they require 98.5% accuracy. I would trust NHL.com numbers.

Edit: The link is here: Sens coach for 2019-2020 Season

 

[Mr Hockey]

I'm going to quote you twice.

I wonder if one accounts for 5v5 only, and the other accounts for OT, 4v4, etc.

even strength and 5-vs-5 are different stats

 

[crump]

pay him. As long as you have Matthews Tavares Marner, Andersen and Rielly you can trade/promote and sign the bodies around them.

As long as you have NHL destined prospects like like Sandin, Lilygren, Bracco advancing from the Marlies, you can fill in the rest easily. You'll be able to keep one of Kapaenen and Johnsson, maybe both if Marleau/Zaitsev comes off the books...

Focus is Marner...he's our best player even if he's not a centre, he proved that last year. No brainer...you keep him and trade others out.

 

[CelticDruid]

Good for you Marner, put the screws to Dubas. I fully support you doing whatever it takes to get what you feel you deserve. Dubas made this mess, he attempted to take advantage of your home town love and exploit it while handing out all the riches to your foreign counterparts.

Marner 10.6m x 5y

A million more for Marner than Kucherov?

Give me Kucherov any day of the week.

 

[Mr Hockey]

A million more for Marner than Kucherov?

Give me Kucherov any day of the week.

if Kucherov were negotiating a contract right now, he would be asking for what. 15 AAV?

 

[Cotton]

Saw this in the Laine trade thread.

 

[Stigma]

Saw this in the Laine trade thread.

Marner for Laine?

 

[Cotton]

Marner for Laine?

Hah, the 3x10 prediction... but that would be interesting.

 

[MyBudJT]

even strength and 5-vs-5 are different stats

Really!?!

I was responding to a theory as to why two different sites are showing different EVP stats.

 

[jaric1862]

10x3 is an absolutely ridiculous ask. I would say that’s not even equivalent to the Matthews contract in terms of value. Thats a much more player friendly deal then what Matthews got.

 

[ULF_55]

10x3 is an absolutely ridiculous ask. I would say that’s not even equivalent to the Matthews contract in terms of value. Thats a much more player friendly deal then what Matthews got.

I think he's very tradeable at 10, he'd still be RFA at the end right?

Wonder if they could get top 3 pick this year?