Marc Bergevin - More Excuses Needed... Edition Pt 2

[417]

Nah I got the point just fine.
I guess it depends on one's interpretation of the term dump, as one's definition could be entirely different than someone else's.

Well that person didn't elaborate on what "dump" means...so what can I really safely assume here?

He didn't say trade Drouin for an upgrade on D...he didn't say trade Drouin for a package of prospects or picks.

He just said "dump" him. Usually, that's a reference to getting rid of a player and his salary and you typically don't expect a high yield on those types of deals.

So that's what I was going off of.

I can't make his arguments for him, I just responded to what he posted.

Regardless, I was pointing out how saying Drouin was a productive member of the top 6 simply because of his raw point total is flawed.

I suppose that depends on how you interpreted that to mean. I mean, he got 53pts this past season, a season in which up until February, it was looking like he'd finish with 60-65pts, which is 5-10pts off of what the latest flavor of the month, Matt Duchene has.

The way I see it, with Duchene coming in, KK taking some steps plus oncoming talent like Suzuki, Julien will eventually give those players a share of the cushy minutes Drouin is getting now without any competition to fight for it, as long as he keeps being listless for large portions of the season. With him already 8th in ESP/60 among forwards this year despite heavy offensive deployment and long stretches with Domi, if he's pushed down just by a little and some of his offensive deployments plus PP minutes given to more deserving or better suited players, that raw point total (that may seem decent on the surface) will fall off a cliff.

Be that as it may...I really fail to see how 'dumping' Drouin benefits the Habs in any way.

Especially because it's not like they need to do it to fit in Duchene's salary, Drouin's salary isn't crippling the Habs salary cap.

So what is the purpose of dumping him, other then the fact that he's viewed as the crown jewel of this GM's acquisition and by proxy, suffers from it from a fan/media perspective?

 

[Belial]

Radulov and Markov declining Bergevin's offers could end up being the best thing that happened with this franchise in a long while.

 

[417]

I literally just gave a bunch of points on how Duchene is better and they were all correct. Duchene is a much better player than Drouin, no questions asked.

I'm not arguing whether or not Duchene is better then Drouin...I've conceded several times that I have no problem saying Duchene > Drouin (I just disagree with the amount of difference you think is between both, but I digress).

So i'm not sure why you keep repeating this, over and over again.

No offense, but you have to be blind not to see the difference between these two. Give me Duchene over Drouin every single time. My argument is about Duhene vs Drouin. And replacing Drouin with Duchene is definitely more than a lateral move.

You can also give me Duchene over Drouin...

But when i'm looking at this TEAM...i'd rather have Duchene AND Drouin.

vs

Duchene and nothing (or whatever represents dumping Drouin).

 

[DarkSender]

Duchene will cost 3M$ more than Drouin. In terms of production, both make the same...

 

[G0bias]

Well that person didn't elaborate on what "dump" means...so what can I really safely assume here?

He didn't say trade Drouin for an upgrade on D...he didn't say trade Drouin for a package of prospects or picks.

He just said "dump" him. Usually, that's a reference to getting rid of a player and his salary and you typically don't expect a high yield on those types of deals.

So that's what I was going off of.

I can't make his arguments for him, I just responded to what he posted.


I suppose that depends on how you interpreted that to mean. I mean, he got 53pts this past season, a season in which up until February, it was looking like he'd finish with 60-65pts, which is 5-10pts off of what the latest flavor of the month, Matt Duchene has.



Be that as it may...I really fail to see how 'dumping' Drouin benefits the Habs in any way.

Especially because it's not like they need to do it to fit in Duchene's salary, Drouin's salary isn't crippling the Habs salary cap.

So what is the purpose of dumping him, other then the fact that he's viewed as the crown jewel of this GM's acquisition and by proxy, suffers from it from a fan/media perspective?

I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt he didn't imply a low round pick in return when he suggested dumping him.

That being said, sure I'd like to get another surprise Domi-like return but I wouldn't expect a high yield for a player who was the biggest net negative during a very long and most crucial stretch of our season. Not to mention gets out-produced at even strength by nearly the entire top 9 since he's been here. Turn the tables, what kind of value would you give in return of such a "productive" player with a history of questionable character to boot.

 

[G0bias]

The problem with having both Duchene and Drouin when you're building a cup winner is they're made of very similar cloth. They're moody and at times unpredictable players, who can go MIA for stretches when things don't go their way (and sometimes for no reason at all as we've seen). One is manageable if well surrounded but two in your top 6 is just asking for trouble. Specially when they'd combine for north of 14M. I'm not a huge fan of signing Duchene to the kind of monies he'll get but given the choice between the two, it's Duchene.

 

[Belial]

Come on... we're not getting Duchene or whoever... C'est Montreal Tabarnak!

 

[Wats]

We disagree on "much" better.


So you think this top 9

Domi-Duchene-Shaw
Tatar-Danault-Gallagher
Lehkonen-Kotkaniemi-Armia

is better then

Domi-Duchene-Shaw
Tatar-Danault-Gallagher
Drouin-Kotkaniemi-Lehkonen

That's what you're trying to tell me?

You think the first group is an upgrade on the 2nd group?

Why is Lehkonen over Byron in the first group? However, I'm on boat where you keep Drouin and get Duchene. This team's offense can only compete if it's both deep and has high level skill to make up for lack of superstars.

bottom 6 of:
Drouin-Kotkaniemi- Armia
Byron - Weal/Thompson - Lehkonen
should outscore opposition bottom 6 almost every night.

top 6 of:
Domi - Duchene - Shaw (two potential 70pt players on same line)
Tatar - Danault - Gallagher

on paper should be able to handle themselves 5 on 5 vs opposition top lines.

 

[417]

I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt he didn't imply a low round pick in return when he suggested dumping him.

Well what else does "dumping" him mean then?

It doesn't insinuate he thinks Drouin has much value to the Habs or any other team.

That being said, sure I'd like to get another surprise Domi-like return but I wouldn't expect a high yield for a player who was the biggest net negative during a very long and most crucial stretch of our season. Not to mention gets out-produced at even strength by nearly the entire top 9 since he's been here.

Exactly...hence the reason why I think "dumping" him makes no sense.

If you're not improving the team, how is it then you're upgrading the team by dumping him?

Turn the tables, what kind of value would you give in return of such a "productive" player with a history of questionable character to boot.

I'm not sure why you're asking ME this, I'm not the one who suggested dumping him.

Furthermore, his low value (or perceived low value rather) would make it incredibly pointless to move him at this point.

You upgrade this teams group of forwards by adding Duchene to what they already have.

If you're dumping Drouin and signing Duchene.

Then I have a difficult time understanding how the team has gotten better in a significant way, at least beyond the slight perceived upgrade of Duchene over Drouin.

 

[417]

Why is Lehkonen over Byron in the first group? However, I'm on boat where you keep Drouin and get Duchene. This team's offense can only compete if it's both deep and has high level skill to make up for late of superstars.

Forgot Byron...doesn't change what I said though.

Drouin's far from a perfect player...but taking him out of the equation without getting a player of equal ability/talent either up front or on defense and just signing Duchene to essentially replace him..

Doesn't exactly move the needle for this team IMO.

 

[Wats]

Forgot Byron...doesn't change what I said though.

Drouin's far from a perfect player...but taking him out of the equation without getting a player of equal ability/talent either up front or on defense and just signing Duchene to essentially replace him..

Doesn't exactly move the needle for this team IMO.

Agree. Habs missed the boat with having both Radulov/Drouin. Getting Duchene would pretty much make that a distant memory.

 

[G0bias]

Well what else does "dumping" him mean then?

It doesn't insinuate he thinks Drouin has much value to the Habs or any other team.



Exactly...hence the reason why I think "dumping" him makes no sense.

If you're not improving the team, how is it then you're upgrading the team by dumping him?


I'm not sure why you're asking ME this, I'm not the one who suggested dumping him.

Furthermore, his low value (or perceived low value rather) would make it incredibly pointless to move him at this point.

You upgrade this teams group of forwards by adding Duchene to what they already have.

If you're dumping Drouin and signing Duchene.

Then I have a difficult time understanding how the team has gotten better in a significant way, at least beyond the slight perceived upgrade of Duchene over Drouin.

Drouin doesn't function in less than cushy environments. And when he's not putting points on the board, his contributions everywhere else on the ice are so low he's a liability. Better to trade him now when his value is, with some luck, still in excess of his utility, as like I said, the shine of 3rd overall selection and junior pedigree hasn't worn off completely for some GM out there. Than later when he'll be toiling away between 2nd and 3rd lines as a secondary depth scorer while we watch his already limited production and value go down the drain.

The improvements will come from giving those opportunities to players who will make better use of it, on top of the return we'd get.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Radulov and Markov declining Bergevin's offers could end up being the best thing that happened with this franchise in a long while.

Yup, Habs are M'UCH better off with the 5 years of Alzner than one or two, or even three season of Markov at pretty muh the same salary...

 

[417]

Drouin doesn't function in less than cushy environments. And when he's not putting points on the board, his contributions everywhere else on the ice are so low he's a liability. Better to trade him now when his value is, with some luck, still in excess of his utility, as like I said, the shine of 3rd overall selection and junior pedigree hasn't worn off completely for some GM out there. Than later when he'll be toiling away between 2nd and 3rd lines as a secondary depth scorer while we watch his already limited production and value go down the drain.

I don't disagree with any of this - but it's really besides the point.

Giving away this player (i.e. dumping him), doesn't make this team better...

The improvements will come from giving those opportunities to players who will make better use of it, on top of the return we'd get.

What kind of return do you expect from a player you're trying to "dump"?

An even better improvement would be for Drouin to improve (which IS possible) and signing Duchene.

I'm not going to let a bad 20 game stretch by Drouin blind me from the fact that he was having a pretty good season up until that point (yes, i understand aided by Domi, but good players tend to perform better when they're surrounded by good players)

 

[Belial]

Yup, Habs are M'UCH better off with the 5 years of Alzner than one or two, or even three season of Markov at pretty muh the same salary...

You're the master of missing the point on this board my friend! I'm officially crowning you.

 

[ECWHSWI]

You're the master of missing the point on this board my friend! I'm officially crowning you.

its always about defending Bergevin no matter what, so the only point there was pretending the Pejorative Slured moves this beloved GM of yours did were in fact amazing.


you can drop thejab, they're too weak to be considered punches anyway.

 

[G0bias]

I don't disagree with any of this - but it's really besides the point.

Giving away this player (i.e. dumping him), doesn't make this team better...

...unless he's hurting you on more nights than not, which he is. So it is relevant.

Dumping could mean the equivalent of what they were aiming for with Galchenyuk. It could be more or less, I have no idea. I mean we are talking of someone who's contribution is in line with 3rd liners, so what would be considered dumping in that case?

What kind of return do you expect from a player you're trying to "dump"?

An even better improvement would be for Drouin to improve (which IS possible) and signing Duchene.

I'm not going to let a bad 20 game stretch by Drouin blind me from the fact that he was having a pretty good season up until that point (yes, i understand aided by Domi, but good players tend to perform better when they're surrounded by good players)

Lol. Or you can face the fact there's more than enough data with years worth of Drouin's disappearing acts and behaviour. On top of his time in Tampa.
You don't need another X number of games to see more of the same.

The time to move him is asap. But let's watch him disappear some more for a third season.

 

[Belial]

its always about defending Bergevin no matter what, so the only point there was pretending the ******ed moves this beloved GM of yours did were in fact amazing.


you can drop thejab, they're too weak to be considered punches anyway.

Bergevin can get lost at this point if it will make you feel better, he managed to actually build some kind of prospect pipe and assemble a pretty decent team that's young.

 

[417]

...unless he's hurting you on more nights than not, which he is. So it is relevant.

Not sure about that - but agree to disagree.

Dumping could mean the equivalent of what they were aiming for with Galchenyuk. It could be more or less, I have no idea. I mean we are talking of someone who's contribution is in line with 3rd liners, so what would be considered dumping in that case?

Really, only the person who said it can explain what he meant by dumping him.

Lol. Or you can face the fact there's more than enough data with years worth of Drouin's disappearing acts and behaviour. On top of his time in Tampa.
You don't need another X number of games to see more of the same.

The time to move him is now. But let's watch him disappear some more for a third season.

I thin it's absolutely the worse time to trade him - if you're absolutely deadset on trading him.

Then you try to "polish the apple" and you do that by making moves that improves the depth and quality of the top 9, which you hope will make him look better, thus increasing his value.

I mean, look at how much your destroying him in this thread...what do you actually expect to receive back for him, which could make the team better?

You can't shred the guy, advocate trading him...while simultaneously expecting a return that makes the team better.

 

[Guns n Roses]

It's been real

Duchene is in a different galaxy. Everyone knows just what type of little bitch Drouin is. The whole NHL knows.

 

[417]

Duchene is in a different galaxy. Everyone knows just what type of little ***** Drouin is. The whole NHL knows.

Yes...because Matt Duchene's got a spotless reputation lol

Once more, i'm not even arguing that Drouin is better then Duchene...what i'm saying is this team would be better with both, not necessarily by "dumping" Drouin and signing Duchene.

Whatever upgrade you think Duchene is on Drouin, on its own, I don't think would manifest itself on the ice in terms of making this team a contender.

Now if you're talking about moving Drouin for a player that can replace him up front or on defense...sure.

 

[ahmedou]

I defend Bergevin a lot cause he's in my mind clearly not an idiot. I just think he's super bad at speaking out to the media. He seems to learn from his past mistakes and that would be the only reason I would keep him as a GM.

From what I remember out of the blue..

The bad thing he did and that I hope he knows/understands and not repeat again:

1. The way Radulov/Markov contracts was handled: You can't say, 3-4 days prior to his signature with Dallas that if you want loyalty buy a dog and then leave Markov hanging without any calls. That was cheap, and smelling hypocrisy so hard.
2. Shaw for 2 second round picks and a 3.9M$ contract for 5 years. An offer sheet with the same contract would have costed a lot less.
3. Asking Subban and Price to stop their triple low five... WHY ??? Just leave the guys having fun in the game.
4. Creating a Subban vs Pacioretty captaincy race. And naming Pacioretty after that.
5. (BIGGEST MISTAKE) Not signing Eric Staal - when he left the Hurricanes. He could have been our top #1 center, followed by Plecky and Eller/Desharnais. I remember at that time telling my friends that Staal would be perfect fit in Montreal (2016 Edition).
6. Subban vs Weber: We should have done everything to help grow Subban in a good offensive defenceman. The way this guy was managed by Therrien and the coaching staff was bad. Like.. really bad.

What he did well:

1. Vanek, Danault, Pacioretty, Galchenyuk trade. (Best would have been to keep those two former Habs.. but management was so bad that Pacioretty became cancer and Chucky lost his way.)
2. Pacioretty, Desharnais , Markov and Cole contracts/trades - followed with Ryder trade. Remember Markov just recovered from a huge injury and was 32 and signed 5M for 3 years.
3. Moen vs Gonchar - great leader for Beaulieu. Unfortunately did not worked well at the end for the latter.
4. (BEST SIGNATURE) Bringing Stephane Waite. Huge results as Price transformed completely after his venue.
5. Subban vs Weber: At least we got a huge leader and the best captain possible for Montreal in Weber for Subban. The bad part of the trade was the result that Subban needed to leave. The good part is that we received a beast in Weber. 2M$ less in cap space + leadership in and off the ice. See how Subban is in trade rumors at Nashville even now.. and when asked about it, he's not even saying that he wants to stay.

At the end. None of what he did well is good drafting and picks. And that is the reason why Bergevin had to say "reset" last season. When you reset something, you're actually beginning from ZERO. That means that Bergevin is saying that the last 5-6 years is a failing. And I would say the same. He failed. He learnt. Lets give him another 2 years (end of contract) and see where the team is at.

If they don't make the playoffs next year, I won't be surprised. We still don't have a team for that compared to others in the east.

He did a Habs genocide... All the good verbs on the dictionnary he's bad on it. When you fail, you quit. That's clear. Here in Montreal, the excellence isn't what we willing to be at. Our standards been not risen up. Been falling down. Debutants ones. Strings ones. Incompetent ones. Recedivist ones. Fraudulent ones. Ones and ones. Bergevin is among all these groups...

 

[G0bias]

Not sure about that - but agree to disagree.


Really, only the person who said it can explain what he meant by dumping him.


I thin it's absolutely the worse time to trade him - if you're absolutely deadset on trading him.

Then you try to "polish the apple" and you do that by making moves that improves the depth and quality of the top 9, which you hope will make him look better, thus increasing his value.

Yeah that's all good but it'd require a reality in which the person in charge hasn't shown a tendency to do exactly the opposite of this, aside from the Weise/Fleischman deal.

I mean, look at how much your destroying him in this thread...what do you actually expect to receive back for him, which could make the team better?

You can't shred the guy, advocate trading him...while simultaneously expecting a return that makes the team better.

If the value in his exit is felt not just in the physical return, while at the same time you don't expect his value to go up, why not?

 

[417]

Yeah that's all good but it'd require a reality in which the person in charge hasn't shown a tendency to do exactly the opposite of this, aside from the Weise/Fleischman deal.

This is all pointless because I don't think the Habs are ready to move on from Drouin, never mind "dump" him.

If the value in his exit is felt not just in the physical return, while at the same time you don't expect his value to go up, why not?

How do you know how it will be felt?

 

[ahmedou]

Bergevin can get lost at this point if it will make you feel better, he managed to actually build some kind of prospect pipe and assemble a pretty decent team that's young.

With all the mess deep inside... That's an accomplishment? No one can't do that?