Player Discussion Marc Staal: Part II

[Kaapo Cabana]

Shattenkirk looked to be the better player to you? Really?

yes 11 times out of 10

 

[Edge]

The debate right now isn't whether Staal is a good NHL defenseman.

The debate now is whether the people who watch Lindgren and the other young defenseman feel they are ready to step into the best league in the world, on a nightly basis.

They don't love that Staal is getting burned 80 percent of the time; but they also have to weigh that against he benefit of putting a 21 or 22 year old defenseman into a similar position and whether that is the right option right now.

The focus is less about the impact Marc Staal's 2019 season will have on the club two or three years from now, so much as it is about the impact of Hajak or Lindgren's 2019 season and how to get those players to where they need to be two or three years from now.

 

[SA16]

The debate right now isn't whether Staal is a good NHL defenseman.

The debate now is whether the people who watch Lindgren and the other young defenseman feel they are ready to step into the best league in the world, on a nightly basis.

They don't love that Staal is getting burned 80 percent of the time; but they also have to weigh that against he benefit of putting a 21 or 22 year old defenseman into a similar position and whether that is the right option right now.

The focus is less about the impact Marc Staal's 2019 season will have on the club two or three years from now, so much as it is about the impact of Hajak or Lindgren's 2019 season and how to get those players to where they need to be two or three years from now.

It's not Staal vs the young dmen.

It's Staal vs. every available FA dman who they can sign for league minimum, many depth defenseman around the league that can be acquired for cheap, Brendan Smith as a dman, as well and the young dmen.

 

[Edge]

It's not Staal vs the young dmen.

It's Staal vs. every available FA dman who they can sign for league minimum, many depth defenseman around the league that can be acquired for cheap, Brendan Smith as a dman, as well and the young dmen.

And who would you like to sign/acquire and at what cost (and with what money from this summer)?

 

[Doctyl]

And who would you like to sign/acquire and at what cost (and with what money from this summer)?

Nakladal

 

[Edge]

Nakladal

And what if he's not interested in leaving in the confines of the KHL to come play for a non-playoff team, for the league minimum, in the most expensive city in the NHL, knowing that the plan is to replace sooner rather than later?

The challenge is that having the idea to someone doesn't always equate to their being a mutual interest.

And let's not pretend that the majority of this board would be okay with signing some other mediocre LHD, or playing Shattenkirk on the left side.

It would be the same level of complaining, with the same results, just with different names.

 

[hi]

Fredrik Claesson at eliteprospects.com

 

[Raspewtin]

Marc Staal is one of the absolute worst regulars in the NHL. by the virtue of that alone, i don’t think we would have a difficult time finding a replacement

your immediate options are call up Lindgren or play smith on D. both options are potential massive upgrades over trotting our Staals stinking corpse on the ice every night, staal is showing us every night he literally can’t play at an NHL pace anymore

 

[Edge]

Something to consider is that the Rangers are weighing playing a guy who isn't very good, but is what he is, versus playing a young talent and risking his development by throwing him into the fire before they think he's ready. Right now, I don't think they feel Lindgren is quite ready and I think the preference is for him to get his feet under him Hartford, and for Hajek, Fox and ADA (two freshmen and what essentially amounts to a sophomore) to get settled in as well.

Five years from now, it won't matter how bad Staal was. But it will definitely matter how we approached guys like Hajak and Lindgren.

Unless we're switching Staal out for a superstar, the difference is fairly marginal at this point. While frustrating to watch, I tend to think of Staal as more a sacrificial lamb.

 

[SA16]

And who would you like to sign/acquire and at what cost (and with what money from this summer)?

Smith can play D. Could have signed Claesson during the summer. Can sign someone like Schlemko now. Can trade like a 6th for some AHL defensive vet as well.

They play Staal because they like him and think he's actually good. They can very easily play Smith on D and then play McKegg at F or something instead.He's 3rd on the team in 5v5 TOI 50 seconds behind Trouba. They don't even limit his minutes like other teams do to the third pairing.

 

[Edge]

Smith can play D. Could have signed Claesson during the summer. Can sign someone like Schlemko now. Can trade like a 6th for some AHL defensive vet as well.

Eh, I think all of these look just as dreadful on this roster right now.

To me those moves would be just as messy, with the biggest appeal being that they are a different kind of mess than the one we've been forced to stare out.

But let's even play devil's advocate and go with that approach. Let's ignore that there's a reason no one else wants them. Let's ignore this board's reaction to trading a sixth for an AHL talent. Let's even ignore what happens if/when Lindgren or some young talent from the AHL is ready (and we're now carrying five LHDs including Staal, Smith, Skjei, the go we bring in, and the kid we called up), and say we make a move like that.

What kind of reasonable impact are we expecting? Even under the best circumstances, I see very little positive gain.

 

[usekakkorightquinn]

There is no evidence whatsoever to show you that Lindgren isn't ready. None. He outplayed Hajek in the pre-season. This is a rebuild. If a vet stinks and can't help young players here than he's worthless. Staal is worthless right now. I have no issue with our thickheaded coach playing Fox, Hajek and Lindgren all season, stinking, having a chance at a top 3 pick and going for a center or wing in the draft to add to the future. Hank is playing really well right now despite his GA average. This is the first year I think he will agree to move to a contender. Oilers might be a good match. Smith stinks and Tippett actually has them playing well. Shesterkin will be called up at the deadline. Hank's run is over here. Stinks the refs were so awful in the finals and cost the team a chance at the cup but he's not winning one here.

I expect Kreider, Hank, Fast, DeAngelo and Strome to all be dealt at the deadline or before then. Maybe Smith if he plays well enough.

 

[SA16]

Eh, I think all of these look just as dreadful on this roster right now.

To me those moves would be just as messy, with the biggest appeal being that they are a different kind of mess than the one we've been forced to stare out.

But let's even play devil's advocate and go with that approach. Let's ignore that there's a reason no one else wants them. Let's ignore this board's reaction to trading a sixth for an AHL talent. Let's even ignore what happens if/when Lindgren or some young talent from the AHL is ready (and we're now carrying five LHDs including Staal, Smith, Skjei, the go we bring in, and the kid we called up), and say we make a move like that.

What kind of reasonable impact are we expecting? Even under the best circumstances, I see very little positive gain.

The positive is that we are not intentionally playing a player who is worse than other options. All the little moves add up. Another easy solution is to drop him down to 12-14 minutes a game on the third pairing but they won't do that either. He has not played under 14 minutes once since last year and under 16 minutes 6 times. He never even gets benched in game for playing poorly when many other players do. It's a player evaluation issue. They think he is good and they like him.

 

[RangersFan1994]

Im just curious as to what its going to take to get him out of the lineup.

Because scoring an own goal is apparently not the answer.

having him getting hurt would be the best option and only option for him to not play. it is sad how much leeway that he gets mistake after mistake. most teams would have bought this clown out. he is an ECHL player at best.

 

[True Blue]

yes 11 times out of 10

And I would 0 times

 

[True Blue]

There is no evidence whatsoever to show you that Lindgren isn't ready. None. He outplayed Hajek in the pre-season. This is a rebuild. If a vet stinks and can't help young players here than he's worthless. Staal is worthless right now. I have no issue with our thickheaded coach playing Fox, Hajek and Lindgren all season, stinking, having a chance at a top 3 pick and going for a center or wing in the draft to add to the future. Hank is playing really well right now despite his GA average. This is the first year I think he will agree to move to a contender. Oilers might be a good match. Smith stinks and Tippett actually has them playing well. Shesterkin will be called up at the deadline. Hank's run is over here. Stinks the refs were so awful in the finals and cost the team a chance at the cup but he's not winning one here.

I expect Kreider, Hank, Fast, DeAngelo and Strome to all be dealt at the deadline or before then. Maybe Smith if he plays well enough.

The ignorance and lack of knowledge is fascinating.

# WeNeverGetACoherentThought

 

[Edge]

The positive is that we are not intentionally playing a player who is worse than other options. All the little moves add up. Another easy solution is to drop him down to 12-14 minutes a game on the third pairing but they won't do that either. He has not played under 14 minutes once since last year and under 16 minutes 6 times. He never even gets benched in game for playing poorly when many other players do. It's a player evaluation issue. They think he is good and they like him.

In hindsight, it's ironic that while we've focused on RHDs and centers, it's actually the black hole of LHDs that is staring us in the face.

Hajak is a rookie and I think has a future as a steady, but probably unspectacular defenseman. But he's a rookie all the same.

Skjei, though playing over his head, has completely regressed.

Staal is what he is at this point.

But again, I'm not entirely sure that throwing Hajak or Lindgren into the deep end is the right move at this point either.

I think they respect Staal, but I honestly think they don't love him per se. I think they recognize that he's essentially a space filler for right now.

They don't have to surrender anything to get an outcome that is only modest in its improvement, there's no one pounding on the door to eat his time, and there's not a heck of a lot of long-term impact.

It doesn't make it any less cringe worthy right now; but I feel like this was kind of known going into this season.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Nakladal

I think you're joking or only semi-serious but we can't sign him. IIHF rules prohibit that from happening

 

[will1066]

Staal is completely unreliable and a liability on every shift at this point. It's not even an exaggeration. Literally every shift, he's making something happen to go badly. Throwing in Lindgren, while he may suffer from the same things, at least it will be in vain of teaching and him growing. Even if not Lindgren, I'd rather have Smith back there instead of Staal at this point. A great Ranger, but he's toast.

 

[True Blue]

Staal is completely unreliable and a liability on every shift at this point. It's not even an exaggeration. Literally every shift, he's making something happen to go badly. Throwing in Lindgren, while he may suffer from the same things, at least it will be in vain of teaching and him growing. Even if not Lindgren, I'd rather have Smith back there instead of Staal at this point. A great Ranger, but he's toast.

You forget just how bad Smith looked over a larger sample size. He has found a role at the 4th line wing/7th defenseman who goes back to D for small spurts on the PK. Anything larger role and I get the feelings that the pitchforks would be out again for him, like they were last year.

 

[will1066]

You forget just how bad Smith looked over a larger sample size. He has found a role at the 4th line wing/7th defenseman who goes back to D for small spurts on the PK. Anything larger role and I get the feelings that the pitchforks would be out again for him, like they were last year.

I'm sure. I was just making a point of how bad Staal has become. I would prefer taking my chances on Lindgren and throw him into the cauldron.

 

[TheTakedown]

sometimes you gotta remember the good times

God damn, that caps goal... what a bomb

Do those stats measure how good of an influence he is on the younger players?

Yeah man, we need to count his intangibles/60. I hear that has a higher effect on the game compared to Girardi's Warrior/60 stat that we used to use

Shattenkirk looked to be the better player to you? Really?

On Tampa right now, he is absolutely the better player.

 

[TheTakedown]

delete

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

God damn, that caps goal... what a bomb



Yeah man, we need to count his intangibles/60. I hear that has a higher effect on the game compared to Girardi's Warrior/60 stat that we used to use



On Tampa right now, he is absolutely the better player.

On any team he is a better player.

staals most common forwards this year are zibanejad, Panarin and Buchnevixh aka what has been our top line for most of the season. The gap in numbers with and without Staal are staggering.

ditto DeAngelo who is his most common d partner. It’s flat out criminal putting him out there at this point. Literally anyone in the org signed to a pro contract is a better option.

 

[TheTakedown]

The debate right now isn't whether Staal is a good NHL defenseman.

The debate now is whether the people who watch Lindgren and the other young defenseman feel they are ready to step into the best league in the world, on a nightly basis.

They don't love that Staal is getting burned 80 percent of the time; but they also have to weigh that against he benefit of putting a 21 or 22 year old defenseman into a similar position and whether that is the right option right now.

The focus is less about the impact Marc Staal's 2019 season will have on the club two or three years from now, so much as it is about the impact of Hajak or Lindgren's 2019 season and how to get those players to where they need to be two or three years from now.

Let's say that Lindgren CAN replace Staal in the next 6 months.

What do you do with that Staal Contract? Ask him to retire after he gets his signing bonus? Try to get him on LTIR? 50% retention trade?

Marc Staal Contract Buyout Details - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Buyout Details

Cost Calculations

BUYOUT DATE	BASE SALARY REMAINING	S.BONUS REMAINING	YEARS REMAINING	BUYOUT LENGTH	AGE	BUYOUT RATIO	TOTAL COST	TOTAL SAVINGS	ANNUAL COST
Jun 15, 2020	$3,200,000	$1,000,000	1	2	33	2/3	$2,133,333	$1,066,667	$1,066,667

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Cap Hit Calculations

SEASON	INITIAL BASE SALARY	INITIAL CAP HIT	SIGNING BONUS	BUYOUT COST	POST-BUYOUT EARNINGS	SAVINGS	CAP HIT ( NYR)
2020-21	$3,200,000	$5,700,000	$1,000,000	$1,066,667	$2,066,667	$2,133,333	$3,566,667
2021-22	$0	$0	$0	$1,066,667	$1,066,667	-$1,066,667	$1,066,667
TOTAL	$3,200,000	$5,700,000	$1,000,000	$2,133,333	$3,133,333	$1,066,667	$4,633,334

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The only upside to buying him out next year is the rangers will get some cap savings that can help them ice a team next year, which could help counter the cost of the Shatts buyout.

BUYOUT HISTORY (4)					2019-20	2020-21	2021-22	2022-23	2023-24	2024-25	2025-26
Richards, Brad					$0	$0	$0	$0	$0	$0	$0
Girardi, Dan					$3,611,111	$1,111,111	$1,111,111	$1,111,111
Spooner, Ryan					$300,000	$300,000
Shattenkirk, Kevin					$1,483,333	$6,083,333	$1,433,333	$1,433,333
TOTAL					$5,394,444	$7,494,444	$2,544,444	$2,544,444

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Still, that's a lot of dead cap.