Confirmed with Link: Maple Leafs Name Laurence Gilman Assistant General Manager

[93LEAFS]

What do you mean markets himself? He has been working for the same company for 4 years. Who is he marketing himself to? Because he spoke at 1 conference 4 years ago?

That's his image league wide and what made him intriguing to Shanahan, and other NHL teams trying to get in on Hockey Analytics.

 

[Liminality]

That's his image league wide and what made him intriguing to Shanahan, and other NHL teams trying to get in on Hockey Analytics.

Shanahan was looking for bright, hockey minds. He picked up Hunter right? He couldn't have only been searching for analytic guys.

His image seems to be a guy who understands the old school and tries to help it with analytics. I don't think people are accepting of that yet.

 

[93LEAFS]

Shanahan was looking for bright, hockey minds. He picked up Hunter right? He couldn't have only been searching for analytic guys.

His image seems to be a guy who understands the old school and tries to help it with analytics. I don't think people are accepting of that yet.

He hired Dubas specifically to build the teams analytic team and hired Hunter to do a very different task (evaluate and fix the scouting staff).

 

[Growler]

That's his image league wide and what made him intriguing to Shanahan, and other NHL teams trying to get in on Hockey Analytics.

Of course he is intriguing. He looks like firkin Harry Potter. Who is not intrigued?

 

[Liminality]

He hired Dubas specifically to build the teams analytic team and hired Hunter to do a very different task (evaluate and fix the scouting staff).

Yes but I don't think he hired them with the intention of keeping them in those roles forever. He's been planning for one of them to take the GM role with that search right?

 

[Growler]

He hired Dubas specifically to build the teams analytic team and hired Hunter to do a very different task (evaluate and fix the scouting staff).

And then he drafted Nielsen. Go figure.

 

[Growler]

Yes but I don't think he hired them with the intention of keeping them in those roles forever. He's been planning for one of them to take the GM role with that search right?

MLSE Survivor Island.

 

[Morbo]

We couldn't block the hire if it was for full control of the Avs Hockey Ops.

I really don't know what you're talking about there.

Anyway, again, why not the elder more respectable hockey guy Hunter?

He clearly markets himself as someone who understands analytics and uses it to his advantage.

Clearly? did you have an example of this?

 

[93LEAFS]

I really don't know what you're talking about there.

Anyway, again, why not the elder more respectable hockey guy Hunter?



Clearly? did you have an example of this?

The Leafs can't block a hire from another team, if it is a clear promotion. Which is why we were able to stop the Avs pursuit of Dubas. They weren't removing Sakic or giving him the traditional GM role.

Why do you think he got the interview with Shanahan, he speaks at analytics events (he hasn't the last 3 years, as Lou doesn't allow AGM's to do those types of events). Look at how he gets written up by people such as Mirtle. He sold his ability to Shanahan based on how he was forward thinking, and his first major task with the Toronto Maple Leafs organization was to build an analytics staff. That and the Marlies are his two primary roles the last 3 years. I don't see the need to deny that his inclination to embrace analytics is a significant reason for his popularity among people like Josh Kroenke and Andrew Barroway. Neither job though was fully in control of Hockey Ops. In Arizona, he would have been under Tippett and in Colorado, he would be under Sakic.

The Coyotes and Avs were both interested in having a younger and analytically inclined person in the front office. It is why when Dubas turned down Arizona, they quickly pivoted to Chayka.

 

[Morbo]

The Leafs can't block a hire from another team, if it is a clear promotion. Which is why we were able to stop the Avs pursuit of Dubas. They weren't removing Sakic or giving him the traditional GM role.

Says who? Why can't they? where is this rule written? what is your source here?

Why do you think he got the interview with Shanahan, he speaks at analytics events (he hasn't the last 3 years, as Lou doesn't allow AGM's to do those types of events). Look at how he gets written up by people such as Mirtle. He sold his ability to Shanahan based on how he was forward thinking, and his first major task with the Toronto Maple Leafs organization was to build an analytics staff. That and the Marlies are his two primary roles the last 3 years. I don't see the need to deny that his inclination to embrace analytics is a significant reason for his popularity among people like Josh Kroenke and Andrew Barroway. Neither job though was fully in control of Hockey Ops. In Arizona, he would have been under Tippett and in Colorado, he would be under Sakic.

The Coyotes and Avs were both interested in having a younger and analytically inclined person in the front office. It is why when Dubas turned down Arizona, they quickly pivoted to Chayka.

I see you've moved the goalposts from "clearly markets himself as an analytics guy" to "inclination to embrace analytics". also again, where is your source on the bolded? would like to see where these details are coming from.

funny you mentioned Mirtle, I did indeed take a look at how he gets written up:

Mirtle: Kyle Dubas won't be defined by hockey's archaic...

 

[93LEAFS]

Says who? Why can't they? where is this rule written? what is your source here?



I see you've moved the goalposts from "clearly markets himself as an analytics guy" to "inclination to embrace analytics". also again, where is your source on the bolded? would like to see where these details are coming from.

funny you mentioned Mirtle, I did indeed take a look at how he gets written up:

Mirtle: Kyle Dubas won't be defined by hockey's archaic...

Its a commonly known league-wide rule, that you can't hire someone from another team unless it is a clear promotion or they are out of contract. Its why some team couldn't hire someone like DJ Smith as an assistant. But, if another team comes calling for an interview for a Head Coaching job within the hiring window, we would have to allow him to interview.

Mirtle for the last 3 years while he has pumped Dubas's tires, constantly mentions his use of analytics.

Mirtle: Will Kyle Dubas be the next GM of the Maple Leafs?

What’s made it manageable is there isn’t as much overlap, given Dubas has remained largely focused on the Marlies, player development and the analytics team. There is a lot to do in a big organization, and he has his plate full.

The work Dubas has done with building out not only the analytics team but also the player development side has been impressive.

Mirtle: What is really going on with Kyle Dubas and the...

One result of that is Dubas’ voice has been marginalized. ‌‌‌How much is hard to say given we’re not in the room when big decisions are made, but it appears he’s relegated mostly to running the Toronto Marlies and overseeing the Leafs’ analytics team. He is also, as Elliotte Friedman has termed it, serving a long sentence in media jail. (I haven’t spoken to Dubas privately in a long time, including for this story.)

Avs ownership is also increasingly interested in people like Dubas. Josh Kroenke, the 37-year-old Walmart heir who oversees the family’s NHL, NBA and soccer interests, has been spotted at analytics conferences, mingling with the crowd.

Mirtle: Dubas hire signals new era for Maple Leafs

An entire analytics department with people tracking new and compelling info, as other NHL teams are currently doing and as Dubas had created on a shoestring budget – with a ticket sales rep, an intern and a business manager doing the tracking – in the Soo?

Easily doable here, on a whole different level.

The possibilities are really endless, and that's part of what drew Dubas to the opportunity and the Leafs to him. He'll be in charge of creating something entirely new here, a foreign concept in an organization that has relied on old-school notions of team-building for decades, even as the league has rapidly evolved around them.

 

[Liminality]

Mirtle for the last 3 years while he has pumped Dubas's tires, constantly mentions his use of analytics.

Mirtle: Will Kyle Dubas be the next GM of the Maple Leafs?

Mirtle: What is really going on with Kyle Dubas and the...

I think you're overrating the praise from Mirtle a bit. Don't you have connections on how Dubas runs his teams or his scouting from years ago or something?
I also think Simmonds' puff pieces on Hunter are not going to be the reason why he lands a job (if he does land a job) somewhere else in the NHL. It's going to be because he's a smart hockey guy, just like Dubas.

Now that I think about it, I'd take Mirtle over Simmonds giving praise any day of the week.

 

[93LEAFS]

I think you're overrating the praise from Mirtle a bit. Don't you have connection on how Dubas runs his teams or his scouting from years ago or something?
I also think Simmonds' puff pieces on Hunter are not going to be the reason why he lands a job (if he does land a job) somewhere else in the NHL. It's going to be because he's a smart hockey guy, just like Dubas.

Now that I think about it, I'd take Mirtle over Simmonds giving praise any day of the week.

My main point was that Dubas's appeal to teams like Colorado and Arizona was based on his reputation and understanding of Hockey Analytics. Something Hunter doesn't offer. People want to believe he's the hockey version of Theo Epstein, I hope that is true for the Leafs (although, I'm highly suspicious). If someone repeatedly asks for sources, on something that is generally based on hearsay and league-wide reputation, Mirtle's articles are the easiest was to show it.

I know people around Junior Hockey, especially in Ontario. I don't personally know Dubas or his Soo buddies.

 

[Antropovsky]

I'm not going to complain that our management team now consists of two "cap guru's" and one "analytics geek".... tack on the no-nonsense star power/connection that Shanahan has and I feel pretty damn confident about our management team.

Much prefer this approach then hiring the dinosaurs that win once and try to duplicate the same one time successful roster everywhere they go (Brian Burke/Chia).

Or hiring former NHL players with little to no GM experience, and hope to luck out (Brett Hull, Joe nieuwendyk, Ron Francis....etc).

 

[MR4]

The Leafs can't block a hire from another team, if it is a clear promotion. Which is why we were able to stop the Avs pursuit of Dubas. They weren't removing Sakic or giving him the traditional GM role.

Why do you think he got the interview with Shanahan, he speaks at analytics events (he hasn't the last 3 years, as Lou doesn't allow AGM's to do those types of events). Look at how he gets written up by people such as Mirtle. He sold his ability to Shanahan based on how he was forward thinking, and his first major task with the Toronto Maple Leafs organization was to build an analytics staff. That and the Marlies are his two primary roles the last 3 years. I don't see the need to deny that his inclination to embrace analytics is a significant reason for his popularity among people like Josh Kroenke and Andrew Barroway. Neither job though was fully in control of Hockey Ops. In Arizona, he would have been under Tippett and in Colorado, he would be under Sakic.

The Coyotes and Avs were both interested in having a younger and analytically inclined person in the front office. It is why when Dubas turned down Arizona, they quickly pivoted to Chayka.

Lmao he got the interview with Shanny because he turned the Soo from trash to a top team in the league structured to be that way for a long time. His analytics knowledge was a supporting factor in both his OHL success and the interview, but there were bigger names in the analytics community that would've been hired if it was the main factor in hiring for the position

 

[93LEAFS]

Lmao he got the interview with Shanny because he turned the Soo from trash to a top team in the league structured to be that way for a long time. His analytics knowledge was a supporting factor in both his OHL success and the interview, but there were bigger names in the analytics community that would've been hired if it was the main factor in hiring for the position

The Soo wasn't a top team. They finished 4th in the Western conference and got swept in the Semi-finals.

He was found as a candidate because he was a young promising executive with an OHL team who embraced analytics. Pretty much everyone else who was a name, had no real hands-on experience running a team, if you are referring to people like Dellow, Vic Ferrari and Eric Tultsy.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I'm not going to complain that our management team now consists of two "cap guru's" and one "analytics geek".... tack on the no-nonsense star power/connection that Shanahan has and I feel pretty damn confident about our management team.

Much prefer this approach then hiring the dinosaurs that win once and try to duplicate the same one time successful roster everywhere they go (Brian Burke/Chia).

Or hiring former NHL players with little to no GM experience, and hope to luck out (Brett Hull, Joe nieuwendyk, Ron Francis....etc).

For every Yzerman there are a bunch of failures.

 

[Leaf Fans]

He didn't get absolute control. It wasn't to fully run Hockey Ops. This is why we were able to block the hire.

Also, who NHL owners want, isn't always in touch with the rank and file of the league. He sold himself as an analytics guy, and teams want that, which is why Arizona showed legit interest, then pivoted to Chayka.

That is not True: "
Sources in Colorado and Toronto have said little about the permission the Maple Leafs granted the Colorado Avalanche to speak to assistant general manager Kyle Dubas — which Toronto quickly revoked.
A report on TSN’s Insider Trading on Wednesday suggested the window shut because the Leafs did not know Avs officials intended to offer Dubas a job, one with reported total control of hockey operations in Denver." (Maple Leafs, Avalanche not on same page on Dubas’ availability: Report) My bolding

"
Bob McKenzie on Kyle Dubas’ offer from Colorado (TSN1050)
Bob McKenzie, on his most recent Bobcast, shed some light on the Dubas-Colorado connection from late May:

Dubas is not going to Colorado, but here is my understanding: The contact being made was from Colorado ownership. The contact with the Leafs and Dubas was in hopes of getting Dubas to come in and run the entire hockey operation of the Colorado Avalanche. What that means for everybody else there, and what the timing on all that is, I’m not sure. But we do know now that Dubas isn’t going to Colorado; at least not now." (https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2017...ren-dreger-william-nylanders-second-contract/) My bolding.


Moreover, Dubas has said right from the beginning that he is not just an analytics guy, but he uses them.
“People trying to determine whether I’m a hockey guy or an analytics guy, I mean, the reality of it that I’m someone whose worked in hockey my entire life that over the past number of years has begun to develop a usefulness for analytics that have really helped us (with the Greyhounds) over time,” Dubas said in an interview on Marek Vs. Wyshynski. He added, “It’s a piece of the puzzle, it’s not the whole secret sauce or anything like that … It’s been a big help to us in reducing uncertainty and just gathering more information. It’s not a one-way or the other proportion.” (Analytics just piece of puzzle to Leafs’ Dubas)​

 

[93LEAFS]

That is not True: "
Sources in Colorado and Toronto have said little about the permission the Maple Leafs granted the Colorado Avalanche to speak to assistant general manager Kyle Dubas — which Toronto quickly revoked.
A report on TSN’s Insider Trading on Wednesday suggested the window shut because the Leafs did not know Avs officials intended to offer Dubas a job, one with reported total control of hockey operations in Denver." (Maple Leafs, Avalanche not on same page on Dubas’ availability: Report) My bolding

"
Bob McKenzie on Kyle Dubas’ offer from Colorado (TSN1050)
Bob McKenzie, on his most recent Bobcast, shed some light on the Dubas-Colorado connection from late May:

Dubas is not going to Colorado, but here is my understanding: The contact being made was from Colorado ownership. The contact with the Leafs and Dubas was in hopes of getting Dubas to come in and run the entire hockey operation of the Colorado Avalanche. What that means for everybody else there, and what the timing on all that is, I’m not sure. But we do know now that Dubas isn’t going to Colorado; at least not now." (Leafs Links: Kyle Dubas had offer to "run the entire hockey operation" in Colorado, Darren Dreger on William Nylander's second contract | Maple Leafs Hotstove) My bolding.


Moreover, Dubas has said right from the beginning that he is not just an analytics guy, but he uses them.
“People trying to determine whether I’m a hockey guy or an analytics guy, I mean, the reality of it that I’m someone whose worked in hockey my entire life that over the past number of years has begun to develop a usefulness for analytics that have really helped us (with the Greyhounds) over time,” Dubas said in an interview on Marek Vs. Wyshynski. He added, “It’s a piece of the puzzle, it’s not the whole secret sauce or anything like that … It’s been a big help to us in reducing uncertainty and just gathering more information. It’s not a one-way or the other proportion.” (Analytics just piece of puzzle to Leafs’ Dubas)​

If it was to run Hockey Ops, we would have had issues in actually blocking the hire. As that would have been a clear promotion. From my understanding, it was a position under Joe Sakic. Which is why Sakic is still in place as the head of Hockey Ops there. It is very unclear what happened there. As reported by Friedman at the time.

Friedman: Window closed for Kyle Dubas in Colorado - Sportsnet.ca

Pretty much all NHL employees have clear outs in their contracts for a job higher than their current title if it is offered by another team.

 

[Leaf Fans]

If it was to run Hockey Ops, we would have had issues in actually blocking the hire. As that would have been a clear promotion. From my understanding, it was a position under Joe Sakic. Which is why Sakic is still in place as the head of Hockey Ops there. It is very unclear what happened there. As reported by Friedman at the time.

Friedman: Window closed for Kyle Dubas in Colorado - Sportsnet.ca

Pretty much all NHL employees have clear outs in their contracts for a job higher than their current title if it is offered by another team.

It is possible. I am far from an expert on NHL contracts, but is there any evidence that this is in fact the case? Are contracts public? I have never heard this before, in a regular contract, for example mine, I can only talk to another company (above board no media will report on me) with permission from mine and they, not me, control how long and under what conditions for any position.

 

[93LEAFS]

It is possible. I am far from an expert on NHL contracts, but is there any evidence that this is in fact the case? Are contracts public? I have never heard this before, in a regular contract, for example mine, I can only talk to another company (above board no media will report on me) with permission from mine and they, not me, control how long and under what conditions for any position.

Pretty much all NHL executive contracts have an out for a promotion. Now, there are issues about timelines, which is why Colorado was screwed when Roy quit in August, because almost no team was willing to give permission to talk to their assistants. Its why you only see people promoted when they switch teams unless they are out of contract such as Babcock.

What happened with Dubas and Colorado is quite confusing, and the full story has never really gotten out. What exactly his role was (was it full control of hockey ops? GM under Sakic? or a lateral hire), and who exactly was recruiting him (was it Sakic or was it, Josh Kroenke).

If they shut down the interviews in like August, it would make sense. But, the Dubas situation happened in late May. Now, the Leafs could have told him that they wanted to re-sign him and promote him in time, but then the story would just have been Dubas turned down the Colorado opportunity to extend his contract with the Leafs.

Something weird had to have happened for the Leafs to pull permission. Whether it was due to Colorado being misleading about the type of interview (some claiming that Leafs were letting them ask him stuff about analytics as they searched for someone), but its pretty weird they would allow an interview that could leak trade secrets.

If some team came to the Leafs tomorrow and asked to interview DJ Smith or Sheldon Keefe for a head-coaching job, we would allow that to happen and would only pull permission if they were trying to hire them as assistants. Its pretty much unheard of for a team to grant permission for someone to be interviewed for a promotion elsewhere, and then have the permission suddenly revoked. This is really the only example I can think of in recent NHL history.

The final option is that the interview window closed without Dubas being offered the job.

 

[Leaf Fans]

... Its why you only see people promoted when they switch teams unless they are out of contract such as Babcock.

Like I said, I am far from an expert on NHL contracts, but that cannot be the only reason. It is the reason why they accept a new job with another team. I am not trying just to dispute you don't think that it is something that would necessitate being built into a contract. At any rate, if permission has to be grated, it is not an out in a contract, any contract.
".... pretty much unheard of for a team to grant permission for someone to be interviewed for a promotion elsewhere, and then have the permission suddenly revoked." Sure, I have never heard of it either, but it is meaningless without the full context which you yourself have stated "the full story has never really gotten out." Assuming there is a full story as what has gotten out is that the Avs wanted Dubas for hockey ops.

 

[93LEAFS]

Like I said, I am far from an expert on NHL contracts, but that cannot be the only reason. It is the reason why they accept a new job with another team. I am not trying just to dispute you don't think that it is something that would necessitate being built into a contract. At any rate, if permission has to be grated, it is not an out in a contract, any contract.
".... pretty much unheard of for a team to grant permission for someone to be interviewed for a promotion elsewhere, and then have the permission suddenly revoked." Sure, I have never heard of it either, but it is meaningless without the full context which you yourself have stated "the full story has never really gotten out." Assuming there is a full story as what has gotten out is that the Avs wanted Dubas for hockey ops.

The reports at the time were quite mixed on what happened. The Avs go to beat writer had a conflicting report to that of McKenzie, as shown in these tweets.

 

[Leaf Fans]

The reports at the time were quite mixed on what happened. The Avs go to beat writer had a conflicting report to that of McKenzie, as shown in these tweets.

Quite a difference. Who knows?

 

[crump]

Whatever it was, I am glad we have him. I think he is the best choice in the long run ( between him and Hunter). He may be young, but he is smart. Surrounding himself with other youngish executives with understanding of the modern game only confirms this. I liked Hunter, but the better man won the position.