Larry Brooks: Marc Staal wants to stay in New York

[Beer League Sniper]

I like Staal, but you can't afford to pay a 2nd pair defender $6M per. He's never going to be a top pair guy with McDonagh blocking him. He either needs to take less, which he won't, or we need to trade him to a defensively deficient team that will utilize and value him as a top pair guy. Skjei will be ready in a year or so to take those minutes, so you sign a stop-gap 2LD, or get one back as a downgrade in a Staal trade. We can't tie up the amount of cap it will take to get Staal signed, not if we want to have a competent offense.

 

[NYR Viper]

I like Staal, but you can't afford to pay a 2nd pair defender $6M per. He's never going to be a top pair guy with McDonagh blocking him. He either needs to take less, which he won't, or we need to trade him to a defensively deficient team that will utilize and value him as a top pair guy. Skjei will be ready in a year or so to take those minutes, so you sign a stop-gap 2LD, or get one back as a downgrade in a Staal trade. We can't tie up the amount of cap it will take to get Staal signed, not if we want to have a competent offense.

Yes you can. 6 million for 4-5 years and by year 2 or 3 it's a very good contract.

 

[Fletch]

Yes you can. 6 million for 4-5 years and by year 2 or 3 it's a very good contract.

the question is, what will the Rangers' roster look like in years 1-2.

 

[Beer League Sniper]

Yes you can. 6 million for 4-5 years and by year 2 or 3 it's a very good contract.

I disagree. A 2nd pair defensive defenseman is going to cost $6M? If I'm paying that much for a player on the 2nd pair, I expect some offense. Staal can't provide that, so he gets less. Now, a first pair shut-down defenseman, I'd gladly give $6M to, probably even more. Staal is certainly capable of filling that role on many teams in this league. However, Staal is never going to be that with Ryan McDonagh on this team. That's why it really only makes sense to trade him.

 

[TheTakedown]

1 2nd pairing guy should cost somewhere around 3.5-5.5M IMO, depending on his all-around game.

If Staal is willing to take a Girardi contract with say an extra year, then you do it... Hell, give him as many years as he wants, theres no cap penalty if he retires and the contract is structured correctly/expires within this current CBA (just to be safe).

 

[free0717]

I disagree. A 2nd pair defensive defenseman is going to cost $6M? If I'm paying that much for a player on the 2nd pair, I expect some offense. Staal can't provide that, so he gets less. Now, a first pair shut-down defenseman, I'd gladly give $6M to, probably even more. Staal is certainly capable of filling that role on many teams in this league. However, Staal is never going to be that with Ryan McDonagh on this team. That's why it really only makes sense to trade him.

Yes, but next year we will be in a jam with Zucc, MSL, Step, Hags looking for new contracts.

I would have traded Staal @ the draft. Thats where we would have gotten the best return.

 

[NYR Viper]

the question is, what will the Rangers' roster look like in years 1-2.

Total unknown with the turnover that has happened over the past couple of years. People freak out about the cap in 4 years. If they need to trade someone, that's a GOOD thing. It replenishes the system

I disagree. A 2nd pair defensive defenseman is going to cost $6M? If I'm paying that much for a player on the 2nd pair, I expect some offense. Staal can't provide that, so he gets less. Now, a first pair shut-down defenseman, I'd gladly give $6M to, probably even more. Staal is certainly capable of filling that role on many teams in this league. However, Staal is never going to be that with Ryan McDonagh on this team. That's why it really only makes sense to trade him.

Staal is a 1st pairing shut-down defenseman. He plays against some of the best players in the world every night. He is an absolute rock on the back-end. Who cares that this team has McDonagh. D-men can play 20-25 minutes a night. They have HUGE impacts on every game. Rick Nash makes 7.8 million. How much does he play?

1 2nd pairing guy should cost somewhere around 3.5-5.5M IMO, depending on his all-around game.

If Staal is willing to take a Girardi contract with say an extra year, then you do it... Hell, give him as many years as he wants, theres no cap penalty if he retires and the contract is structured correctly/expires within this current CBA (just to be safe).

I think that's the goal. Ideally that's what they should be shooting for but I'd go as high as 6.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I disagree. A 2nd pair defensive defenseman is going to cost $6M? If I'm paying that much for a player on the 2nd pair, I expect some offense. Staal can't provide that, so he gets less. Now, a first pair shut-down defenseman, I'd gladly give $6M to, probably even more. Staal is certainly capable of filling that role on many teams in this league. However, Staal is never going to be that with Ryan McDonagh on this team. That's why it really only makes sense to trade him.

This line of thinking is ass-backwards. In essence, you're saying that it makes no sense to have 2 #1 shutdown defensemen, so lets get a 2nd pairing LD instead (whoever that might be) because it fits your narrative -- it also happens to weaken the team in the process. Are you forgetting the top 4 defenseman and Lundqvist is whats made this team successful over the past several years? Given Dan Boyle isn't exactly a defensive dynamo is even MORE incentive to retain Staal.

 

[Fletch]

Total unknown with the turnover that has happened over the past couple of years. People freak out about the cap in 4 years. If they need to trade someone, that's a GOOD thing. It replenishes the system



Staal is a 1st pairing shut-down defenseman. He plays against some of the best players in the world every night. He is an absolute rock on the back-end. Who cares that this team has McDonagh. D-men can play 20-25 minutes a night. They have HUGE impacts on every game. Rick Nash makes 7.8 million. How much does he play?



I think that's the goal. Ideally that's what they should be shooting for but I'd go as high as 6.

Guess what I was getting at is what it looks like given the cap. My biggest issue with Staal, and I'm a Staal fan, is his affordability within the cap next season, and that is the hump I'm struggling to get over. Not so much worried about the cap in four years - worried about next season, especially with the contracts that need re-upped

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Guess what I was getting at is what it looks like given the cap. My biggest issue with Staal, and I'm a Staal fan, is his affordability within the cap next season, and that is the hump I'm struggling to get over. Not so much worried about the cap in four years - worried about next season, especially with the contracts that need re-upped

If you had to choose between Staal at $6M per vs. Zuccarello at $5.5M per, which one would you choose?

 

[Beer League Sniper]

This line of thinking is ass-backwards. In essence, you're saying that it makes no sense to have 2 #1 shutdown defensemen, so lets get a 2nd pairing LD instead (whoever that might be) because it fits your narrative -- it also happens to weaken the team in the process. Are you forgetting the top 4 defenseman and Lundqvist is whats made this team successful over the past several years? Given Dan Boyle isn't exactly a defensive dynamo is even MORE incentive to retain Staal.

I thought a basic understanding of the salary cap would be common knowledge to anyone reading my post. I don't know how many different ways I can say that you can't pay a 2nd pair dman $6M without creating deficiencies in other areas on your roster. You can disagree, but to say that the logic is "ass backwards" is little more than trolling, and contributes absolutely nothing. Par for the course, I suppose.

 

[NYR Viper]

Guess what I was getting at is what it looks like given the cap. My biggest issue with Staal, and I'm a Staal fan, is his affordability within the cap next season, and that is the hump I'm struggling to get over. Not so much worried about the cap in four years - worried about next season, especially with the contracts that need re-upped

I think he can fit at around 5.5-6 IF the Rangers infuse some youth into the line-up again.

I have heard rumblings of a 75 million cap

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
CapGeek Armchair GM Roster
FORWARDS
Rick Nash ($7.800m) / Derek Stepan ($5.500m) / Martin St Louis ($4.750m)
Chris Kreider ($2.475m) / Derick Brassard ($5.000m) / Mats Zuccarello ($5.000m)
Carl Hagelin ($3.300m) / J.T. Miller ($0.894m) / Jesper Fast ($0.805m)
Tanner Glass ($1.450m) / Dominic Moore ($1.500m) / Matthew Lombardi ($0.800m)
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan McDonagh ($4.700m) / Dan Girardi ($5.500m)
Marc Staal ($6.000m) / Dan Boyle ($4.500m)
John Moore ($1.000m) / Kevin Klein ($2.900m)
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($8.500m)
Cameron Talbot ($0.563m)
BUYOUTS
Wade Redden ($0.000m)
Brad Richards ($0.000m)
BONUS OVERAGE
$0
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $75,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $72,936,667; BONUSES: $445,000
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $2,063,333

I think it's do-able, it may be tight, but losing a top-pairing work-horse like Staal is not a good option either.

 

[Trxjw]

It'll be a shame to lose Staal because the Rangers put themselves in a bad position financially. Having a first-pairing caliber defender on your second pairing is a huge benefit. Especially when you don't really have even a 2nd pairing caliber replacement ready to go in your system.

I'm hopeful that by the end of the year, McIlrath should be ready for full-time 3rd pairing duty and we'll be able to move Klein to free up cap. Same might be true for Allen replacing Moore. However, it's tough to say that the Rangers could allocate $6M to a guy who isn't seeing first-pairing minutes.

 

[NYR Viper]

If you had to choose between Staal at $6M per vs. Zuccarello at $5.5M per, which one would you choose?

I'd choose both and look to shed elsewhere. Those (2) are the most important UFA's at the end of this year and should be priorities.

Stepan, Hagelin, Miller, Moore (possibly), Fast, Allen, Miller, McIlrath, Lindberg

The Rangers have a lot of valuable RFA's at the ned of next year. They have a lot of players who need to prove they are NHL ready or close to that point as well as some of these guys are no longer spring chickens. Fast, Lindberg, McIlrath, Allen.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I thought a basic understanding of the salary cap would be common knowledge to anyone reading my post. I don't know how many different ways I can say that you can't pay a 2nd pair dman $6M without creating deficiencies in other areas on your roster. You can disagree, but to say that the logic is "ass backwards" is little more than trolling, and contributes absolutely nothing. Par for the course, I suppose.

Actually, fretting over a couple million dollars and removing a lynchpin of the defense is whats actually contributing nothing to the discourse.

Why is it that the "trade Staal" group usually provides more questions than answers?

 

[Fletch]

I think he can fit at around 5.5-6 IF the Rangers infuse some youth into the line-up again.

I have heard rumblings of a 75 million cap



I think it's do-able, it may be tight, but losing a top-pairing work-horse like Staal is not a good option either.

he does fit in, with some space (well, I think there could be higher costs). This assumes a nice jump in the cap. If not, it may not work and gives them not so much wiggle room to add a UFA forward (if they desire that route over MSL). My thought has also been that Klein would be the one to go because the savings would be to pay others. But again, it's tight, and that's my only problem. I'm doubting it gets done before training camp though.

 

[NYR Viper]

he does fit in, with some space (well, I think there could be higher costs). This assumes a nice jump in the cap. If not, it may not work and gives them not so much wiggle room to add a UFA forward (if they desire that route over MSL). My thought has also been that Klein would be the one to go because the savings would be to pay others. But again, it's tight, and that's my only problem. I'm doubting it gets done before training camp though.

I agree there as well. I am hopeful that McIlrath will be ready by that time and could come in as a cheap replacement.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

It'll be a shame to lose Staal because the Rangers put themselves in a bad position financially. Having a first-pairing caliber defender on your second pairing is a huge benefit. Especially when you don't really have even a 2nd pairing caliber replacement ready to go in your system.

Agreed. I am shocked by this "you cant pay a 2nd pairing defenseman $6M per year!" stuff. Well, what if hes a first pairing defenseman who happens to be on the 2nd pair because the defense is/has been very strong?

The team, with and without cap space, has consistently failed to make the offense better. Now the approach is to make the defense worse? No thanks.

 

[pld459666]

Staal has always made more than Girardi. Staal got a bigger 2nd contract than Girardi got as a 3rd contract. Girardi is on his 4th Ranger contract.

$45M committed to 11 players next season

Lundqvist
McD
Girardi
Boyle
Klein
Nash
Brassard
Kreider
Moore
Glass
Lombardi

The Rangers can play around with the last two.

Arbitration for Stepan and Hagelin. Moore if he signs a 1 year SPC.

Group III for Staal,MSL and Zuccarello.

How much will cost to re-sign Stepan,Hagelin,Staal,MSL and Zuccarello?

Stepan took a bridge contract last September. $6M.

Hagelin will be one year away from group III. $4M range(probably more) in a long-term deal.

$6M for Staal

$5M for MSL

$4.5M-$5M for Zuccarello

$26M

$71M for 16 players

Same problem all over again. The cap goes up and the cap increase goes to paying increases.

And here is why it is bass ackwards to trade away 1st round picks in three straight seasons.

Teams need cheap young (top end) talent to back fill the guys that teams lose due to the cap constraints.

In our case, we have to hope that Allen, McIlrath and or Skjei step in and plays meaningful NHL minutes no later than next season (15-16)

Up front, we have to hope that Kristo gets his shi t together and that Bunch comes over and plays well and that DuClair is healed from the concussion.

Those are some pretty big If's.

Unless Nash gets traded at the 2015 Draft cash will be tight

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

And here is why it is bass ackwards to trade away 1st round picks in three straight seasons.

Teams need cheap young (top end) talent to back fill the guys that teams lose due to the cap constraints.

In our case, we have to hope that Allen, McIlrath and or Skjei step in and plays meaningful NHL minutes no later than next season (15-16)

Up front, we have to hope that Kristo gets his shi t together and that Bunch comes over and plays well and that DuClair is healed from the concussion.

Those are some pretty big If's.

Unless Nash gets traded at the 2015 Draft cash will be tight

Those 1st rounders will hurt in 3-4 years, not now. They wouldn't be contributing anytime soon.

In Staal's case, I just can't get over how many fans are willing to take a leap of faith rather than nail down a proven player.

 

[Fletch]

If you had to choose between Staal at $6M per vs. Zuccarello at $5.5M per, which one would you choose?

good question...can I answer in February? I've stated many times, and you have also, that this team went as far as it did because of defense/team defense and Lundqvist. Stated that Staal was an integral part of helping to slowdown Crosby and that propelled them past the Pens and ultimately into the finals. At the same time, goals seem to be coming at a premium to the Rangers and you do need to score goals to win. This team seems pretty thin on goal scoring and Zucc is a top point-getter on this team and currently I do not see who replaces him. Sometimes I think it's easier to replace defense (not necessarily a person, but that defensive person is less-missed given the system and the goalie) than it is to replace points. Sooooo...I'm punting at the moment and waiting it out. If Zucc picks up where he left off, I may lean more towards him.

 

[Ola]

That's not true about Torts. At first he had his defense pinch in at all times and Staal was god awful at it, and still is. Then when Torts realized the team lacked talent he stopped the safe is death approach and got real conservative

He took over in what March and this didn't even last to the PO series against Washington. We did this for like a Month or what? He was here for four years. You are reffering to one month of 48..

And it was really really dumb to start with, you pinch in when (i) you get an opening and (ii) you have support. We tried to force it by pinching in all the time, it was very odd. We lacked talent to do it? Have you ever seen a team pinch in like that in the NHL on a regular basis? Yeah, maybe the absolute most high flying dynamic offenses when you got like a Forsberg or Gretzky feeding the Ds and they pwn the opposition 5 on 5...

Torts has just completely failed to realize what the game after the lockout is about. He took Tampa to the last overall spot in the entire league. Here in NY we lived on shotblocking and Hank all the time, while constantly being completely hammered by the teams we played against. Look what he did in Vancouver to the Sedins and Edler and co., extremely poor numbers for them. Why is that?

The answer is simple, he didn't know how to coach a transition game in the NHL. He has his Ds send the puck up ice in straight lines ASAP, and you get the quality on those passes that you deserve.

Niklas Lidström talked about Erik Karlsson. The first and only thing he focused on was that it shouldn't be underrated just how big of an impact it has had on Karlsson's game that Ottawa from the get go just have let him hit the ice and play his style. Lidström said that the diffrence in Karlsson's development could have been monumental had he ended up playing for "one of those teams that just throw the puck away", then the commentator said something like "Like for Tortorella?" and Lidström laughed and nodded.

And its not about talent. Go back and watch old tapes of New Jersey Devils. Look at how smart guys like Daneyko and Colin White moves the puck. Simple short passes. Look at like Oduya and Hjalmarsson in Chicago. Look at Alex Edler in Vancouver when he played for AV. Staal should have been on a higher level than those guys, but he is not.

It has a tremendous effect on a young Ds game that he is allowed to hit the ice and move the puck and make plays with it, not just send it away. To see further proof of it, go back to like 2002-2003, who are the highest scoring Ds in the game? Like mediocre older players, but who got a chance to grow up "not" playing against the trap (Scott Neidermayer also counts into this group because he didn't grow up playing for a team that had adjustted to playing -- against -- the trap). Who is the best offensive D that broke into the league from like 96' to 02'? Correct, there is barely a single example of a good offensive D that broke into the leauge during that age. Brian Campbell and Dan Boyle.. And we played the same style that is designed to beat the trap for 4 years. For Staal's 2-5th year in the league. Of course it has hurt his offensive game.

 

[eco's bones]

Those 1st rounders will hurt in 3-4 years, not now. They wouldn't be contributing anytime soon.

In Staal's case, I just can't get over how many fans are willing to take a leap of faith rather than nail down a proven player.

Stepan's the biggest priority. The Rangers would be too weak at center without him. The Brassard deal does not bode well here--it ratchets up what Derek will ask for. We can do what they did with Zucc this year to Stepan for next year--kick the can down the road a bit but we're going to have to pay him eventually.

Between Zucc who is an offensive catalyst and Staal a legit shutdown defensemen with limited offense who still may be dealing with the after effects of a nasty facial/eye injury. It comes down to choose your poison if you don't have the money to bring one back. St. Louis is a shorter term deal. We can walk away from him in a year (and maybe have enough for all of Stepan, Staal and Zucc) but the price of Callahan and two first rounders is hard to swallow. Hagelin is an extraordinary skater with a lot of intangibles but is not a player on the level of the others.

Possible replacements for any of the above:

Potentially Skjei replaces Staal within two-three years. Big rangy left side stay at home defender. Size, skating and positioning.

Duclair's speed could replace Hagelin's--he won't replace Carl's defensive game but he probably would add more scoring.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Stepan's the biggest priority. The Rangers would be too weak at center without him. The Brassard deal does not bode well here--it ratchets up what Derek will ask for. We can do what they did with Zucc this year to Stepan for next year--kick the can down the road a bit but we're going to have to pay him eventually.

Between Zucc who is an offensive catalyst and Staal a legit shutdown defensemen with limited offense who still may be dealing with the after effects of a nasty facial/eye injury. It comes down to choose your poison if you don't have the money to bring one back. St. Louis is a shorter term deal. We can walk away from him in a year (and maybe have enough for all of Stepan, Staal and Zucc) but the price of Callahan and two first rounders is hard to swallow. Hagelin is an extraordinary skater with a lot of intangibles but is not a player on the level of the others.

Possible replacements for any of the above:

Potentially Skjei replaces Staal within two-three years. Big rangy left side stay at home defender. Size, skating and positioning.

Duclair's speed could replace Hagelin's--he won't replace Carl's defensive game but he probably would add more scoring.

Per the bolded, maybe.

But I think thats beyond even wishful thinking at this point. You get into very dangerous territory when you don't pay a proven NHL commodity because a prospect might fill the void -- especially when, in Skjei and Duclair's case, the prospect is still in college/juniors.

 

[Fletch]

Per the bolded, maybe.

But I think thats beyond even wishful thinking at this point. You get into very dangerous territory when you don't pay a proven NHL commodity because a prospect might fill the void -- especially when, in Skjei and Duclair's case, the prospect is still in college/juniors.

was thinking this was why they wanted Skjei go pro now to get a better feel for what they have and make a Staal decision in the New Year.