Marc Methot saving 1.4 million dollars.

[Legion34]

In actual practice, how does that work?

well. Many different ways. The NHL decides each year that the teams split x amount among 31 teams. They chose to do it equally. There is no reason that they have to choose to do it equally anymore than you would have to chose to split 310’ among 31 people.

you could give each person 10 each. You could give 1 dollar to 30 people and 280 to one. And anything in between.

just like a team splits 81.5. Million dollars among 23 players. They don’t split that equally.

They could do say it was an 80 cap

10 teams that pay into the revenue sharing can get an 85 million cap. The 11 teams that are neutral
Have an 80. The 10 teams that get the money have a 75 cap.

or a million different systems.

 

[Legion34]

I’m not getting your “tax free” argument here, nor “money now vs money” later.

- Any investment earnings are going to be taxed going forward. Whether those investments come from your Option A or B.

- The Player is being paid “Now” when the money goes into the RCA, fully available to invest and compound.


If you have the time to research, I would love to see a example of a single Player Agent or GM who says RCA’s can’t significantly reduce a Players effective tax rate. I honestly doubt any of them ever said “players agents GMs accountants say tax free is better.”

1.) RCA aren’t at all what you think they are in practice. It is just a souped up version of an RRSP. The Canadian government says “give us your money now to invest. We give you tiny returns for 30’years.... but then when you retire in 30’years. We tax you less because you don’t have a job”. So instead of taxing you like a lawyer. We tax you like a cashier. So you pay less

But if you take it out in Canada. That counts as your income. So if you took out a million dollars. You still would still get taxed like Normal. Basically you have to move. Or trickle your money like 150k per year. Or you get taxed the same.

2.) I have this program myself because of a pension payout. I have made little to no money. 2 years ago I lost money. The idea that a millionaire would put their money in the same government program that blue collar workers do is nuts. It’s like driving a civic or eating at appelbees. I would believe that they have. They have much better investment options than the general Canadian government provides

They don’t shop where I shop. Drive what I drive or eat what I eat. But we are both investing in the same level with the same guy? Probably not.

3.) it doesn’t matter what I think or you think. It matters what they think. NHL players agents GMs and coaches have all came out and said that tax rates effect salaries and decisions. We have tons of evidence for that.

we have NO evidence that players are signing in Canada for RCA tax advantages. I wonder why that is?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Every (most) locations have certain factors to them that they are going to play up and sell in free agency negotiations. Taxes are just one of those. Should we also adjust for COLA? But then we should account for the fact that rich players generally WANT to be in bigger markets where they have better endorsement opportunities. Burke complaining about Taxes for why he failed in Toronto is just a classic example of someone making excuses for his own shortcomings.

 

[glovesave_35]

well. Many different ways. The NHL decides each year that the teams split x amount among 31 teams. They chose to do it equally. There is no reason that they have to choose to do it equally anymore than you would have to chose to split 310’ among 31 people.

you could give each person 10 each. You could give 1 dollar to 30 people and 280 to one. And anything in between.

just like a team splits 81.5. Million dollars among 23 players. They don’t split that equally.

They could do say it was an 80 cap

10 teams that pay into the revenue sharing can get an 85 million cap. The 11 teams that are neutral
Have an 80. The 10 teams that get the money have a 75 cap.

or a million different systems.

Why would one billionaire think he should pay more than another billionaire?

And in your method here, wouldn't it be most prudent for the breakdown of that split to be along franchise valuation? The Maple Leafs absolutely rake it in every year, regardless of team success, just like the Dallas Cowboys. So, in this world where a salary cap isn't the same for every team, why not make it so the teams who make the most are able to pay the most?

The reason is that the Leafs can get away with letting the poorer teams in non-traditional markets keep their (the Leafs) salary lower than it would be without the salary cap. And they can throw their hands up and say, "we would pay more if they just let us!" That is exactly what cost certainty means for the owners. That is why the salary cap is the same for every team. And that is just the way they want it, despite fans of teams outside of tax-friendly locales complaining about it every year.

*The Leafs are used as a general example here. It holds true for many Canadian and other northern teams.

 

[Legion34]

Why would one billionaire think he should pay more than another billionaire?

And in your method here, wouldn't it be most prudent for the breakdown of that split to be along franchise valuation? The Maple Leafs absolutely rake it in every year, regardless of team success, just like the Dallas Cowboys. So, in this world where a salary cap isn't the same for every team, why not make it so the teams who make the most are able to pay the most?

The reason is that the Leafs can get away with letting the poorer teams in non-traditional markets keep their (the Leafs) salary lower than it would be without the salary cap. And they can throw their hands up and say, "we would pay more if they just let us!" That is exactly what cost certainty means for the owners. That is why the salary cap is the same for every team. And that is just the way they want it, despite fans of teams outside of tax-friendly locales complaining about it every year.

*The Leafs are used as a general example here. It holds true for many Canadian and other northern teams.

1.) they did choose to do that? Prior to the salary cap teams were choosing to pay. They wanted to. Other teams couldn’t keep up. You think the cap was about rich teams not wanting to pay?

They could have chose not to pay. They did. Every negotiation you can decide to walk away.

Multiple teams are paying real dollars over the cap right now. They choose to do so. If you think the cap is about rich teams not wanting to pay more for players than small teams...... I think you missed the 90s

 

[DistantThunderRep]

1.) they did choose to do that? Prior to the salary cap teams were choosing to pay. They wanted to. Other teams couldn’t keep up. You think the cap was about rich teams not wanting to pay?

They could have chose not to pay. They did. Every negotiation you can decide to walk away.

Multiple teams are paying real dollars over the cap right now. They choose to do so. If you think the cap is about rich teams not wanting to pay more for players than small teams...... I think you missed the 90s

I think you misunderstood the 90's. Owners wanted the cap because of the 90's and how out of hand it got.

 

[Captain97]

The whole tax system needs an overhaul. The wrong people are not paying taxes, while the rest of us are covering it for the wealthy ones.

Can we please not get into this idea. You aren't going to like the math when I explain net tax values. Corporations avoid taxes well but individuals who are rich pay a lot.

 

[Legion34]

I think you misunderstood the 90's. Owners wanted the cap because of the 90's and how out of hand it got.

yes. The poor teams did. The rich teams were able to afford what they could not. The rich teams were not asking for the cap. That’s the point. The rich teams do not want equal cap so “they don’t have to pay more than others”.

If all teams choose not to pay a salary. It doesn’t happen. Some teams pay and some don’t.

 

[smokes lets go]

Little more, yes. Because his salary was all in Tampa. Would have still been no state tax in Nashville, Florida, and Dallas but would have to pay in Carolina, Chicago, Detroit, and Columbus.

Little more, yes. Because his salary was all in Tampa. Would have still been no state tax in Nashville, Florida, and Dallas but would have to pay in Carolina, Chicago, Detroit, and Columbus.

If anything players on the tax teams playing in this division made more money is some cases.

If anything players on the tax teams playing in this division made more money is some cases.

What happens to guy who are 'retired'. Guys like Seabtook, and previosly nathan horton? Would they be required to pay taxes on whichever team thats paying them, even though i dont think horton was ever in toronto after failing his physical each training camp. Wouldnt those guys be smart to move to a no income tax state for the duration of their contract?

 

[beowulf]

He says over 2 years in Dallas he saved 1.4
Million.

Everyone knows this. It has been referenced by multiple players GMs agents and accountants.

Fans here pretend it’s not true..... but it is. Wait for someone to say he’s wrong

While it is true, you also have to look at the cost of living in the various cities. Players in Canada being paid in US$ but living expenses being in CDN$. etc. There is a lot more than income taxes that lead to the final amount a player lives on.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

What happens to guy who are 'retired'. Guys like Seabtook, and previosly nathan horton? Would they be required to pay taxes on whichever team thats paying them, even though i dont think horton was ever in toronto after failing his physical each training camp. Wouldnt those guys be smart to move to a no income tax state for the duration of their contract?

Depends on where they are living.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

yes. The poor teams did. The rich teams were able to afford what they could not. The rich teams were not asking for the cap. That’s the point. The rich teams do not want equal cap so “they don’t have to pay more than others”.

If all teams choose not to pay a salary. It doesn’t happen. Some teams pay and some don’t.

So 5 teams out of 30 at the time didn't want the cap... that's what you are arguing, that Montreal, Toronto, the Rangers, Boston, and Detroit are upset. At that time, Chicago was a gong show. Cool...

 

[mouser]

1.) RCA aren’t at all what you think they are in practice. It is just a souped up version of an RRSP. The Canadian government says “give us your money now to invest. We give you tiny returns for 30’years.... but then when you retire in 30’years. We tax you less because you don’t have a job”. So instead of taxing you like a lawyer. We tax you like a cashier. So you pay less

But if you take it out in Canada. That counts as your income. So if you took out a million dollars. You still would still get taxed like Normal. Basically you have to move. Or trickle your money like 150k per year. Or you get taxed the same.

2.) I have this program myself because of a pension payout. I have made little to no money. 2 years ago I lost money. The idea that a millionaire would put their money in the same government program that blue collar workers do is nuts. It’s like driving a civic or eating at appelbees. I would believe that they have. They have much better investment options than the general Canadian government provides

They don’t shop where I shop. Drive what I drive or eat what I eat. But we are both investing in the same level with the same guy? Probably not.

There is a lot of flexibility in what RCA's can invest in. The RCA's associated with pension plans tend to be on the restricted side, similar to U.S. 401k's.

Wealth management companies can and do create single person RCA's for high income investors, like athletes, with substantially more investment flexibility then typical employer group RCA plans offer.

 

[WarriorofTime]

While it is true, you also have to look at the cost of living in the various cities. Players in Canada being paid in US$ but living expenses being in CDN$. etc. There is a lot more than income taxes that lead to the final amount a player lives on.

Exactly, trying to tie the salary cap to some "real purchasing power" is just insanely stupid and doesn't make sense when every player's circumstances are different. Burke is just being a blustering blowhard like always when he says stuff like "in Toronto we had to offer everyone $1 million more..." in the hopes that people forget the terrible moves he made as a GM and start thinking it was because of taxes or something.

 

[Brownies]

I don't understand Methot's tweet. He saved 1.4M compared to what ? Ottawa ? I'm not saying he's wrong, I just don't understand 1.4M compared to what.

 

[glovesave_35]

While it is true, you also have to look at the cost of living in the various cities. Players in Canada being paid in US$ but living expenses being in CDN$. etc. There is a lot more than income taxes that lead to the final amount a player lives on.

This is the obvious reply to all of these tax-haven threads.

The people like OP always retort with something like, "Let's not get crazy...those things vary too much by location. Taxes are hard numbers that would be easy to adjust for." Without even asking why one of these things is more impactful than another on the real lives of players and families.

 

[Legion34]

I don't understand Methot's tweet. He saved 1.4M compared to what ? Ottawa ? I'm not saying he's wrong, I just don't understand 1.4M compared to what.

he was traded from ottawa to Dallas. He had the same contract. When he played in Dallas he got to take home 700 k more on the exact contract every year.

because the tax rate provides an unfair advantage which leads to people taking less.

of course people here think they know more than the actual people who play and cash the cheques. It’s nuts.

 

[Legion34]

Exactly, trying to tie the salary cap to some "real purchasing power" is just insanely stupid and doesn't make sense when every player's circumstances are different. Burke is just being a blustering blowhard like always when he says stuff like "in Toronto we had to offer everyone $1 million more..." in the hopes that people forget the terrible moves he made as a GM and start thinking it was because of taxes or something.

annnnd radulov. Seguin. Mcdavid. Johnston. Lewis gross agency. Petrys agent. NHL accountants. David poile are lying to......

make Burke look good?

 

[Legion34]

There is a lot of flexibility in what RCA's can invest in. The RCA's associated with pension plans tend to be on the restricted side, similar to U.S. 401k's.

Wealth management companies can and do create single person RCA's for high income investors, like athletes, with substantially more investment flexibility then typical employer group RCA plans offer.

And there is a lot MORE flexibility in 10 million cash in hand instead of locking it in an RCA for 15 years.

people who aren’t in the NHL who don’t live in Canada or pay taxes in Canada who have a hypothetical understanding of an RCA and how a person would want to spend their money do not have more knowledge than the agents players GMs and accountants who are actually signing and cashing the cheques.

again. If it is this simple. Why have literally 0 players ever come out and talked about RCA breaks and the massive advantages of doing them.

Because multiplayers are lying? Why do people on the internet know more about Marc methot money than him? Why are Allan walshes top clients all in Vegas. Why isn’t he taking advantage of this loophole?

Walsh has 10 clients making over a million. 6 of them
Are in cheater markets. Why would that be. He literally has 1 client in a Canadian market over a million. (Drouin) who got overpaid.

couldn’t the RCA ridiculousness be a way for him to attract more clients?

 

[WarriorofTime]

annnnd radulov. Seguin. Mcdavid. Johnston. Lewis gross agency. Petrys agent. NHL accountants. David poile are lying to......

make Burke look good?

I'm not saying there aren't players who pay less taxes than others but Burke is clearly using it as an excuse

 

[mouser]

And there is a lot MORE flexibility in 10 million cash in hand instead of locking it in an RCA for 15 years.

people who aren’t in the NHL who don’t live in Canada or pay taxes in Canada who have a hypothetical understanding of an RCA and how a person would want to spend their money do not have more knowledge than the agents players GMs and accountants who are actually signing and cashing the cheques.

again. If it is this simple. Why have literally 0 players ever come out and talked about RCA breaks and the massive advantages of doing them.

Because multiplayers are lying? Why do people on the internet know more about Marc methot money than him? Why are Allan walshes top clients all in Vegas. Why isn’t he taking advantage of this loophole?

Walsh has 10 clients making over a million. 6 of them
Are in cheater markets. Why would that be. He literally has 1 client in a Canadian market over a million. (Drouin) who got overpaid.

couldn’t the RCA ridiculousness be a way for him to attract more clients?

Sure but that's a false comparison. Again, using your own example the comparison should be between:
A) $5.0m in hand ($5.0m total), vs
B) $2.35m in hand and $5.3m in a tax deferred RCA ($7.65m total)

 

[rt]

@Jamieh

 

[GOilers88]

The whole SYSTEM needs an overhaul, not just taxes.

The one good thing that came out of the pandemic was all of us finally realizing how corrupt America is and the entire system is designed to line the pockets of the rich and eliminate the middle class.

I mean in some backwards ass way the rich made more money in 2020 than they ever had while the rest of us suffered. I don't get how that happened.

Kinda f***ed how it took a pandemic for people to realize this. It's not like they try to hide it.

 

[Legion34]

Sure but that's a false comparison. Again, using your own example the comparison should be between:
A) $5.0m in hand ($5.0m total), vs
B) $2.35m in hand and $5.3m in a tax deferred RCA ($7.65m total)

But that gets taxed to. The Best case scenario. Which would involve getting to florida for a year or something would get you back to even. There is no scenario where even best case you end up with more money.

it’s 5 million now. Vs. 2.35 million now.

then you have the extra money which will be in an RCA which will get taxed again. The government. Doesn’t just let you avoid taxes for free. They are getting their money one way or another.

like I said. The only real person who makes this claim is Allan Walsh. He said it once. And 6/10 clients are in no state tax markets. All of his highest clients are in those markets. 1 is in Canada.

If this really were accurate and he could do these things then his clients would be in Canada

 

[Brownies]

he was traded from ottawa to Dallas. He had the same contract. When he played in Dallas he got to take home 700 k more on the exact contract every year.

because the tax rate provides an unfair advantage which leads to people taking less.

of course people here think they know more than the actual people who play and cash the cheques. It’s nuts.

Oh, makes sense thank you. It’s the same contract, making it easy to compare.