Maple Leafs GM Nonis refuses to sacrifice future for short-term fix

[Patience]

Do you understand a simple question? What has bozak done in his whole body of work to play on the leafs in a top6 role for 5 years?

22 games? thats your argument? great lol. small sample size doesn't mean squat.

What has Grabovski done in his "body of work" that makes him anything other than be at best a flawed borderline top 6 center? Talk about being content with mediocrity.

 

[Gallagbi]

Only problem is now you go after players that are best for what you have, rather than what is necessary.

No you don't. That would be a GM flaw, not a flaw with acquiring players "in the wrong order" like you're pretending.

 

[Semantics]

It is easily seen how much Kessel and JVR miss him when he is not in the lineup, and he is our present best Center.

Is that why Kessel has scored at the exact same pace in the 6 games since Bozak has been back (5 points) as in the prior 12 games where Bozak was out (10 points)?

 

[Semantics]

Patrice Bergeron was -28 one year too. Amazing body of work. You do understand it is one thing being -28 or -29 playing for an awful team, and another being -20 playing for a good team. Do you ever use logic?

Grabovski has never been worse than -10 in a regular season or playoffs. Look who's cherry picking stats now.

Bozak's career highs: 47 points, and -1, playing with Kessel.
Grabovski's career highs: 58/51/48 points, +14, playing with MacArthur and Kulemin.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Grabovski has never been worse than -10 in a regular season or playoffs. Look who's cherry picking stats now.

Bozak's career highs: 47 points, and -1, playing with Kessel.
Grabovski's career highs: 58/51/48 points, +14, playing with MacArthur and Kulemin.

I already addressed this. Question what is worse? -20 on playoff team or -29 on a terrible Ron Wilson Lottery team?

~Context trumps cherry picking?

 

[Mess]

Only problem is now you go after players that are best for what you have, rather than what is necessary.

You're also using up the best assets high picks & prospects that if traded should have been used on high priority positions and what is necessary for successful teams.

When you have a rebuild plan and don't prioritize you end up spending on secondary and not primary positions and then left asking where did it go wrong.

 

[Duke Silver]

LOL at lamenting a lack of context then using plus/minus as an argument.

 

[Gallagbi]

You're also using up the best assets high picks & prospects that if traded should have been used on high priority positions and what is necessary for successful teams.

When you have a rebuild plan and don't prioritize you end up spending on secondary and not primary positions and then left asking where did it go wrong.

When drafting, you're at the mercy of what is available and who is BPA. It's not like you can just pick a #1C or #1D off the draft tree. It needs to be the right year, the right time, the right player and you have to have the right draft slot.

 

[Gallagbi]

I already addressed this. Question what is worse? -20 on playoff team or -29 on a terrible Ron Wilson Lottery team?

~Context trumps cherry picking?

Wouldn't that logic suggest Grabovski is a good player because he managed to be a + player playing for an awful coach in Wilson?

 

[Semantics]

There is *nobody* on the core of this team that deserves to be defended. The forward group has been awful defensively and brutal on possession stats for four years now with Bozak as the pivot logging the most ice time. We need a different #1C, it's plainly obvious.

Bozak has not been good defensively, he's not done anything good for a dismal penalty kill unit, and his point total is obviously going to regress to the 45-50 point pace he achieves every season, while getting 1st line ES and PP minutes. Put him on a 2nd line with fewer minutes and worse linemates and obviously that point total would drop off substantially. So no, he's not a even good 2nd line center, for what it's worth. People need to stop calling him a 2nd line center based on point totals he's achieved getting 1st line minutes and linemates.

 

[Semantics]

I already addressed this. Question what is worse? -20 on playoff team or -29 on a terrible Ron Wilson Lottery team?

~Context trumps cherry picking?

The -29 was worse, because Grabovski was +14 on that same team. A difference of 43.

Last year Bozak was -1 and Grabovski was -10. A difference of only 9, and with Grabovski playing against the best scorers on the other team while Bozak got sheltered minutes.

And again with the cherry picking. Not once have I seen you acknowledge that Grabovski was used in a checking role (despite that not being his game), or that Bozak's stats might suffer if he was used in the same role. The lengths you go to with your lies to defend Bozak are mind boggling. There's some serious cognitive dissonance going on in your head. Are you really accusing *others* of cherry picking when they try to use a player's career stats, while you're citing 22 game samples?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

This year's team has been brutal. Worse than the Ron Wilson years. There is *nobody* on the core of this team that deserves to be defended. The forward group has been awful defensively and brutal on possession stats for four years now with Bozak as the pivot logging the most ice time. We need a different #1C, it's plainly obvious.

Bozak has not been good defensively, he's not done anything good for a dismal penalty kill unit, and his point total is obviously going to regress to the 45-50 point pace he achieves every season, while getting 1st line ES and PP minutes. Put him on a 2nd line with fewer minutes and worse linemates and obviously that point total would drop off substantially. So no, he's not a even good 2nd line center, for what it's worth. People need to stop calling him a 2nd line center based on point totals he's achieved getting 1st line minutes and linemates.

How is this team worse than the Wilson years?

How is Bozak bad defensively?

Bozak is currently second on the team on a PPG projection?

Put Bozak on the second line with Lupul and Clarkson he is sheltered away from the Chara's or Doughty's no?

Back up your opinions, blanket statements have no substance. What did Kadri do with Kessel and JVR save for one game against the Oilers a glorified OHL team? Remember the first game Bozak came back from IR? 3 points, Kessel and JVR back producing, a win? Remember the winter classic, who won that game? Do you recall the key face-offs?
Did Kadri do any of this when he was subbing?

I like to live my life by facts, not baseless opinions.

 

[yubbers]

That's crazy talk :p

 

[Bluelines]

Do you want to know what Bozak's +/- and points are in his total body of work?

he is

260 games, 152 points and is an amazing....wait for it.....-38

Strike 3

And outta here lol

Anyone who knows something about hockey knows +/- is a useless stat.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

The -29 was worse, because Grabovski was +14 on that same team. A difference of 43.

Last year Bozak was -1 and Grabovski was -10. A difference of only 9, and with Grabovski playing against the best scorers on the other team while Bozak got sheltered minutes.

KGM had one good year, Against 2nd pairings and while Kessel and his one way game at the time got all the defensive attention. What has Grabovksi done since then? What has KGM done in subsequent seasons?

Funny you bring this up, when you said in a post just above #84 only had line mates of Macarthur and Kulemin, and now you are praising them. The hypocrisy is funny.

Mac and Kule great line mates in 10-11, bad line mates when Grabovski needs excuses.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Anyone who knows something about hockey knows +/- is a useless stat.

Really, How so?

How many successful teams have bigger minuses than pluses?

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

He won't trade young, retainable players for veterans. Good

 

[Mess]

Really, How so?

How many successful teams have bigger minuses than pluses?

Here is a +/- stat.

If you add up Leafs defense +/- you get -30 combined and that ranks the Leafs near the bottom of the NHL. If you do the same for every other team you will see that all teams in the bottom 10 are all in none playoff positions.

Plus/minus can be a useful tool in identifying a team weakness.

 

[happyaccident]

The -29 was worse, because Grabovski was +14 on that same team. A difference of 43.

Last year Bozak was -1 and Grabovski was -10. A difference of only 9, and with Grabovski playing against the best scorers on the other team while Bozak got sheltered minutes.

And again with the cherry picking. Not once have I seen you acknowledge that Grabovski was used in a checking role (despite that not being his game), or that Bozak's stats might suffer if he was used in the same role. The lengths you go to with your lies to defend Bozak are mind boggling. There's some serious cognitive dissonance going on in your head. Are you really accusing *others* of cherry picking when they try to use a player's career stats, while you're citing 22 game samples?

This is perfect. For everybody that wants to cherrypick on 15 game sample sizes or players that are clearly being put in different roles by a fat moron of a coach. Both playing with skilled wingers, both getting equal opportunity from the coach. Put those stats on a plaque and smoke 'em.

Nonuts is ridiculous .. other than saying he would not trade a younger player for an older player everything he said was flat out wrong.

Time to fire Nonis and bring in Niuwendyk
Time to fire Carlyle and bring in Dougie

This is perfect. Nonuts to stand up to a coach who is not supposed to be doing your job for you. And it rhymes with donuts.

 

[Stephen]

I still don't miss Grabovski. It's like if we dumped Lupul and he continued to produce elsewhere. There's clearly something amiss with this group that decent production won't address. Grabovski is also on a one year deal so we probably wouldn't get that hungry player Washington is enjoying since he'd likely be another one of those long term, complacent Leafs we're all so familiar with by now.

 

[Semantics]

How is this team worse than the Wilson years?

Have you actually watched them in the past two months? They're 2nd last in possession stats behind only the worst offensive team in NHL history (I remind you that possession stats are a better predictor of future performance than any other known statistic). 6th last in regulation+overtime wins, on pace for fewer points than Wilson's last full season, and if they lose today they'll be on pace for fewer points than three of Wilson's four seasons. This team is bad, Bad, BAD, B.A.D.

You should check out the thread "What has changed in two years".

How is Bozak bad defensively?

He's average in the defensive zone coverage, below average at winning puck battles, and poor at cycling and keeping the puck in the offensive zone.

The Leafs spend more time in their own zone when Bozak is on the ice than when Kadri or Bolland is on the ice, although less than McClement. And Bozak is the 4th worst on the team for 5v5 goals allowed after Lupul, Holland, and Kadri.

The Leafs penalty kill, of which Bozak is a huge part, is 4th worst in the NHL. (It's been worse in the 6 games since Bozak returned from injury.)

Bozak is currently second on the team on a PPG projection?

Small sample size. That number will obviously regress.

Put Bozak on the second line with Lupul and Clarkson he is sheltered away from the Chara's or Doughty's no?

Would love to see that. It's a more appropriate spot in the lineup for him.

Back up your opinions, blanket statements have no substance. What did Kadri do with Kessel and JVR save for one game against the Oilers a glorified OHL team? Remember the first game Bozak came back from IR? 3 points, Kessel and JVR back producing, a win? Remember the winter classic, who won that game? Do you recall the key face-offs?

Did Kadri do any of this when he was subbing?

Why bring Kadri into this? Nobody's arguing here that Kadri is a 1st line center, or even that he's better than Bozak. That's a straw man.

And you're aware that Bozak played in one of our two games against the Oilers, right?

I like to live my life by facts, not baseless opinions.

About 5 different people on this thread alone have exposed you for your cherry picking, lack of context, straw man arguments, and outright lies. You have absolutely no ground to stand on when it comes to criticizing how others argue their opinions.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I still don't miss Grabovski. It's like if we dumped Lupul and he continued to produce elsewhere. There's clearly something amiss with this group that decent production won't address. Grabovski is also on a one year deal so we probably wouldn't get that hungry player Washington is enjoying since he'd likely be another one of those long term, complacent Leafs we're all so familiar with by now.

same with MacArthur. if these two produced NOW the same way they produced in the middle year/last year of their deal, I doubt we buy them out/let them walk. if in a few years these are still stellar, then we'll talk.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

Seldom did Grabovski look complacent.

Just to recap,

A minor scoring slump in a short season elevated Kadri to the #2 slot and our bigot coach didn't give Grabo another opportunity to regain his spot, not that he deserved it because Kadri was playing really well but that same bigot coach then forced our GMs hand to make a short-sighted move and ditch Grabo. Now, with Bozak and Bolland injured, as well as Kadri regressing, we're all seeing the effects of such a short-sighted move.

 

[Penalty Kill Icing*]

same with MacArthur. if these two produced NOW the same way they produced in the middle year/last year of their deal, I doubt we buy them out/let them walk. if in a few years these are still stellar, then we'll talk.

Carlyle now has a pretty long history of bad relationships with his players. Expect more and more Grabovski and MacArthur to emerge as time goes on.

Ryan, Lupul, Grabovski, MacArthur, Gardiner.... the list goes on.

Point is, until he changes his attitude, he'll continue to have players that won't be willing to play for him and hence don't produce. On Lupul's front, RC had no choice but to reset. No doubt in my mind that Burke would've talked about it when he hired Carlyle.

Nonis' bigger mistakes were he relied on stats from a 48 game season to decide on fate of players. If people are using a 48 game season argument to say Mac and Grabo weren't a right fit for this team, does that mean Clarkson should be bought out too because Leafs have played almost 48 games this season and he has played like a 4th liner. That is the major flaw in Dave Nonis and his loyal followers' logic.

Canucks fans were totally right about our GM. And MLSE has him on board for 5 more years (is it?).... Perfect!

 

[thewave]

same with MacArthur. if these two produced NOW the same way they produced in the middle year/last year of their deal, I doubt we buy them out/let them walk. if in a few years these are still stellar, then we'll talk.

They had a 50 game slump and were played wrong. You could put Lupul or Kessel in a 3rd line checking role and they would slump to. I guess you guys just like giving assets away for nothing.

Call me up in 5 years after you are on you 5th set third liners trying to figure out where the production is.