Sportsnet: Maple Leafs must add proven defenders, move on from all-offence identity

[JT AM da real deal]

The goal is to try to win. Dubas and Shanny would be risking their jobs going with those 3 rookies if it goes south.

They may be gone anywho ... I do not like their odds to survive da board mtg next week ... either they both go on same day or they convince board to go with a NEW plan to FIX team ... if they go in that mtg with well we are gonna do same old same old and keep da shannaplan going then it is likely they hear well thank you boys but your services are no longer required here

 

[Buds17]

Somebody correct me if I am wrong but what the HELL do we have to lose by just playing Rasmus and Lilly going forward? They are young and skilled and cannot by any worse than Ceci and Marincin?

We also have Mikko Lehtonen who we picked up not long ago.

What would we have to lose by just playing

Rasmus
Lilly
Lehtonen

We are already losing and the backend already is a tire fire. Why not have

Reilly
Dermott
Muzz
Rasmus
Lilly
Lehtonen

I am also kind of amazed we have not even draft lucked into a top top Dman. Hell some teams do it over and over (Tampa Canes Bruins)

It could work, but that might be under an absolutely, best case scenario. The forward group is built to compete now. That blueline group - while promising - is further behind in its development. The two may not mesh as well as we'd like. It'd be nice to gain at some point. What we'd have to lose is not improving as a team.

Edit: Holl would also bump one of the three rookies from the starting lineup.

 

[ToneDog]

They may be gone anywho ... I do not like their odds to survive da board mtg next week ... either they both go on same day or they convince board to go with a NEW plan to FIX team ... if they go in that mtg with well we are gonna do same old same old and keep da shannaplan going then it is likely they hear well thank you boys but your services are no longer required here

Fingers crossed Dubas cannot bullshit his way into another year.

 

[TopChedder]

The goal is to try to win. Dubas and Shanny would be risking their jobs going with those 3 rookies if it goes south.

Well when do they let them play? Or do we keep Lilly and Sandin mostly in the minors until they are 25 and maybe ready?

Yes I am being a tad extreme but we draft players for a reason and these are not bad prospects.

We have Cody Ceci and Martin Marincin playing.......... we allow those two guys to play on our backend. How in the world can that be better (nhl experience aside)

 

[Pi]

This may sound a bit simplistic but I think it's both.

They need to change their identity a bit in the top 6/9 and upgrade at least the top pairing.

Obviously CLB's strength is their defensive identity and that top pair, so I wouldn't suddenly expect Toronto to have that, but our defender never really feel dangerous defensively or offensively. Rielly does a decent job but he usually shoots wide from the point and isn't exactly a bruiser.

And then as you said, in the top 6/9 they have too many similar players. Need some more guys who function like Hyman.

Doing nothing and stagnating is the worse option going forward. In a perfect world we turn Nylander or Marner and Johnsson into a more suitable winger and a top pairing rhd. I'd personally trade Andersen as well, and that's not just in response to this series where I thought he was okay. I have many reasons for that belief but don't want to derail the thread.

Edit: I agree with the above as well. The depth failed the team more than anyone. Which is probably more of a reason they'll need to reallocate some salary.

Yeah we definitely need to change the makeup of this team but you don’t try to win games like the Blue Jackets when you have Matthews and Tavares.

Yes the Jackets beat us but does anyone think they are really a threat to win with how they play? No chance. Their goalies were a combined .980SV% in ES. That’s just not going to last.

Our offensive depth failed us big time. Our D sucks, that’s a fact. I didn’t expect to get shutout twice in 5 games though. If you had to pin the loss on anything it’s goaltending and offense.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Legitimate top four defensemen on the Leafs:

Rielly (#1)
Muzzin (#2-#3)

That's it. That's all this team has. We've overrated the talent and potential of the rest of the defenders and we've witnessed so time and time again. Everyone else on defence is a #5 at best or shouldn't be in the NHL. Ceci and Barrie are obvious targets but Dermott and Holl weren't much better. Marincin didn't have one of his patented gaffes but he should not be near an NHL roster, even with injuries.

The Leafs couldn't score this series and lacked finish, but how many plays died when the puck ended up back at the blue line? Barrie was atrocious with the puck and Ceci made countless stupid passes. Dermott's and Holl's pinching instincts were awful as well. If the defence can't even be great offensively what good are they then?

Team needs to make big changes to the defence if they want to compete soon. If they don't we're going to see Sandin, Liljegren, and Lehtonen thrown to the wolves while over-relying on Dermott and Holl again and we'll lose.

 

[Carltons Cup]

Somebody correct me if I am wrong but what the HELL do we have to lose by just playing Rasmus and Lilly going forward? They are young and skilled and cannot by any worse than Ceci and Marincin?

We also have Mikko Lehtonen who we picked up not long ago.

What would we have to lose by just playing

Rasmus
Lilly
Lehtonen

We are already losing and the backend already is a tire fire. Why not have

Reilly
Dermott
Muzz
Rasmus
Lilly
Lehtonen

I am also kind of amazed we have not even draft lucked into a top top Dman. Hell some teams do it over and over (Tampa Canes Bruins)

We have a lọt to lose like a lọt of games. You are asking for a lot of trouble starting 3 unproven rookies on defence.

 

[Strangle]

No?

Why are we focusing on defense in a series that the Leafs gave up very few good chances to the Jackets? Lets face it. If Andersen is the Jackets goalie, Leafs win this series easily.

They need to figure out what went wrong with the offense and why it was shut out twice in a 5 game series.

They need to move certain types of similar wingers like one of Nylander or Marner, two of Mikheyev, Johnsson, Kapanen, etc.

We need 2-3 more Hyman type wingers on the team so that when the going gets tough, they don't stop playing.

you couldn’t be more wrong.

If Jones is in front of the net instead of Marincin, jackets don’t score that “soft” goal

 

[Gary Nylund]

An overlooked narrative from the series is actually that the Leafs by most accounts were fine defensively. They limited the Jackets high danger chances. And a fair number of the Jackets goals were flukey (the game winner during game 5 for example)

It wasn't perfect by any stretch, but it showed the system was effective. If/when the team gets better top four guys either via trade free agency or internal development of guys like Sandlin it will be even better.

The Leafs lost the series because their offensive guys couldn't deliver when needed, not because they were a defensive train wreck.

Agree completely, we had the edge in play, in scoring chances and were actually pretty solid defensively.

This is an inaccurate and biased representation. CBJ are NOT an offensive team their bread and butter is defense; they exploited toronto's defensive lapses to a T

I think it's very accurate and what makes you say it's biased? And he never said (or even implied) that CBJ is an offensive team, perhaps you should give his post another read.

 

[Pi]

you couldn’t be more wrong.

If Jones is in front of the net instead of Marincin, jackets don’t score that “soft” goal

That soft goal shouldn’t go in if I was standing there instead of Marincin and I am about a billion times worse than Marincin at hockey.

 

[ToneDog]

Well when do they let them play? Or do we keep Lilly and Sandin mostly in the minors until they are 25 and maybe ready?

Yes I am being a tad extreme but we draft players for a reason and these are not bad prospects.

Sandin has the best chance of making the team. The others will come up as needed when they are ready. No GM is going to throw them all 3 in with the thought he has nothing to lose. I would not be surprised if the Leafs do not sign a UFA RHD like Tanev or Demelo etc. so that leaves 1 less spot open.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Fingers crossed Dubas cannot bullshit his way into another year.

This will shock you but I think there is a chance Larry gives both teams to Masai ... and Masai keeps on Dubie as a junior study/transition to his own guy ... Shanny keeps his jap closed hardly ever talks in mtgs ... he may get bumped up to a advisory role because of $$$ and term he got on last deal ... but it is hard to say because with no $$$ coming in this past June for 2020/21 it changes a lot of thinking on numerous fronts. da team is just not loaded with cash right now. we are not da powerful money bags right now we normally would be at this point in time without COVID

 

[Antropovsky]

How much many more goals did we allow then the best teams? 40-50? How does a team that allows that many more goals then the best teams ever think they stand a chance in hell of winning the cup? Just because w we have the or one of the best offenses why does it mean we have to play an all-out offensive attack. If we were to play a defensive structure like other teams with less offensive ability aren't we still most likely to win games because our high-end top in players are more capable of scoring goals than others if we were playing the Islanders type defense wouldn't we stand a much better chance of winning then we do now the Islanders defense is atrocious on paper. I know it's easy to blame Anderson and I did not watch all of all the games but of the games I watched I thought Anderson made several big saves and generally had more odd-man rushes that he had to deal with how many 5 on 5 goals do the Leafs even score. If it wasn't for I'm your miraculous sequence of events where they pulled their goalie and scored three goals in 3 minutes and foligno took a stupid penalty in the overtime the Leafs may have been shut out three games out of five.

Personally i think the leafs looked worse this playoffs....than any year under babs, against by far their weakest playoff opponent. Be interesting to see how xolumbus proceeds from here. I hope they get dusted in 4 games.... really drive the point home to our players that they were not even close to gold enough this year and they should be embarrassed.

 

[DavePoulin4PM]

Leafs should trade for Tony Deangelo. I have never seen a player dominate the way he did for his brief stint under Keefe in SSM. DeAngelo is pretty much what the Leafs wanted Barrie to actually be, plus he is tough as nails.

 

[TopChedder]

We have a lọt to lose like a lọt of games. You are asking for a lot of trouble starting 3 unproven rookies on defence.

We lose every year man. I understand your point but at least if we try to play some younger talent and lose we could at least draft higher and maybe hit on a stud D. I think that is better than losing every year in the 1st round and drafting at a treadmill position (not that you can't still draft well)

Best case scenario out young D work through mistakes and run with it, improve.

 

[ToneDog]

This will shock you but I think there is a chance Larry gives both teams to Masai ... and Masai keeps on Dubie as a junior study/transition to his own guy ... Shanny keeps his jap closed hardly ever talks in mtgs ... he may get bumped up to a advisory role because of $$$ and term he got on last deal ... but it is hard to say because with no $$$ coming in this past June for 2020/21 it changes a lot of thinking on numerous fronts. da team is just not loaded with cash right now. we are not da powerful money bags right now we normally would be at this point in time without COVID

Yup I would be shocked.

 

[TopChedder]

Sandin has the best chance of making the team. The others will come up as needed when they are ready. No GM is going to throw them all 3 in with the thought he has nothing to lose. I would not be surprised if the Leafs do not sign a UFA RHD like Tanev or Demelo etc. so that leaves 1 less spot open.

I hope so. I would at least play Sandin and I like Lehtonen and think he can surprise.

 

[DavePoulin4PM]

Trade: Nylander + to Rangers for Tony Deangelo.

Sign either Brendan Dillon or Radko Gudas.

Defense: Rielly, Deangelo, Muzzin, Gudas, Dermott, Sandin. That is a solid back end IMO and realistic.

 

[PromisedLand]

I think it's very accurate and what makes you say it's biased? And he never said (or even implied) that CBJ is an offensive team, perhaps you should give his post another read.

Before he was given the "mod" status I've had plenty of debates with him; I know where he stands when it comes to dubas and analytics.

Lets look at the result from the entire season then -> do you recall pulling your hair out pre-covid when this team played in it's own zone? I do. This isn't just the CBJ series it has been like that for a while now.

CBJ series is just the tip of the ice-berg. Everytime we had the puck at the point in the offensive zone we were covered or the lanes were closed so shots were blocked;

Werenski, Jones, Savard they had free lanes taking shots from point; the first goal last night, for example, why the hell did Werenski have so much time and space to float a shot; we left the points open and played chicken in the D-zone.

Freddy had to cheat because he had absolutely ZERO faith in the team's defensive ability especially in their own zone; Korpisalo on the other hand only had to be aware of few lanes where he knew shots might come; other than that leafs were mostly kept to the outside.

CBJ is opportunistic they wait for you to make mistake and then pounce on it; and leafs make plenty of defensively boneheaded plays

 

[ToneDog]

I hope so. I would at least play Sandin and I like Lehtonen and think he can surprise.

I have no idea what Lehtonen is but I think he is a longshot. Hope I am wrong and he is closer to Salming than Rosen.

 

[TopChedder]

Legitimate top four defensemen on the Leafs:

Rielly (#1)
Muzzin (#2-#3)

That's it. That's all this team has. We've overrated the talent and potential of the rest of the defenders and we've witnessed so time and time again. Everyone else on defence is a #5 at best or shouldn't be in the NHL. Ceci and Barrie are obvious targets but Dermott and Holl weren't much better. Marincin didn't have one of his patented gaffes but he should not be near an NHL roster, even with injuries.

The Leafs couldn't score this series and lacked finish, but how many plays died when the puck ended up back at the blue line? Barrie was atrocious with the puck and Ceci made countless stupid passes. Dermott's and Holl's pinching instincts were awful as well. If the defence can't even be great offensively what good are they then?

Team needs to make big changes to the defence if they want to compete soon. If they don't we're going to see Sandin, Liljegren, and Lehtonen thrown to the wolves while over-relying on Dermott and Holl again and we'll lose.

I actually don't think Dermott or Holl played horrible. Yes some improvements needed in their games but overall I think they were ok in the series.

 

[Papi 4 Hart]

The team never fell apart defensively. They gave up 1.68 expected goals against/60 at 5v5 without Muzzin. Only the Flyers and Calgary were better

And what when Muzzin's gone? We have the worst defensive depth ever and it shows because we are eliminated and they aren't.

We gotta look at ourselves in the mirror here and can't just say "oh well with Muzzin in the line up on a full moon with exactly 30 degree weather we are the best team in the league defensively with a 5 v5 expected goal rate." How about we judge the team by WINS!

This is a terrible part of our fan culture that justifies bad performances and teams.

 

[TopChedder]

I have no idea what Lehtonen is but I think he is a longshot. Hope I am wrong and he is closer to Salming than Rosen.

I watched him a little (very little to be honest) in the KHL and he is solid. Now who knows if that translates, but he is quite talented. Many teams wanted him and some considered him to be one of the more complete Dmen outside the NHL.

 

[ToneDog]

Trade: Nylander + to Rangers for Tony Deangelo.

Sign either Brendan Dillon or Radko Gudas.

Defense: Rielly, Deangelo, Muzzin, Gudas, Dermott, Sandin. That is a solid back end IMO and realistic.

YOu believe Dubas would have add to Nylander to get AD ? I'd be afraid, very afraid to make that deal after blowing the Kadri deal.

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

The Leafs didnt lose the series because of the D, they lost the seires because they couldn't score on a cheap goaltending tandem.

The D needs major upgrades though - because it always has needed that. I expect that Rielly, Muzzin, Sandin, and Holl will be a part of the 6 man unit next year - hopefully Holl is on the 3rd pair with Sandin, but that means you need two top four options, which I don't think you're going to get.

Neither of Marner/Nylander are likely to be moved. You won't get great value for Nylander based on reputation despite being very good - and the quality of player that would need to be available to trade Marner for also isn't likely to be available.

Johnsson and Kapanen both probably go (keep Kerfoot because they need depth at C).

Run

Hyman - Matthews - Nylander
Mikheyev - Tavares - Marner
Robertson - Kerfoot - XXXXX
Spezza - Engvall - Barbanov/XXX/Joe Thornton (Spezza type deal)

Rielly - XXX (Brodie?)
Muzzin - Holl
Sandin - Lehtonen

The team needs some changes for sure - but I don't think its as dire as people are making it out to be. They got rolled by a Columbus goaltending duo.



If they win the lottery then its just hilarious and who cares