Mark Messier

[Zippgunn]

Messier was supposed to push the Canucks -- a fairly young team four years removed from the Stanley Cup Finals -- to the next level.

Instead, he created division in the dressing room and caused the team to be dismantled prematurely. Beloved leadership and community figures were shipped out so that he and Keenan could consolidate control of the dressing room and create their own team culture. He was paid to provide additional leadership and on-ice contributions to help the team, but instead collected his paycheck pretending to be the team's manager for the first year and coasting on the ice for three seasons.

Additionally, he crossed several controversial boundaries, including with his demand of the #11 while ignoring the attempts of Wayne Maki's family to communicate with him about the subject. Messier and Keenan were sometimes spotted hanging around new owner John McCaw during as the team floundered during 1997-98.

He created a very hostile environment from the very start of his tenure in Vancouver, and the negative stigma attached to his name never left. Canucks fans did not accept his presence with the team. The team had sought a skilled center to make the roster better -- Wayne Gretzky, Doug Gilmour, and Adam Oates were all close to becoming Canucks around that time. After all of those failed attempts to acquire an extra piece for a playoff run, the Canucks went all-in for Messier.

People did not want to support the team during the Messier years.

It didn't help either that Messier and Keenan were the faces of the antagonists in 1994. Messier was, until his time in Vancouver, known as one of the meanest players around with a penchant for punishing opponents with dirty plays and big goals. Canucks players, Linden included, bled because of Messier in 1994. Messier didn't even seem awake while playing for the Canucks.

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here but some of these charges could well be laid at the feet of the Sedins and some are just ridiculous; how dare he and Keenan hang out with the owner! The Sedins were signed to their current contracts in order to set the Canucks up for a new era of success which they have hardly done and they too don't seem to be awake some nights. Maki's number wasn't being used and wasn't retired so that is hardly a valid criticism either (Maki's biggest claim to fame was that he died tragically young and was involved in a brutal stick swinging incident with a Bruin player, he was no star). Nobody forced the Canucks to offer him that contract. Also remember that his first year here he was 37 years old, that is, the same age as the Sedins are now and despite several nagging injuries scored at a better pace than they are now. I agree that his time here was a disappointment but the hate he gets in Vancouver is irrational IMHO and should really be re-directed to Keenan who was, to me, the REAL bastard during this era, playing favorites and jettisoning good players that he had some problem with or other (he let Archie Irbe walk because he "didn't like small goalies" despite Irbe being one of the only bright spots here during that time). Not hating on the Sedins who are a whole lot more classy perhaps but the fact remains that Messier was a winner everywhere else and the Sedins haven't led us anywhere and it sure seems that people don't want to support the Canucks right now either, at least if the hockey message boards are any indication. Love him or hate him he is considered a legend everywhere in the league except Vancouver who, it would seem, would much prefer to revere the likes of convicted felon Bertuzzi or Burrows who is one of the most despised players in the league. Such contrarians.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Messier situation - one of the most misunderstood situations in Canuck history

He came he for a paycheque only. We had a team that should have been competitive, yes it was on the downward turn, but he really turned this team into a joke. Like everything he did was bad. He drove players away, was selfish, and that great leader you hear about was the exact opposite. Getting into details is a pain and I am sure someone else will, but there is literally nothing he did that was good for us.

There are so many things wrong with this post. Not just this post, but almost every post in this thread. I will try and address some of these issues:

1) The Wayne Maki situation. Messier was unaware of who Wayne Maki was, and the onus was on Ownership to make contact to the Maki family to explain what was going on.

2) Captaincy. When Messier signed here, the media was what started making such a huge deal of it. To avoid this becoming an issue in the lockerroom, Linden gave Messier the captaincy. Admittedly - Messier didn't have to accept it (as he later admits), but this idea that he demanded to be captain is ridiculous.

3) Failure to sign Mogilny on time. Instead of starting opening night with all of Messier, Bure, and Mogilny, the Canucks idiotic ownership were arguing with Mogilny over what was essentially pennies and dimes. Mogilny did not make his debut until 8-9 games into the season when the Canucks were already in trouble. Had Mogilny been here from Day 1, perhaps we would have started out better.

4) Country-club atmosphere. As much as we don't want to admit this, the remaining core from 1994 had become stale. This was the biggest reason why they missed the playoffs the previous year! The media at the time (Neil McRae, etc.) raked the Canucks over the coals over it. When Messier came here and saw what was going on (i.e. the lacksidasicalness in practice, etc.), all he did was express his concern to management.

Being a winner all his life, Messier knew what was needed to win..............and from what he saw, this team needed change.

The Canucks went under a major rebuild under the Messier years, but at the end of it, we saw the emergence and development of Markus Naslund..................and Naslund gives full credit to Messier for taking him under his wing.

At 36 years of age, Messier needed to be a complementary piece at this stage in his career. Ownership brought him in to be the Alpha. That fault is on ownership. Not Messier. All Messier did was accept the best offer out there. The onus was on ownership to assess where this team and core truly was.

Lastly - there probably still was lingering effects from 1994. Many players in that lockerroom had been to war with Messier 3 years earlier. I don't care what anyone says - when you go to war with someone in a Stanley Cup Final, that changes shit. There's always going to be some tension..........which is what is we saw from guys like Linden, Gelinas, Odjick, McLean, etc, when Messier came here.

Messier didn't just come to Vancouver and mysteriously stop being one of the greatest leaders in all of sports. He came into a very bad situation and helped this team transition from an old core to a new core.

 

[racerjoe]

Why did you quote me, then address nothing I said in my post? Weird.

 

[Carl Carlson]

Can't stand him. I don't buy into the leadership hype either. I'll concede he won, but albeit on pretty talented teams and I'd argue they likely would have won with another person as captain.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Here's my (edited) take from the Hockey History Board discussion http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...t-hated-vancouver-canuck-of-all-time.1385597/ thread...

Messier is easily my all time least favourite Canuck (followed by Randy Boyd, but that's another story).

Part of the galling factor about his time here was that he sucked so bad after having been so good. Up to then, Messier had made a career out of beating the Canucks in every way imaginable. A decade plus of *****-slapping us while he was with the Oilers, and then, when we had finally seen him shipped off to the Eastern conference, he came back and yanked our Stanley Cup away.

We'd spent 15 years cursing his name and wishing we had someone like him... and then we did... but we got old, complacent, entitled Messier instead. He even managed to beat us by joining us.

I'll add that never once did I see him display an ounce of the mean-spirited passion playing for us, as he demonstrated on a nightly basis whenever he played against us.

All the other shit was just icing on the shit cake.

 

[Melvin]

In a nutshell it is because he came advertised as "hockey's greatest leader," and still now promotes himself in this way, even to the point where there is a leadership trophy named after him, but in his time in Vancouver he showed approximately zero leadership on and off the ice. He was nothing but a selfish, arrogant ass who cared only about putting himself at the centre and collecting a paycheque.

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

He's a ****ing ******* and a fraud.
He had it written into his contract that he would be given #11, despite knowing about Wayne Maki and his family's agreement with the team.

Actually it was Vancouver's contract offer to Messier that contained the clause about #11, Pat Quinn even told Messier that things had been worked out with the Maki's even though they found out about Messier using the number from watching the press conference. When Quinn finally did speak to the Maki family he told them they should be honored that Messier was wearing the number, they said they were not. Eventually they said they were ok with Messier wearing the number until his time in Vancouver was over as long as the Canucks officially retired it at that point, the Canucks refused.

Allegedly colluded with management to strip Linden of the captaincy and drive him out of town.

Actually after signing with the Canucks Messier publicly endorsed Linden as captain, saying Linden had done a great job and their was no need for that to change. It was Linden who was gave the captaincy to Messier, he said that if the team failed with him as captain and Messier in the room he would be blamed. Trevor Linden at 26 played himself out of Vancouver with his 21 points in 42 games and a -13.

Caused a rift in the dressing room which resulted in Keenan being responsible for shipping out McLean, Babych, Gelinas among others.

Actually their was already problems in the Vancouver dressing room prior to Messier's arrival with private information being leaked to the media, this stopped after some of the old guard was traded. The blame for these players being traded again falls squarely on their own shoulders.
McLean: 3.68GAA .879Sv%
Babych:47GP 9pts -11
Gelinas: 24GP 8pts -6

Scored 30 points fewer than his previous season in New York and never broke 60 points over his three seasons in Vancouver.

Actually Messier at age 37 scored 24 less points than he did the previous season in NY. Which probably was not a huge shock to anyone who saw Messier play at age 36 with the Rangers where he scored 11 less goals and 15 less points than he did at age 35.

Had three times less penalty minutes in two of his three seasons here than in his next season in New York (30 vs. 89). He didn't give a ****.

That's a fair criticism, although Messier did have some injury problems in Vancouver I agree he played a much less physical and aggressive game than he did in NY. As far as him not caring though , that seems less likely considering Brian Burke tried to bring him back to the Canucks, before he re-signed with the Rangers.

Also managed to profit off the team by having a clause written into his contact that guaranteed a payout if the value of the team rose while he was employed - and ten years later, taking the franchise to court over it.

The Canucks offered this to Messier, no one made them do that, that's on the Canucks

So to summarize, a team on the decline added a player on the decline for way too much money. It probably should of seemed strange to someone that that Rangers were not willing to meet Messier's contract demands despite being one the NHL's wealthiest franchises and Messier's hero status for helping deliver their first cup in 54 years.

Mark Messier contract with Vancouver was one you offer a franchise player, he brought those expectations on himself when he signed and he didn't come remotely close to being that so, that is where the completely valid anger and criticism comes from.

Messier is so hated in Vancouver because he is the scapegoat for everything that went wrong in Vancouver post 1994. Messier definitely deserves his blame, his signing was a huge failure but his level of hate is a product of this time period in Vancouver being full of failures by ownership, management, and other players, and the blame for many of those being put on Messier.

 

[Melvin]

Actually it was Vancouver's contract offer to Messier that contained the clause about #11, Pat Quinn even told Messier that things had been worked out with the Maki's even though they found out about Messier using the number from watching the press conference. When Quinn finally did speak to the Maki family he told them they should be honored that Messier was wearing the number, they said they were not. Eventually they said they were ok with Messier wearing the number until his time in Vancouver was over as long as the Canucks officially retired it at that point, the Canucks refused.

This is all well and good, but again you have to remember we are talking about the self-proclaimed greatest leader in the history of Earth here. It would have taken a small amount of grace and humility to just say "you know what, given the circumstances I am going to wear a different number." That would have gone a long way to show his leadership, but instead somehow the greatest leader hockey has ever seen was some how too much of an egotist to do something as trivial as change his jersey number to show some grace. That is the part that is difficult to swallow.

When evaluating Messier's time in Vancouver, you must look at it through the lens of team perception at the time, which is that we were, as you say, a mess of a team with some young talent and thought that Mark Messier's brilliant leadership was going to help right the ship. And at the first opportunity for this tremendous leader of brilliant character to show some of it by simply changing his jersey number to respect the wishes of a family and he shits the bed.

Messier is so hated in Vancouver because he is the scapegoat for everything that went wrong in Vancouver post 1994. Messier definitely deserves his blame, his signing was a huge failure but his level of hate is a product of this time period in Vancouver being full of failures by ownership, management, and other players, and the blame for many of those being put on Messier.

This does have some truth to it, of course.

 

[Dissonance Jr]

I don't really begrudge Messier for the Maki flap — it's hard to expect a new player to know the local backstory behind a jersey number. That was management's responsibility to sort out and they handled it poorly.

But my god, Messier's play here was atrocious. No one was expecting a Hart-worthy performance, but at the very least we were hoping for the guy billed as an intense competitor who would do anything to win. Instead we got a lazy floater making $6 million a year who spent more time dictating trades from the bench than actually skating in the Canucks' defensive zone. If he'd put in an honest effort on the ice, maybe all the other circus sideshow stuff would be easier to take. But he didn't.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Being a winner all his life, Messier knew what was needed to win..............and from what he saw, this team needed change.

The Canucks went under a major rebuild under the Messier years, but at the end of it, we saw the emergence and development of Markus Naslund..................and Naslund gives full credit to Messier for taking him under his wing.

naslund and bertuzzi were very talented players, but supreme losers. i mean naslund even said it with his own mouth: "we choked."

thanks messier

but that's just a cheap shot at naslund.

the reality is, the sincerity of the naslund quote is pretty debatable. other than, again, that one time he admitted to choking, did he ever say anything that was anything, or was he just moving his mouth because he was the captain and people put microphones in front of it?

Markus Naslund at least gave Messier a lot of credit:

"I think my biggest influence has been Messier," says Naslund. "Watching him prepare for games and how seriously he still took everything at his age. A lot of the qualities that he had helped me get better."

http://www.nhl.com/intheslot/read/indepth/naslund/main.html

on the other hand:

''I was never going make the kind of impact Mess does because I was never going to be the physical force he is,'' Naslund said shortly after becoming captain. ''In his last year here, a lot of players were scared to say anything in the locker room with Mark in the room. To me, the best way to improve a team's chemistry is through give and take.

''And while I was in awe watching Mario, I was young," he said. "What I learned most from him is that Mario has something that not a lot of people have. He doesn't think he ever is going to fail. When you always have that approach, that you're going to make it, that you are going to make a difference, the mind is a pretty powerful thing.''

and

''Markus learned how to use his skills by watching Mario Lemieux and he learned to be more focused and more competitive by watching Mark Messier -- two pretty good leaders I'd say,'' Bertuzzi said. ''I wouldn't say he was in a shell before Mess left to go back to New York (following the 1999-2000 season), but we needed someone to step up and take charge of this team -- and Markus did not hesitate.

on that second one, when bertuzzi says "i wouldn't say he was in a shell before mess left" i'm guessing what he really means is "he was [and the rest of us also were] in a shell before mess left."

funnily enough, the source is the same: http://www.nhl.com/intheslot/read/indepth/naslund/blossoms.html


but even if it's true that naslund learned how to be a captain and how to play with intensity from messier, naslund was a terrible captain and leader. quiet, gutless, maddeningly passive, and almost never stepped up when he had to, unlike, say, prime messier, who of course was everything you'd want in a leader. naslund was a ridiculously skilled scorer, yes. but as a captain.... if he learned how to be the guy that carries the team on his back and to come up big when his team needed him to from messier, messier did a crappy job of mentoring him.

'

oops, cheap shot again. hard to avoid.

 

[Jyrki21]

@Sonny Lamateena, even as a guy who has largely bitter memories about Messier's time in Vancouver, I do agree that some of the individual reasons that people cite for disliking him have been built up in importance over time. In fact, I wrote a long piece about this time period for the podcast Pucks on Net recounting how I remember the atmosphere around the team being at the time, and one of the points I made is that people didn't find stuff like the captaincy or the #11 all that scandalous at the time, but once he started souring on us they became reasons added to the pile. Just my recollection.

All that said, there should be a correction on this point:

As far as him not caring though , that seems less likely considering Brian Burke tried to bring him back to the Canucks, before he re-signed with the Rangers.

Burke never actually tried to bring him back. That was his (rather transparent) excuse as to why he wasn't picking up the team option on Messier's contract for two more seasons at $6 million each. Instead, he was going to let the deal lapse and "try to re-sign him" at a cheaper price. If this attempt ever truly happened, I suspect it lasted about 5 minutes, if that – they were more than happy to get out of that deal and it's doubtful Messier had any interest either. That pronouncement by Burke was their way of saving face over what had become a very unpopular association.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

And people say I troll..... is this post for real? Lol.

I heard several times he is very hated among Canucks Fans, why is that?

He had 162 points in 207 games with this team, thats not bad.

His playing-style is well known, but did he play the same gritty physical style when he played for this team?

 

[Jay Cee]

Just watch those f***ing Lays Potato chip ads. They started running the ads before he even played for the team and I hated him ever since.

 

[RebuildinVan]

Messier/Canucks....please end thread

 

[racerjoe]

@Sonny Lamateena, even as a guy who has largely bitter memories about Messier's time in Vancouver, I do agree that some of the individual reasons that people cite for disliking him have been built up in importance over time. In fact, I wrote a long piece about this time period for the podcast Pucks on Net recounting how I remember the atmosphere around the team being at the time, and one of the points I made is that people didn't find stuff like the captaincy or the #11 all that scandalous at the time, but once he started souring on us they became reasons added to the pile. Just my recollection.

All that said, there should be a correction on this point:

Burke never actually tried to bring him back. That was his (rather transparent) excuse as to why he wasn't picking up the team option on Messier's contract for two more seasons at $6 million each. Instead, he was going to let the deal lapse and "try to re-sign him" at a cheaper price. If this attempt ever truly happened, I suspect it lasted about 5 minutes, if that – they were more than happy to get out of that deal and it's doubtful Messier had any interest either. That pronouncement by Burke was their way of saving face over what had become a very unpopular association.

Sometimes hindsight in these things is important though. Ballard trade at first or Booth trade for that matter neither looked bad at the time of their trade. Or us not signing Willie. All things I think at the time made sense but in hindsight were mistakes of different degrees. We might even be able to put the Lui as captain in there, but I don't remember the reaction.

 

[supercanuck]

Can a mod please just lock this thread and let it fall to page 5,00,000 of the forum so that I don't have to see his disgusting name when I enter the Canucks board?

 

[PunkRockLocke]

He was total douche his whole time here. Stole the C from Linden. Ran the team for Keenan. Team missed the playoffs all of his seasons here.

Just horrible. Best to forget he ever played for us

 

[Horse McHindu]

He was total *****e his whole time here. Stole the C from Linden. Ran the team for Keenan. Team missed the playoffs all of his seasons here.

Just horrible. Best to forget he ever played for us

He didn't steal the C from Trevor. When Messier signed with Vancouver, the media made a HUGE deal about it........to the point where the media themselves started saying stuff like, "how can Linden justify wearing the C now that Messier is here. Messier is the captain regardless of what it says on Linden's jersey."

Don't believe me? Look up Kent Gilchrist from 1997. I can't remember if he worked for the Province or Vancouver Sun, but that guy definitely said that. Many more writers as well!

Linden gave up the captaincy by his own free will so that it would not be an issue come training camp.

The amount of misinformation with regards to the Messier situation is insane.

The team sucked BEFORE Messier got here. They missed the playoffs. The core had become stale. The owners bringing in Messier as a "missing piece" was utterly ridiculous to begin with. Especially someone that was as old as Messier.

 

[MS]

I don't really begrudge Messier for the Maki flap — it's hard to expect a new player to know the local backstory behind a jersey number. That was management's responsibility to sort out and they handled it poorly.

But my god, Messier's play here was atrocious. No one was expecting a Hart-worthy performance, but at the very least we were hoping for the guy billed as an intense competitor who would do anything to win. Instead we got a lazy floater making $6 million a year who spent more time dictating trades from the bench than actually skating in the Canucks' defensive zone. If he'd put in an honest effort on the ice, maybe all the other circus sideshow stuff would be easier to take. But he didn't.

Yup.

The whole Maki thing is a total red herring - that bit wasn't his fault, it was the fault of embarrassingly weak management and ownership. Anyone who uses this is the center of their criticism of him doesn't really understand what happened. Of course he asked for his number that he'd worn his whole career and seemed to be available, of course he had no idea who Wayne Maki was, and it was the job of management to uphold the history and integrity of the franchise and say no and they failed utterly.

The reason he's the most disgusting Canuck of all time is simple and two-fold :

1) he was hired to be a player and lead from the dressing room, but thought he was going to be the GM here. Courtside NBA seats with the owner, meddled in personnel decisions, left the team on road trips to hang out at his compound in South Carolina, did nothing to actually lead and unify the team.

2) his on-ice effort was absolutely abysmal. Like, embarrassing. He was still an effective PP player but 5-on-5 he just glided around making zero effort physically or on the backcheck. Literally every single shift he played, when the puck was coming back toward our zone, you'd see #11 slowly gliding back way behind the play not moving his feet, doing nothing. A guy like Kovalev on his worst day had nothing on how absurdly lazy Messier's on-ice performance was here. It was a complete joke, and he should have been ashamed every time he cashed a paycheck for it.

I can't remember a solid bodycheck he threw in 3 years here (and that isn't something that's faded with time, I absolutely remember having this thought at the time) and the only physical thing he ever did was a bizarre attack of Josef Beranek for no apparent reason off a faceoff to start a 2nd period in Edmonton.

I have a hard time believing that anyone defending this player actually followed the team when he was here, and Ranger fans who have no idea what happened here can go get stuffed.

 

[Dissonance Jr]

I can't remember a solid bodycheck he threw in 3 years here (and that isn't something that's faded with time, I absolutely remember having this thought at the time) and the only physical thing he ever did was a bizarre attack of Josef Beranek for no apparent reason off a faceoff to start a 2nd period in Edmonton.

Went to look up a video because I'd completely forgotten about that. Best part here is Robson exclaiming, "We haven't seen that from Messier in two seasons." (And Beranek was one of the softest players in the league, so it's not like beating him up was some huge feat to begin with.)

 

[TruKnyte]

Imagine Marchand coming to Vancouver and becoming team captain in 2015. I just vomited a little in my mouth thinking of it.

 

[Shareefruck]

People dislike Messier, not necessarily because of lack of contribution on the ice or even effort level (which were both disappointing), but because he revealed himself to be a classless, narcissistic/egotistical fraud and scum bag individual who turned out to be as big of a locker room cancer as I've personally seen in hockey.

Mark Messier Leadership Award - Wikipedia

The Mark Messier Leadership Award is a National Hockey League (NHL) award that recognizes an individual as a superior leader within their sport, and as a contributing member of society. The award is given to a player selected by Hockey Hall of Fame center Mark Messier to honor an individual who leads by positive example through on-ice performance, motivation of team members and a dedication to community activities and charitable causes. It was first awarded during 2006–07 NHL season and sponsored by Cold-fX.

Uhmm... is this post intended to be evidence of the contrary or something? You weren't actually interested in why people feel the way they do about him? You already had a strong existing opinion and wanted to dismiss those who disagreed with you or something?

 

[someguy44]

Everyone only remembers or mentions Messier's guaranteed of winning game 6 against the Devils in 94, yet no one ever remembers or talks about Messier's guaranteed that the Nucks would make the playoffs right after he signed that huge contract. Yup, he guaranteed it, but never delivered or even put in the effort on that guarantee. This is just 1 among many reasons to dislike him.

 

[Jyrki21]

Everyone only remembers or mentions Messier's guaranteed of winning game 6 against the Devils in 94, yet no one ever remembers or talks about Messier's guaranteed that the Nucks would make the playoffs right after he signed that huge contract. Yup, he guaranteed it, but never delivered or even put in the effort on that guarantee. This is just 1 among many reasons to dislike him.

But then at least when he got back to New York he returned the team to gl— oh.