The Star: Maple Leafs, Raptors must lose more to win: Kelly

[rdawg1234]

Different sports, NHL is more of an all-around team game, you can win by being a great all-around solid team with alot of above average players, obviously you have a better chance with some stars.


NBA you NEED at least two stars to contend for a championship, other than maybe Detroit, every team has had the two star(most of them 3 star) group to win a championship.

Miami drafted Wade, brought in Lebron and Bosh, bam all you need is role players.

lakers had Kobe and Gasol(Kobe and O'neil earlier on)
Mavericks had Nowitzki, Jason kidd(and Lebron who was letting the media get to him)
Spurs had their big 3
etc.

The raptors badly need a tank, we're a team destined for repeated 6th-8th seeds and first(maybe 2nd) round exits, legitimately cant see anything else with this core and I dont understand anyone that would believe otherwise.

The leafs have a great core to work with, and simply need to make one or two more key trades or free agent pickups to become a contender, I dont understand why people cant see that this team has already improved (at least defensively) with the additions of Bolland and Clarkson. Give us a #1 C and i'd say we're a contender, add a top 4 d-man on top of that(which could come internally) and we'd be on our way to becoming favourites within a couple seasons.

 

[Morbo]

I'm not saying I agree with it, but if you don't think Kessel and Phanuef are good enough to be the top players on a stanley cup winning team, then you should trade them. because by next season they will be taking up about 15-16 million of our cap. that limits what you can do elsewhere to upgrade the team.

getting rid of them will mean we need to somehow acquire a new top 8 league scorer and top pairing dman...which also will limit what else we can do to upgrade the team.

but if you do that, you need to build around gardiner and reilly basically, and them trade everyone else. because it doesn't make sense to have guys at lupul's age for example and wait for other guys to develop along with new draft picks.

the other outside chance is you make straight up hockey deals for phil and dion and are able to continue on the path were on. but thats pretty unlikely.

It's weird to want to trade an elite young player like Kessel for futures that are, let's face it, very very unlikely to ever be as good as him.

but whatever floats your boat I guess.

 

[borjesalming]

http://www.thestar.com/sports/2013/07/25/maple_leafs_raptors_must_lose_more_to_win_kelly.html




Really?

Some people love to lose.

 

[pcruz]

When I was in high school, 10 years ago, The Toronto Star was the more respected, more informative of the 2 Toronto newspapers and the Toronto Sun was purchased to look at and compare the Sunshine Girl of the day.

Yet I always wondered why such a "respected" newspaper would employ an idiot like Cox. He seemed like the kind of person to be working at the Sun with the other idiot Simmons. And now I see that the Star has one-upped the Sun yet again....in idiocy.

Good thing I don't read the newspapers on my way to school anymore......I might lose a few brain cells a day.

 

[crazyaces**]

Every year each and every team gets to make a first round pick. Every year. Every team.

The majority of players in the league on EVERY team are first round picks.
Saying that the leafs have a lot of 1st round picks is like saying the leafs have a lot of hockey players.

I think I highlighted the fact the leafs have alot of highly drafted players, with 6 of them being in the top 10. Kessel, Lupul, Phaneuf, Reilly, JVR, Kadri

You can't deny there is a huge difference in the quality of players that come out of the first round, but not only keeping those draft picks, using them, and keeping the player you draft. All of this goes a long way to the success of a franchise.

As well the article in question is suggesting the leafs need to tank and get more 1st round picks, when we are loaded already with them.... when the time is now!

 

[Lightsol]

while we are at it, lets just have you tell everyone what they should think. easier that way.

Okay, telling people what they should think is obviously stupid, but I made a similar suggestion a few years ago, simply because there are certain posters around here who do nothing but post negative responses to EVERYTHING. In fact, when I came in here, I already had a good idea on who would have posted, and what they posted, and it was pretty accurate.

Seriously, look up Disgruntled Observer's entire history of posting. I'd be utterly shocked if he said anything not directly related to us getting "ripped off" by Boston since 2009.

I think I highlighted the fact the leafs have alot of highly drafted players, with 6 of them being in the top 10. Kessel, Lupul, Phaneuf, Reilly, JVR, Kadri

Yeah, but BRIAN BURKE acquired them all, so they're garbage. To make DO happy, Nonis should trade everybody and rebuild again, to eliminate the horrible Brian Burke taint, especially that absolutely awful Kessel deal. 'Cause Seguin's guaranteed to carry Boston to bigger and better things

 

[Squiffy]

Kelly must have been ha rd up today. I generally like his columns, bit humorous, pretty vanilla, is what it is. just a lazy tAnk nation filler article here, not a spot of insight or his usual redeeming humour.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Every year each and every team gets to make a first round pick. Every year. Every team.

The majority of players in the league on EVERY team are first round picks.
Saying that the leafs have a lot of 1st round picks is like saying the leafs have a lot of hockey players.

Love the honesty and intelligence of your posts DO....keep up the good work. Would be nice for someone to list the # of first round picks on each respective roster. What you say makes a heap of logical sense. The percentage of First rounders who actually make an impact in pro sports is much higher than any other draft round. So yes it does stand to reason that any team in any sport..especially if they are any good..will have a lot of first round picks on their roster. Not just the Leafs.

 

[highslot]

because there are literally almost 1/2 the number of players on an nba team and 12 starters, it's much easier to turn a team around with one superstar in the nba.

however, saying that the leafs have to tank after making 5th place and also taking the conference finalists to 7 games is asinine.

we also having a top 5 scorer, top 10 scoring d and 2 goalies with among the league's best save percentage.

now we have a third line that should be able to shut down, some good defensive prospects and a developing star in kadri. i think we are doing fine. i'm not sure i would have made the bernier trade or signed clarkson for the moon, but i reserve judgement.

i'd also say that the level of intelligence and writing in that article equals something rosie dimanno level.

 

[colchar]

Well Leiweke believes in building through the draft and you don't do that by squeaking into the playoffs and early round exits while picking in the later part of the 1st round. The high-end future talent is generally found at the beginning of the draft, and that means finishing near the bottom of the standings.

That hasn't worked out real well for the Oilers has it?

Meanwhile, Detroit has been a model of consistency and what have they had - something like four or five first round picks in the last ten or fifteen years?

I know which of those two teams I'd rather see the Leafs model themselves after.

 

[zeke]

The Leafs are the youngest team in hockey, were a very good team last year, and have a core almost entirely built out of top draft picks:

Kessel #5
Lupul #7
Kadri #7
JVR #2

Phaneuf #9
Gardiner #17
Rielly #5

Reimer #99
Bernier #11

 

[Lightsol]

Love the honesty and intelligence of your posts DO....keep up the good work.

Of course you do. Like DO, you're a Leaf hater masquerading as a Leaf fan. No fan would spend 5 years without making a single positive post regarding the team in question.

 

[Billy6]

Judging by the comments here I thnk people are not paying close enough attention to the message in this article which is that sometimes it's necessary to strip things down and rebuild. I didn't read into that he believes that the time to do that is now for the Leafs.

The reality is that the Leafs have been horrible in general with a few exceptions in he last forty years, and the other MLSE teams have been horrible for their entire existence. This doesn't happen by accident. This is the result of poor ownership and management and an overall poor philosophy on how to get better.

This is what I'm hoping is changing with the Bell/Rogers ownership and Leiweke.

Now is not the time to strip down the Leafs, but 10 years ago and five years ago was, and they regrettably didn't do it. If another time to rebuild surfaces in the next decade I'm confident that they will do what's right next time and if it avoids another nine year run outside of the playoffs then it will be well worth it.

You can disagree with tanking all you want, but obviously what the Leafs did instead over the last ten years was much worse, and the Leafs have never put a big emphasis on the draft in the thirty years that I've been a fan. That needs to change. Whether you're drafting 1st or 30th you need to make your picks count more often than not which has not happened with this franchise enough.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Of course you do. Like DO, you're a Leaf hater masquerading as a Leaf fan. No fan would spend 5 years without making a single positive post regarding the team in question.

DO writes humorous posts that often ring true and I happen to agree with. Has nothing to do with a Leaf hater masquerading as a Leaf fan. Stop trolling me.

 

[egd27]

Writer says NHL teams need first round draft picks to be successful so the leafs need to tank to get them.
Poster correctly points out Leafs have a number of high first round picks on the team.

One of the usual suspects mocks the post completely missing the point yet again.

And the other one congratulates him for a humorous post.

But they love the Leafs. What a joke.

 

[The Apologist]

Of course you do. Like DO, you're a Leaf hater masquerading as a Leaf fan. No fan would spend 5 years without making a single positive post regarding the team in question.

I love the honesty and intelligence of your posts Lightsol

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Writer says NHL teams need first round draft picks to be successful so the leafs need to tank to get them.
Poster correctly points out Leafs have a number of high first round picks on the team.

One of the usual suspects mocks the post completely missing the point yet again.

And the other one congratulates him for a humorous post.

But they love the Leafs. What a joke.

The only joke is that posters such as yourself don't think that fans of one of the worst franchises in the sport over the last decade, have any right to be critical of the team.

Now that is a joke.

To me Disgruntled Observer at least is honest. Not like some fools who are happy with garbage being fed to them year after year after year.

 

[Billy6]

The only joke is that posters such as yourself don't think that fans of one of the worst franchises in the sport over the last decade, have any right to be critical of the team.

Now that is a joke.

To me Disgruntled Observer at least is honest. Not like some fools who are happy with garbage being fed to them year after year after year.

Amen brother.

Anybody who doesn't think that the sheep that continue feeding on the garbage produced by this franchise on a decade to decade basis for the last forty years aren't a big part of the reason for the Leafs owning the longest Cup drought are naive.

 

[Stats01]

Finish 5th in the East...

Well, time to rebuild

That's the first thing I thought when I saw the headline...wtf is this guy smoking? Yeah let's abandon ship and just start re-build after making the playoffs for the first time in 8 years. Just a ridiculous article. When you make the playoffs for the first time in almost a decade you're supposed to go forward not stop go back-wards and start over again lol...Man I really hate the writers in this city.

 

[Stats01]

Kelly has ventured the same path as Feschuk, all of a sudden covering hockey for some unknown reason. And becoming extremely irritating all the while.

The Leafs should continue to build through the draft, but that comes through good scouting and nailing their picks whatever the position. The days of the Leafs bottoming out and finishing top 3-5 are over.

Bingo!! It doesn't matter where you draft, if you nail your picks and have a good scouting staff you shouldn't have to cheat by being bad enough to draft first overall, what kind of management is that..I really really hate teams who just bottom out because they're too stupid enough to make good decisions with their cap or with trades. And for the media and the writers in this city to promote this garbage is pathetic.

 

[Quares27]

I think the Raptors have a chance at the playoffs but i'd rather see them finish last and get Wiggins. Amazing player and he's always wanted to play for TO.

They could finish 8th though. The team isn't too bad now IMO. They have Gay for a full season, Derozan is always good, Valanciunas continues to improve, Lowry is good, they added some decent players from the Knicks and signed Hansbrough.

Suggesting the Leafs rebuild is Pejorative Slured after they finally made the playoffs for the first time in 9 years. It's not like the team is old either

 

[Stats01]

The article is completely right in saying that the way to win a championship is through a commited rebuild. ESPECIALLY in the NBA. The raptors need to tank for three or four years. Plain and simple. As for the NHL, the leafs can't turn around now. They have to run with this core for the foreseeable future and hope things turn out. If it doesn't though, then they serious had better figure it out this time.

what do the Leafs seriously have to figure out? What have the Leafs done that has been so terrible. They've been patient with their prospects, we've kept our first round picks, we've kept most of our picks over the past 5 years while also spending to the cap...What else do you want the team to do? The Leafs just have to keep doing what they're doing, we have a young core with us and our cupboards are filled with up and coming prospects in junior, with the Marlies.

 

[Stats01]

Judging by the comments here I thnk people are not paying close enough attention to the message in this article which is that sometimes it's necessary to strip things down and rebuild. I didn't read into that he believes that the time to do that is now for the Leafs.

The reality is that the Leafs have been horrible in general with a few exceptions in he last forty years, and the other MLSE teams have been horrible for their entire existence. This doesn't happen by accident. This is the result of poor ownership and management and an overall poor philosophy on how to get better.

This is what I'm hoping is changing with the Bell/Rogers ownership and Leiweke.

Now is not the time to strip down the Leafs, but 10 years ago and five years ago was, and they regrettably didn't do it. If another time to rebuild surfaces in the next decade I'm confident that they will do what's right next time and if it avoids another nine year run outside of the playoffs then it will be well worth it.

You can disagree with tanking all you want, but obviously what the Leafs did instead over the last ten years was much worse, and the Leafs have never put a big emphasis on the draft in the thirty years that I've been a fan. That needs to change. Whether you're drafting 1st or 30th you need to make your picks count more often than not which has not happened with this franchise enough.

This is the problem with the article, the message is OLD! writers have been talking about re-building like it's going out of style. Sure 5-10 years ago the team should've re-built but we are way past that time. The writer is cluless the article sucks. End of story.

What the Leafs have done since '09 with the Kadri pick, is be patient, keeping their picks and drafting, we have to be patient. But these idiot writers somehow what a fast re-build which makes no sense. They want to have their cake and eat it too. YEAH RE-BUILD BUT DO IT QUICKLY!!...doesn't make sense at all. Promoting tanking is really dumb.

I honestly am laughing right now because what the Leafs are doing is building through the draft quietly and the writers in this city are completely oblivious to it. I bet Kelly couldn't name who we drafted in the 3rd round back in '09. People who don't know hockey shouldn't be writing about the Leafs cause it makes our fan base look like idiots

 

[egd27]

The only joke is that posters such as yourself don't think that fans of one of the worst franchises in the sport over the last decade, have any right to be critical of the team.

Now that is a joke.

To me Disgruntled Observer at least is honest. Not like some fools who are happy with garbage being fed to them year after year after year.

Kelly writes in the article:
There is only one well-paved road toward winning in the NHL and the NBA — through the draft. Not one lucky draft. Not one diamond you stumbled on in the third round because nobody else bothered to scout Estonia. We’re talking about a core of elite talent drawn from the top five or 10 picks.
In order to stockpile those sorts of players, you must first lose. A lot. For a long time.


Crazyaces refutes Kelly by pointing out that the Leafs have 13 First Round picks in the system in total with six of them being top 10 picks.

Disgruntled then adds:

Every year each and every team gets to make a first round pick. Every year. Every team.

The majority of players in the league on EVERY team are first round picks.
Saying that the leafs have a lot of 1st round picks is like saying the leafs have a lot of hockey players.

What is humorous, honest, intelligent or insightful?

What exactly has he added other than trying to dismiss the contribution Crazyaces has accurately made?

 

[canadiancreed]

/thread

Ah the hipster columnist. Explains the "one stregety fits everything" post. He really should stick to the NBA and MLS, or even better, be replaced by someone better.