Mario Lemieux vs Today's NHL

[Midnight Judges]

Lemieux's scoring went down drastically as the league changed, just like everyone else.

 

[Stephen]

Open ice hits aren't common anymore because the game is too fast and the players are too good now for a dman to abandon his position and go for a hit without getting burned it's hard to step up and hit a guy like mcdavid when he's coming full speed he forces guys to back up.

I'd say guys like Muni, Hatcher, Richardson, Kasparaitis, Samuelsson might not be in the proper position to stop up and nail McDavid in open ice on a regular basis. Over the long run the cheap shots would pile up and ruin him though.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Lemieux's scoring went down drastically as the league changed, just like everyone else.

I think his age and health played massive roles in his production.

 

[easton117]

Maybe, just maybe, there were actually more supertars in the 70's, 80's and early 90's than there are today. Back when NHLers who played in those eras were growing up, you didn't have the coach of an 11 or 12 year-old team teaching "systems". You let the kids play and develop creativity, puck handling and speed. Bobby Orr said it best... he developed his skill by playing with 30 kids, one puck and no adults. You needed to develop skill just to stay in the game.

Thankfully, the powers that be are returning (slowly) to a more "creativity-based" way to teach the game, and to teach skills.

I'm confident in saying that when comparing eras, you can assume the Bobby Orr of 1971 or the Guy Lafleur of 1977 would be just as dynamic today, all things being equal (in other words, they benefit from the same equipment, training, nutrition, etc. that modern players do). Especially in today's world, where smaller players (like McDavid, Gaudreau or Ehlers) are being allowed to showcase their skills

I don’t think there’s fewer stars today at all. The gap between the lower end players and the high end guys has just become smaller.

20,30,40 years ago, whenever. It’s the Kramer in the dojo routine. Systems, coaching, training etc have all helped the low end dojo kids get better. The high end guys can only improve so much. They’re already high end.

Anyone who thinks Lemieux would put up 150+ points in this league as it’s played now is glorifying the past without any regard for the present.

 

[Bank Shot]

With prime-Lemieux in the league, powerplays either go up (for his team) because he draws a ton of them, or the other team doesn't take penalties and he just skates through them.

Or they just don't call half the penalties taken on him, like every other star player.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I don’t think there’s fewer stars today at all. The gap between the lower end players and the high end guys has just become smaller.

20,30,40 years ago, whenever. It’s the Kramer in the dojo routine. Systems, coaching, training etc have all helped the low end dojo kids get better. The high end guys can only improve so much. They’re already high end.

Anyone who thinks Lemieux would put up 150+ points in this league as it’s played now is glorifying the past without any regard for the present.

Although the percentage that he would be ahead of McDavid or whoever is second would be the same.

And why wouldn't a superstar or legend benefit from better training and equipment as well? Bobby Hull and Bobby Orr wore ankle weights... you don't think they would be far faster in today's skates/equipment?

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Or they just don't call half the penalties taken on him, like every other star player.

To stop Lemieux, the penalties would have to be much more egregious than the current star players.

 

[Bank Shot]

Although the percentage that he would be ahead of McDavid or whoever is second would be the same.

And why wouldn't a superstar or legend benefit from better training and equipment as well? Bobby Hull and Bobby Orr wore ankle weights... you don't think they would be far faster in today's skates/equipment?

Do all the depth players from the 80's and 90's retroactively get power skating lessons 2-3 times a year, and get to go to summer skill development camps like kids do nowadays?

The outliers are always the outliers, but the rest of the field is so much better now then it was then. It's not even comparable.

Guys like Bobby Orr and Hull and Gretzky and Mario would still be superstars now, but the field has caught up. I don't see them dominating their peers to quite the same level, because all the peers are better.

 

[Highmarker]

I'd say guys like Muni, Hatcher, Richardson, Kasparaitis, Samuelsson might not be in the proper position to stop up and nail McDavid in open ice on a regular basis. Over the long run the cheap shots would pile up and ruin him though.

Why would they ruin McDavid specifically when other players who played with those guys got by?

 

[DannyGallivan]

Do all the depth players from the 80's and 90's retroactively get power skating lessons 2-3 times a year, and get to go to summer skill development camps like kids do nowadays?

The outliers are always the outliers, but the rest of the field is so much better now then it was then. It's not even comparable.

Guys like Bobby Orr and Hull and Gretzky and Mario would still be superstars now, but the field has caught up. I don't see them dominating their peers to quite the same level, because all the peers are better.

Except that you can use the point that there were far, far fewer jobs in the NHL back then. Yes, more players from other countries contribute to the NHL today, so it all may equal out in that regard. But the fact is that with six, 12, sixteen and 21 teams (and in the 60's and 70's you essentially had three lines instead of four), it was far more "cut throat" to make the NHL and stay.

And while the weaker players up until only a few years ago could compete by clutching, grabbing and interfering, you can't do that anymore. Ultimately, that is the biggest reason why Lemieux - and all the finesse players from that era - would be like kids at the candy store today.

 

[Future GOAT]

Or they just don't call half the penalties taken on him, like every other star player.

Exactly. Just like they ignore most of the penalties taken against McDavid.

 

[Bank Shot]

Except that you can use the point that there were far, far fewer jobs in the NHL back then. Yes, more players from other countries contribute to the NHL today, so it all may equal out in that regard. But the fact is that with six, 12, sixteen and 21 teams (and in the 60's and 70's you essentially had three lines instead of four), it was far more "cut throat" to make the NHL and stay.

In the 6 team era you didn't have players lapping the field every season in scoring like you did in the expansion era. It was only in the 70's and 80s after the massive expansion of teams did you have guys scoring ridiculously more than the other top players season after season.

Do you find it odd at all that only the expansion eras produced players that towered over their peers to such a degree?

The 6 team area from the 40s to the 60s actually supports the idea that when the competition is even, that it's harder for the top players to pull away.

And while the weaker players up until only a few years ago could compete by clutching, grabbing and interfering, you can't do that anymore. Ultimately, that is the biggest reason why Lemieux - and all the finesse players from that era - would be like kids at the candy store today.

Interference away from the puck is more advanced than it ever was.
You also don't have guys like Mario and Wayne playing 25 minutes a night anymore like they did in the 80s.
They have defensive systems rather than just anointing one guy as a shadow.
Finesse players from past eras probably would like today's game more than the one they played in, but I don't think all of them would automatically be better in today's game.

 

[DannyGallivan]

In the 6 team era you didn't have players lapping the field every season in scoring like you did in the expansion era. It was only in the 70's and 80s after the massive expansion of teams did you have guys scoring ridiculously more than the other top players season after season.

Do you find it odd at all that only the expansion eras produced players that towered over their peers to such a degree?

The 6 team area from the 40s to the 60s actually supports the idea that when the competition is even, that it's harder for the top players to pull away.



Interference away from the puck is more advanced than it ever was.
You also don't have guys like Mario and Wayne playing 25 minutes a night anymore like they did in the 80s.
They have defensive systems rather than just anointing one guy as a shadow.
Finesse players from past eras probably would like today's game more than the one they played in, but I don't think all of them would automatically be better in today's game.

That's one of the reasons I consider Bobby Hull the greatest goal scorer of all time. The difference between his goal total and other players' in the mega-tight 1960's was pretty impressive.

 

[WPGDEVILS]

Goalies have came a long way since Mario was in his prime. Everyone points out the wooden sticks but don't realize goalie equipment has came even further. That said i say he gets around 125 points and close to 55 goals.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

People saying the defense was terrible.... are you aware Lemieux played into the 2000's? The goaltending and defense wasn't much different than now after the early 90's.

The 80's yeah it was terrible.

Not just that, Lemieux was even Crosby's linemate. He played at the same time as relatively recent superstars such as Forsberg, Sakic, Kariya, Lindros, Selanne, Jagr, etc between 1991-97, and lapped the field against them by a huge margin.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Goalies have came a long way since Mario was in his prime. Everyone points out the wooden sticks but don't realize goalie equipment has came even further. That said i say he gets around 125 points and close to 55 goals.

If he gets 125 points, then McDavid gets 85.

 

[Future GOAT]

If he gets 125 points, then McDavid gets 85.

More like 100-110.

 

[bobbyking]

If he gets 125 points, then McDavid gets 85.

McDavid just had 108 u make no sense

 

[DannyGallivan]

Goalies have came a long way since Mario was in his prime. Everyone points out the wooden sticks but don't realize goalie equipment has came even further. That said i say he gets around 125 points and close to 55 goals.

...by the all-star break.

 

[DannyGallivan]

McDavid just had 108 u make no sense

Exactly. The point is that Lemieux would have a good 40 points more on second place in today's day and age. I tend to think it would be more like 110 for McDavid and 150 for Mario.

 

[Future GOAT]

Exactly. The point is that Lemieux would have a good 40 points more on second place in today's day and age. I tend to think it would be more like 110 for McDavid and 150 for Mario.

As a person whose favorite player all time is Lemieux he would be better than McDavid but not by that much. He'd have about 15 to 20 points on current McDavid, and that's with his healthy PP production.

 

[DannyGallivan]

As a person whose favorite player all time is Lemieux he would be better than McDavid but not by that much. He'd have about 15 to 20 points on current McDavid, and that's with his healthy PP production.

Perhaps future McDavid, but not current McDavid. That is, perhaps we've yet to see how good McDavid will be.

 

[Bustedprospect]

Nobody is getting to 150-160 in this league as the game works now.

Powerplays are down and this will cost a lot of points for Lemieux and most other stars.

Players are no longer playing 25-27 minutes a game. Coasting and floating around in long shifts on the ice is a thing of the past. Gassed players on long shifts would get smoked by the fast 3rd and 4th liners of NHL today.

Shooting 20-25% is not sustainable due to goaltending, video scouting, and team defense.

Lemeiux gets to around 130-140 in this league. It's still a lot since 110 is a dream for most generational stars of this era.

Elevated powerplays and some minor changes to the game and 150 could be within reach.
Jagr, Thornton, and Crosby topped at 120 with elevated scoring/powerplays.

Or they just don't call half the penalties taken on him, like every other star player.

Yeah pretty much how the game is played today.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Lemieux's scoring went down drastically as the league changed, just like everyone else.

But he was still scoring considerably more than anyone else.

His 1.77 PPG in 2001 is still the highest of any player post-1996. The closest is a prime Sidney Crosby with a 1.68 and 1.61 in small fractions of seasons, then the next best full season was ‘99 Jagr with a 1.57.

Which is to say, Lemieux was 16 points/82 games better than the next best player of the past two decades, in the middle of Dead Puck, when Lemieux was 35 and hadn’t played in three years. It’s really hard to quantify just how ludicrously good he was with the puck on his stick. He would shred this league just like he did the Dead Puck league.

 

[Damisoph]

Lemieux without all the clutching and grabbing would have been a bad, bad man. He already was but maybe his back issues wouldn't have been so bad.