The Star: Maple Leafs should trade Phil Kessel

thewave

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Jun 17, 2011
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I'd pity the fanbase whose GM gives players contracts based on numbers he found for free on the internet made by nobody's.

Can't argue with that. The other factors more concealed finding a group that likes each other stick up for one another. That alone is hard. We could get Weiss (just an example not saying about him) and he is an idiot nobody likes, that will show negatively in performance for the team. Look what drama ie. Lu did to Van.

Look what teams of stars do as well so often. Rangers tried super teams in the past now Pits, it almost never works, Boston battles and sticks up for each other lead by Chara and Lucic. It works, always, the real chemistry.
 
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Bomber0104

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Can't argue with that. The other factors more concealed finding a group that likes each other stick up for one another. That alone is hard. We could get Weiss (just an example not saying about him) and he is an idiot nobody likes, that will show negatively in performance for the team. Look what drama ie. Lu did to Van.

If the Leafs are committed to pushing forward to contendership, they are going to have to accept two things:

1) Re-inforcements probably won't come through our in house prospects for a while, with Morgan Rielly representing the only clearcut sure-thing prospect.

2) The most straight-forward way to improve is to get more production per cap dollar...which should involve removing deadweight from our salary cap and recapitalizing it into better players. I believe Darcy Tucker's buyout caphit is coming off the books soon. That is one example of money that can be better spent.

The Leafs are going to be relying heavily on free agents, prospects exceeding expectations, and/or selling future assets for immediate help to improve in the coming years, IMO
 

smitty10

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Aug 6, 2009
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No chance we trade Kessel. What a stupid suggestion. Pretty much 'we should trade Kessel because we can get a lot for him'. Pittsburgh should trade Crosby, Washington should trade Ovechkin, Tampa should trade Stamkos; all because they can get a lot for him.
 

The Caveman

We are all the goat
Jan 14, 2007
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What it comes down to is poor drafting. Boston doesn't have a single center, aside from non-factor Seguin- that was drafted in the first round! Oh. And they just beat a team that had perhaps the top trio of high draft pick centers in the league.

You sign and keep legitimate superstars, which kessel is becoming. You draft smart and develop.
 

thewave

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Jun 17, 2011
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If the Leafs are committed to pushing forward to contendership, they are going to have to accept two things:

1) Re-inforcements probably won't come through our in house prospects for a while, with Morgan Rielly representing the only clearcut sure-thing prospect.

2) The most straight-forward way to improve is to get more production per cap dollar...which should involve removing deadweight from our salary cap and recapitalizing it into better players. I believe Darcy Tucker's buyout caphit is coming off the books soon. That is one example of money that can be better spent.

The Leafs are going to be relying heavily on free agents, prospects exceeding expectations, and/or selling future assets for immediate help to improve in the coming years, IMO

I would let go Bozak, hope Grabo increases his worth and maybe trade him TDL then get that 2d or see if Ranger wants or is able. Play Colborne, move Scrivs for vet backup, buyout Komi, sign Mac to 3.5 if he will and probably trade him down the line.

More in favour of retaining Mac simply because he will be 3.5m and is good when going, Bozak would be fine at the same money but both would be trade able down the line.

The core is obvious. Not opposed to upgrades at FA but they can't price themselves out of it. More Connolly is the last thing we need
 

The_Chosen_One

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Jul 4, 2006
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:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Phil Kessel deserves $7-8 million like Corey Perry because he starts some shifts in the defensive zone and has to skate up the ice.
Zeke was correct, you are usually incorrect. As I said, Corey Perry is MORE sheltered than Phil Kessel, around higher quality players, and yet his production is NOT better than Kessel in the last two seasons.

I've heard a lot of doozies from "advanced" stats folk, but this is a new low. What's irritating is people taking inherently flawed stats, dressing them up, rearranging them, and then passing it off as a literal truth.
I've seen people who probably struggle to keep up with the game. Face the facts, Perry regularly floats and makes bonehead plays. He isn't a defensively strong player despite his size.

During the regular season, he was more sheltered than Kessel and only produced 2 points in the playoffs. Statistics and watching the game tells us that Anaheim lost the line matching game, because both Datsyuk and Zetterberg can take top competition and produce. On the other hand, Perry faltered against stronger competition, while Kessel, in the regular season, has demonstrates productivity against stronger competition.

Don't you remember the regular season games? We were sheltering Kadri and thus Kessel was expected to take tougher minutes. The Grabovski line was assigned the toughest minutes, but weren't able to produce. Thus, Kessel's line had to make up for that and we secured a comfortable playoff position.

I'm not sure what people don't understand but there is not a single model that can ever recreate a hockey game, tell me who performed well, who didn't, and how we should value these performances over the long run. I'm sorry, but hockey is meant to be watched. Spreadsheeting won't help you.
Yes, I have seen a number of Duck games live in Anaheim. He is not up against top lines like Jeff Carter/ Mike Richards were in the playoffs. More so, statistics can tell us who Perry was up against by comparing his competitions relative CORSI. In other words, we can determine who are the puck possession monsters and see how Perry is utilized in line matching.

Face the facts, Perry has to be sheltered to perform. Kessel, on the other hand, can produce against depth scoring teams like the Bruins. He can do it without a top line centre in Getzlaf either, who is also earning $8 million.
 
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The_Chosen_One

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I'd pity the fanbase whose GM gives players contracts based on numbers he found for free on the internet made by nobody's.
Kessel will be re-signed regardless of what the "I watch the game" crowd say. I'd take Kessel's 4 goals, 6 points against Boston's shut down unit over the +$8 million Corey Perry's 2 points.

I pity those who equate skill with gritty play or stature.

That said, he'll get his $7-8 million per, and there is very little indication that our GM is not going to do that. That $7.5 million per cap was awarded to Gaborik during a lower cap season, who doesn't perform as well during playoffs.
 

sangreale

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Feb 21, 2008
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I have no problem trading anyone. It is just that no one will give the Leafs what they should askt in return. Leafs aren't giving up their number one scorer. Not to mention the component of speed. They were able to give the Bruins problems because of their speed. Add to the team speed. That will get you further ahead and it's doable instead of dreaming about some impossible home run you think you can hit by trading your best goal scorer.
 

Rants Mulliniks

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Jun 22, 2008
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I'm not saying he should. In fact history says he won't. At the time Burke made him the highest paid 21 yr old in the history of the NHL. I doubt he's going back.

In all fairness he has an amazing wrist shot and has been a better playmaker than expected, on the flip side of his celebrity that is Toronto, he's never scored 40 goals and his prime is now. He's not a fitness freak and there is plenty of evidence that he is a talent vs a Talented hard worker. I think he could be so much better yet he's riding his talent. Soon he's going to have to work hard and Phil has next to no work ethic. Major red flag on a long term high meal ticket.

I were a GM I would not invest heavily in an asset like that because I know it's not likely it's a great long term investment. Seen it a zillion times.

Where the hell do you guys come up with this stuff? If club reality has one common trait, it's "throw random things at the wall and present them as fact in hopes that no one has a memory better than a tick".

On July 10, 2007 (over 2 years prior to Kessel signing) a 20 year old signed for $8.7 M per.

On July 2, 2008 (over a year before Kessel signed) a 21 year old signed for $8.7 M per.

On August 6, 2005 (over 4 years prior to Kessel signing) a 21 year old signed for $5.4 per.

If not for a lockout, there'd be several more examples, some of whom had far inferior career highs to Kessel when he signed.
 

Bomber0104

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Zeke was correct, you are usually incorrect.

I have been a member since 2007. I find it unlikely that anyone has kept a running tab of my prognostications.

As I said, Corey Perry is MORE sheltered than Phil Kessel, around higher quality players, and yet his production is NOT better than Kessel in the last two seasons.

According to your silly internet stats that are flawed, invalid, and in no way relevant to analyzing a player as an independent?

Cool story.

I've seen people who probably struggle to keep up with the game. Face the facts, Perry regularly floats and makes bonehead plays. He isn't a defensively strong player despite his size.

Facts are one thing, but the collection of meaningless information you have here is another.

During the regular season, he was more sheltered than Kessel and only produced 2 points in the playoffs. Statistics and watching the game tells us that Anaheim lost the line matching game, because both Datsyuk and Zetterberg can take top competition and produce.

Again, according to a collation of meaningless information that is being misinterpreted by a growing number of impressionable yet lazy hockey fans.

On the other hand, Perry faltered against stronger competition, while Kessel, in the regular season, has demonstrates productivity against stronger competition.

Again, according to a collation of meaningless information that is being misinterpreted by a growing number of impressionable yet lazy hockey fans.

Corey Perry is better defensively, more physical, a vocal leader, a pest, a 50 goal scorer (Phil hasn't acheived 40 yet), and a former Stanley Cup and Hart Trophy winner....

There's a reason he's being paid what he is and it's because he is a better overall player than Kessel..according to those who watch hockey, actually understand statistics and how they can be applied to sport with validity and don't base their judgments on a meaningless, faulty, and incomplete collation of numbers.


Yes, I have seen a number of Duck games live in Anaheim. He is not up against top lines like Jeff Carter/ Mike Richards were in the playoffs.

Once again, according to to a collation of meaningless information that is being misinterpreted by a growing number of impressionable yet lazy hockey fans.

This would be alot easier if you just directed us to behindthenet because everything you type is based solely off of free internet stats that not a single credible GM uses to evaluate players.

More so, statistics can tell us who Perry was up against by comparing his competitions relative CORSI. In other words, we can determine who are the puck possession monsters and see how Perry is utilized in line matching.

And once again you are guilty of overextending, misinterpreting, and making false claims based on this.

Let's just say this.

Mikhail Grabovski, being his usual self, spams shots away from the top of the circle. He is rewarded in CORSI for this. He just made a solid play, according to CORSI. Doesn't matter if he had an open man with the net wide open, according to the spreadsheet, he did good. LOL

Clarke Macarthur, on his way back to the bench, uninvolved in the play, is also credited with a good CORSI play (Mikhail Grabovski's 25 foot spam shot).

You tell me face the facts, well this is me facing them. And the fact most reasonable and educated people are faced with is that advanced stats are arbitrary, meaningless, and absolutely bogus.

Face the facts, Perry has to be sheltered to perform. Kessel, on the other hand, can produce against depth scoring teams like the Bruins. He can do it without a top line centre in Getzlaf either, who is also earning $8 million.

Blah blah blah, advanced stats, blah blah blah

You're going to have to search harder on Google for something real.

You're sounding ridiculous. Grabovski started in the defensive zone 75% of the time and was the possession leader on the line, what more do you expect?

I expect him to be better defensively and offensively. No sympathy here for his struggles.

By watching the game, it was clear that Grabovski was taking the puck to the opposition zone. However, his linemates were usually not effectively involved in the offensive zone. If they were so effective, why weren't they possession leaders? That was quite obvious if you payed attention.

Nikolai Kulemin is five times as good as Grabovski defensively and for possession purposes. That would be quite obvious if you payed attention and didn't spend all your time studying bogus google stats.

Grabovski is a puck hog with no vision and little defensive ability, and certainly not worthy of a checking line center role.

Frattin, who was used, tends to play most effectively when posted in the post. However, he still had some opportunities, but luck wasn't with him. Similarly, Kulemin had opportunities, but had a hard time parking himself in front of the net. Let me ask, why is it difficult to maintain possession against the Crosby, Giroux, Staal , top scoring lines?

Luck lol. When the bogus stats don't add up or make any sense, must be luck. Great reasoning.

It's difficult to maintain possession against the best scoring lines in the league because they are better at distributing pucks...something that absolutely no Leaf fan (save for behindthenet fans) would suggest Grabovski is good at.

Next time, use the ice tracker on the NHL website. If you have trouble keeping up with who is on the ice, use it. Many complain that Grabovski "hogs" the puck and doesn't utilize his linemates. I must ask, how is he able to re-gain possession against the top lines in the NHL? These are the offensive specialists, by the way and he still wandered in the offensive zone.

Because there are four other players on the ice that assist in that process of getting the puck to Grabovski so he can penetrate the neutral zone.
 
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sniper81

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Feschuck is actually one of the better Hockey minds i know, can't believe he took a job with the star instead of just basically taking any G.M. job he wanted.
 

Rants Mulliniks

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Jun 22, 2008
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For that basis of reason, is why I proposed trading Kessel in order to obtain a top draft pick and select and groom your own future #1 center in Nathan MacKinnon. They usually come from the draft and are seldom traded when accomplished and proven #1 centers.

Its just too bad Dave Nonis is not more like Cliff Fletcher was as our GM, because he was the kind of GM you could count on to land Toronto a Dougie Gilmour or Mats Sundin and give the team that building block franchise center in trade for the Leafs to build a team around.

Too bad the Senile Fox traded away the guy who could have given us a solid, second tier centre, one of the best defensive centres in the game for nothing.
 

Bomber0104

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Kessel will be re-signed regardless of what the "I watch the game" crowd say. I'd take Kessel's 4 goals, 6 points against Boston's shut down unit over the +$8 million Corey Perry's 2 points.

Again, I find it absolutely puzzling that Leafs fans actually want Kessel and his agent to back the Leafs into a no-win situation.

I pity those who equate skill with gritty play or stature.

Never said that. I just find it hilarious that people actually buy into this advanced stat garbage. They take inherently flawed and invalid statistics, rearrange them, and then decide that somewhere along the way they became unflawed and valid.

Newsflash, there's no way to analyze a player as an independent. This is a term that is used in most Statistics 101 classes, and I think you need to brush up on that.

at said, he'll get his $7-8 million per, and there is very little indication that our GM is not going to do that. That $7.5 million per cap was awarded to Gaborik during a lower cap season, who doesn't perform as well during playoffs.

A player takes the best offer 99 times out of 100. This is not anything new.

Whether or not the Leafs should be the ones handing out that best offer, which remains to be seen, is a dividing point.
 

Pyrophorus

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Jun 1, 2009
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I think the Leafs should resign Phil. He will be a great player for us for years to come. We have a lot of nice pieces here, we could really use a guy like Bickell and another good solid dman. Maybe a year from now we can lure Malkkn here but I truly believe we have the makings of a good team. A guy like Bickell could really help us with players like Lucic. I would be hard pressed to trade Phil. With Lupul and JVR and Kadri, we have to makings of a good nucleus up front.

Whether Phil re-signs or not, Malkin (if not re-signed) should be pursued. Have his previous linemate talk to him--who will also be
a UFA :(
 

htpwn

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Opened this thread expecting (and hoping) it was a bump from one of Cox's past articles but nope... yet another trash piece by a Toronto columnist. If Feschuk isn't among the likes of Cox, Simmons, etc., then he's certainly getting there.

It is funny that one can rip into Phil Kessel, into the way he plays, and then advocates trading him for some massive return like a legitimate number one centre. It's hypocritical in the least. If someone wants to offer a young PPG center for Kessel, great. If not, why would the Leafs want to downgrade their offense?
 

Bomber0104

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Opened this thread expecting (and hoping) it was a bump from one of Cox's past articles but nope... yet another trash piece by a Toronto columnist. If Feschuk isn't among the likes of Cox, Simmons, etc., then he's certainly getting there.

It is funny that one can rip into Phil Kessel, into the way he plays, and then advocates trading him for some massive return like a legitimate number one centre. It's hypocritical in the least. If someone wants to offer a young PPG center for Kessel, great. If not, why would the Leafs want to downgrade their offense?

There's a lot of things you can do with $8 million in salary cap...and I personally believe we can utilize that amount better than blowing it all on one single player.
 

LeafOfBread

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Feb 25, 2010
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Opened this thread expecting (and hoping) it was a bump from one of Cox's past articles but nope... yet another trash piece by a Toronto columnist. If Feschuk isn't among the likes of Cox, Simmons, etc., then he's certainly getting there.

It is funny that one can rip into Phil Kessel, into the way he plays, and then advocates trading him for some massive return like a legitimate number one centre. It's hypocritical in the least. If someone wants to offer a young PPG center for Kessel, great. If not, why would the Leafs want to downgrade their offense?

IMO, Feschuk is worse than Cox and close to Simmons level. This is the idiot who called Reimer's mom.
 

CerebralDevil

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Jul 14, 2011
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Firstly, I don't get the logic of trading Kessel? Basically what that moron says is to trade the leafs best and consistant scoring forward because he is due big $$$ and get unknown's. In a city where hockey is a religion, Kessel has been incredibly good handling the pressure and continues to improve on the ice and only in his early 20's. This has to be the dumbest idea I have read or heard and makes no sense at all. Every time the Leafs have a young player deserving of big $$$$ management should trade him away for players and picks that may not turn out!!!!!! Nonis will keep Kessel and Gardiner and majority of the youth here in TO and look to trade away older Vets who don't fit or diminish skill wise. Secondly, Grabovski has played out his time here and needs to be traded out. The guy is not worth $5.5 million and continues to make errors in playmaking. If he doesn't hang on to the puck the whole time he is in the offensive zone he turns it over with his poor vision or terrible passing plays. I don't understand why the hate for Bozak, the guy is not a 1st line centre but not hinderance to the team either. Bozak should be a 3rd line C realistically, but does some good work, playing along with Kessel and JVR. Liles and Grabo need to go and get some sort picks or defensive D-man back.
 

ULF_55

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Nonis should consider any trade that improves the odds of winning the Cup.

It isn't the player going out that is critical, it is the asset(s) coming in that are.

Kopitar, Kane, Toews the only top 30 scoring players in the playoffs today.

Perhaps it isn't about being the best point producer?
 

The Winter Soldier

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Apr 4, 2011
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Nonis should consider any trade that improves the odds of winning the Cup.

It isn't the player going out that is critical, it is the asset(s) coming in that are.

Kopitar, Kane, Toews the only top 30 scoring players in the playoffs today.

Perhaps it isn't about being the best point producer?

Obcourse, I agree. No one is untouchable if a trade is beneficial to us. This includes Gardiner, if a team offers us a top 7 pick for Jake, Nonis needs to look into it.
 

Kyle Doobas*

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Nonis should consider any trade that improves the odds of winning the Cup.

It isn't the player going out that is critical, it is the asset(s) coming in that are.

Kopitar, Kane, Toews the only top 30 scoring players in the playoffs today.

Perhaps it isn't about being the best point producer?
Perhaps the Penguins would still be in the playoffs if they could produce some points against the Bruins
 

EDDIE20*

Guest
Another winner of an article by The Star. Would it hurt for them to actually hire a legit journalist for once?
 

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