Mantha vs. Sam Reinhart

[Dirty Dog]

I’m merely commenting on the fact you said he didn’t play with Eichel. Reinhart actually has a better Corsi when playing with Olofsson (58.32 vs 50 without) and Risto has a relatively low impact in that it’s -1 on Reinhart’s Corsi. Reinhart actually played much better with Hall than without (64.77 together and 48.10 apart). I think it’s to be expected that a top 6 player is going to play with a team’s top players and that will have some effect on their underlying analytics especially when they’re considering a top 5/10 center in the world. A good way to squash this debate with that user would be to provide Reinhart’s analytics to compare to Mantha with and without Eichel as a linemate. It’s hard to argue with quantifiable data.

I don’t care enough to pull up advanced stats, and I am aware reinhart player with eichel before eichel got injured? I don’t know where I said otherwise.

I said since he stopped playing with eichel this season, and he has since produced well. That poster’s comment that reinhart can’t produce without it eichel is a myth that has been debunked a bunch. You can google and find multiple articles that explain it.

 

[Team Cozens]

Now that Sam is playing center, has 13 point in his last 10 games and 25 goals in the season.
Easily Sam for me.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Neutral fan going with Reinhart.

 

[BStinson]

I don’t care enough to pull up advanced stats, and I am aware reinhart player with eichel before eichel got injured? I don’t know where I said otherwise.

I said since he stopped playing with eichel this season, and he has since produced well. That poster’s comment that reinhart can’t produce without it eichel is a myth that has been debunked a bunch. You can google and find multiple articles that explain it.

When you bumped this thread, this was your second post “Reinhart has played most this year without eichel and has produced just as much.” I provided data to debunk this claim. You then claimed he drives his own line analytically but provided no analytics. I’ve also provided a source of the analytics this year to provide context to my claim while I haven’t seen any from you. Also, if you didn’t care enough why are you even bumping this thread?

 

[Dirty Dog]

When you bumped this thread, this was your second post “Reinhart has played most this year without eichel and has produced just as much.” I provided data to debunk this claim. You then claimed he drives his own line analytically but provided no analytics. I’ve also provided a source of the analytics this year to provide context to my claim while I haven’t seen any from you. Also, if you didn’t care enough why are you even bumping this thread?

you debunked the claim that eichel has produced as much without eichel and played most the year without him? Where did you say that? You’d be wrong. Sam reinhart has played more games without eichel than with eichel. With eichel, he had 17 points in 20 games. Without eichel, he has had 23 points in 30 games. So yes, my statement is objectively true and not debunked...



I don’t even know what your claim is, you seemingly misread one of my posts and wrote a side tangent on it


And when someone random (you) asks me to bring up advanced analytics to talk about (your) point...I can say no. I don’t care enough. I bumped the thread to circle back to a discussion someone annoyingly started before the season. If you want stats about him driving play, google it: Sam Reinhart: He's the solution, not the problem |

 

[BStinson]

you debunked the claim that eichel has produced as much without eichel and played most the year without him? Where did you say that? You’d be wrong. Sam reinhart has played more games without eichel than with eichel. With eichel, he had 17 points in 20 games. Without eichel, he has had 23 points in 30 games. So yes, my statement is objectively true and not debunked...



I don’t even know what your claim is, you seemingly misread one of my posts and wrote a side tangent on it


And when someone random (you) asks me to bring up advanced analytics to talk about (your) point...I can say no. I don’t care enough. I bumped the thread to circle back to a discussion someone annoyingly started before the season. If you want stats about him driving play, google it: Sam Reinhart: He's the solution, not the problem |

It may have been an initial misunderstanding of this portion I initially commented on “notice you’re argument about Mantha and reinhart is never who actually produces more. It’s that reinhart players with eichel (wrong)” which reads to me like Reinhart hasn’t played with Eichel this year. Which is why I responded with TOI w & w/out. You finally provided his stats with and without which is why I said bring it up in your defense to your statement as people can’t really argue with quantifiable data.

I brought up the CF with his linemates which you claimed were dog shit or awful to see impact which doesn’t support your claim. It also shows the impact both Eichel & Reinhart have together which I acknowledged as good players typically make other good players better. I asked for evidence as how he drives play because it was your statement and it’s well known that Mantha’s analytics show he’s a main play driver for his time in Detroit. The article you provided is over a year old and for 19-20 where Reinhart played over 90% of his ice time with Eichel and then try to use an isolate chart to compare ROR to Reinhart without any context, which is meaningless. I brought most of this up as, someone saying something without any supporting evidence doesn’t hold the same weight as someone that can provide some sort of quantifiable/qualitative evidence to support their claim.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It may have been an initial misunderstanding of this portion I initially commented on “notice you’re argument about Mantha and reinhart is never who actually produces more. It’s that reinhart players with eichel (wrong)” which reads to me like Reinhart hasn’t played with Eichel this year. Which is why I responded with TOI w & w/out. You finally provided his stats with and without which is why I said bring it up in your defense to your statement as people can’t really argue with quantifiable data.

I think everyone knows reinhart played some with eichel this year—his season was not shut down until March. Try to read better before typing a bunch of irrelevant stats like reinhart’s TOI with eichel.

And dude, I provided his stats without eichel long before you jumped into the converaation. I posted it again because you quoted me saying you debunked something and I was trying to track what in the world you’re talking about.

I brought up the CF with his linemates which you claimed were dog shit or awful to see impact which doesn’t support your claim. It also shows the impact both Eichel & Reinhart have together which I acknowledged as good players typically make other good players better. I asked for evidence as how he drives play because it was your statement and it’s well known that Mantha’s analytics show he’s a main play driver for his time in Detroit. The article you provided is over a year old and for 19-20 where Reinhart played over 90% of his ice time with Eichel and then try to use an isolate chart to compare ROR to Reinhart without any context, which is meaningless. I brought most of this up as, someone saying something without any supporting evidence doesn’t hold the same weight as someone that can provide some sort of quantifiable/qualitative evidence to support their claim.

you are trying to suck me into a very dumb argument that is not what I was saying. You jumped into something mid conversation and misread my post. Everyone knows good players benefit from playing with good players. Reinhart obviously benefits from eichel on his line. That is common sense. My ONLY point about that is that reinhart can produce without eichel. Try to follow along and debunk that...instead of debunking things literally no one said

And god you’re goofy. Yes that article is about last season, this season is not over with yet.

 

[BStinson]

I think everyone knows reinhart played some with eichel this year—his season was not shut down until March. Try to read better before typing a bunch of irrelevant stats like reinhart’s TOI with eichel.

And dude, I provided his stats without eichel long before you jumped into the converaation. I posted it again because you quoted me saying you debunked something and I was trying to track what in the world you’re talking about.



you are trying to suck me into a very dumb argument that is not what I was saying. You jumped into something mid conversation and misread my post. Everyone knows good players benefit from playing with good players. Reinhart obviously benefits from eichel on his line. That is common sense. My ONLY point about that is that reinhart can produce without eichel. Try to follow along and debunk that...instead of debunking things literally no one said

And god you’re goofy. Yes that article is about last season, this season is not over with yet.

Like I said, I misunderstood your statement as it doesn’t exactly read correctly. You also said his linemates were awful which I posted their respective Corsi/Fenwick which shows they’re not that bad.

So, we’re not using analytics of this year to prove a point this year? People write articles throughout the year and the season is 95% over so we have a large enough sample size to extrapolate a point. I’m not sure I’d label that as goofy but rather logical. Isolation charts from last year doesn’t show how Reinhart plays w/out Eichel since they played roughly ~95% together last year.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Like I said, I misunderstood your statement as it doesn’t exactly read correctly. You also said his linemates were awful which I posted their respective Corsi/Fenwick which shows they’re not that bad.

So, we’re not using analytics of this year to prove a point this year? People write articles throughout the year and the season is 95% over so we have a large enough sample size to extrapolate a point. I’m not sure I’d label that as goofy but rather logical. Isolation charts from last year doesn’t show how Reinhart plays w/out Eichel since they played roughly ~95% together last year.

I’ll explain this logically. What you did, is looked at pages of information, ignored all points, and found a sarcastic sentence and want to talk about advanced stats “debunking” that sarcastic statement. I’m a Sabres fan, I actually like those players. I wasn’t making a qualitative statement for someone with a (presumably) amateur understanding of stats to address.

That is odd internet behavior and I don’t really want to get sucked into it...more than I already have. But thanks for derailing the thread

this is one of the dumbest internet argument threads I have been a part of. I’ll take reinhart over Mantha based on past performance, and moving forward. His career up to this point has been significantly more productive. He is currently signicnatly out producing Mantha while playing center. And I don’t think the future will be any different.

have fun. If you make a dumb prove-it poll before the season, it may get bumped when you were objectively wrong at the end of the season

 

[Panthaz89]

If anything Reinhart's been neutered most of his career by being shoehorned into wing when he was clearly meant to be played at center just an incredibly smart player makes up for his lack of strengths by almost always being in the right place at the right time. I don't know why anyone is voting Mantha other than him being bigger in size......he isn't riding Eichel's coattails he has picked up more hat-tricks than Eichel and has been shown way before this season that he can produce without Eichel in the lineup or on a separate line. Seems pretty akin to Draisaitl getting bashed for playing with McDavid.