Management Thread

[Fatass]

"I had a good relationship with Trevor. We always worked together on things. He was my boss. He hired me as a GM and he extended my contract. I’m grateful to Trevor". ...Benning

Evidence from Linden?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Just my interpretation after reading all of the reports about that time period.

I think the Juolevi pick (which by all indications was 100% on Benning) is way more of a factor than some people are realizing.

It seems Linden & the scouts deferred to Benning for that Juolevi pick when it is likely the majority of people including scouts would have picked Matthew Tkachuk.

By the time it came down to finalize the draft board in 2017, Matthew Tkachuk had a very good rookie season while Juolevi did not. It was already obvious they made a mistake with that pick, though it was too early to tell how big. Because of this misstep by Benning, Linden gave a bigger voice to Brackett and the scouts this time around so the same mistake wouldn't happen again. It is likely those voices preferred Tkachuk the year before. Those scouts preferred EP while Benning preferred Glass as their 5th ranked prospect.

And yes I believe Benning was high on EP as well and the scouts probably liked Glass too. But the thing is, that doesn't really matter. When you are picking 5th and then not again for 30 picks it is little relevance who you have ranked between #6 and #20 other than if you are going to trade down or trade up. Who you have ranked in that top 5 and in what order is all that really matters.

Obviously there are some assumptions in there, but I think hat is the most obvious chain of events for those drafts.

Matthew Tkachuk said the Canucks had very little interest in him, and barely spoke to him...Go figure..(even though JB said very nice things about him on the radio)...I believe the Canucks really wanted PLD,who they thought would be available..Juolevi was next on their list.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Also, assuming both Linden and Benning telling the truth, I think the only way to reconcile the comments is the below interpretation:

1. Scouts chose Pettersson as their pick;
2. Benning wants to overrule them and pick someone else;
3. Linden steps in and overrules Benning to ensure the autonomy of the scouts so that they can make the pick; and
4. Benning accepts (begrudgingly or not) that the scouts should make the pick.l, and therefore, lists are adjusted and the pick is technically unanimous.

This is the only way I see it working and I don’t think it paints Benning in a good light. Ultimately, at step four, what is Jim really going to do other than accept Linden overruling him? Quit? In the end Benning won the larger battle and Linden left, but he lost this one. Also, without Linden stepping in, and if it was up to Jim, Pettersson isn’t picked which is kind of the crux of the issue. The fact that Benning conceded to Linden, and therefore, the pick was unanimous seems to be rather irrelevant to me given that the crux of the issue is whether Pettersson is drafted without Linden’s intervention.

1.yes
2.Other players were discussed..as it should be
3.Linden steps in, gave the scouts a voice (explains how in the radio interview)
4.Benning agrees..accepts.

I dont have the transcription of the radio interview..you can believe it or not..Linden said after Pettersson flew into Van ,and met ownership and management that 'he was absolutely their guy, and there was no consideration for anybody else'.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Matthew Tkachuk said the Canucks had very little interest in him, and barely spoke to him...Go figure..(even though JB said very nice things about him on the radio)...I believe the Canucks really wanted PLD,who they thought would be available..Juolevi was next on their list.

I think you’re right. If I recall correctly, Benning went on the radio before the draft that year and talked about how the Canucks hadn’t drafted a dman in a really long time and needed to stock the cupboards back there (Benning on taking Juolevi 5th overall: ‘we couldn’t go by him’). It was a mixture of BPA and organizational need at the time. Benning also alluded to all of their guys already having been drafted.

It’s too bad about Tkachuk......I hate to admit this, but he’s one of my favorite players in the NHL. As much as I defend Benning on here, Juolevi was clearly a Benning lead pick.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Can you address my and MS’ comments. Also, why would we give more weight to an Ed Willis quote than words from Linden himself.

I don’t have a dog in this fight per se, but the about face on this board about Linden’s honesty has given me whiplash. The amount of times he was referred to as a liar or a dishonest person while he was in his role as President was staggering to see and disheartening to witness. The fact that his word is now being held up in defense of the truth is equal parts ironic, amusing, and long overdue. I don’t think Linden was a particularly great executive, but the backlash he received particularly on this forum was tough to watch.

(note that I’m not saying you, Hodgy, were guilty of any of this per se - just an observation)

 

[Bleach Clean]

Can you address my and MS’ comments. Also, why would we give more weight to an Ed Willis quote than words from Linden himself.

Forget even that. Why are we relying on Benning’s version of events? Of course he’s going to say it was unanimous. He doesn’t want to look like he doesn’t know how to draft. This is base level stuff by POM.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I don’t have a dog in this fight per se, but the about face on this board about Linden’s honesty has given me whiplash. The amount of times he was referred to as a liar or a dishonest person while he was in his role as President was staggering to see and disheartening to witness. The fact that his word is now being held up in defense of the truth is equal parts ironic, amusing, and long overdue. I don’t think Linden was a particularly great executive, but the backlash he received particularly on this forum was tough to watch.

(note that I’m not saying you, Hodgy, were guilty of any of this per se - just an observation)

I think Linden is being relied upon as someone who had direct access over hockey ops, and not necessarily someone that is regarded as a paragon of virtue.

Normally, it would sound like sour grapes to completely divorce Benning and Weisbrod from spearheading the Pettersson pick in an interview 2 years after being fired. However, Linden makes similar comments to this effect while he was still employed, so things align here. He’s being consistent then and now.

One thing I will say: No matter how I had felt about his management abilities, I appreciate his open disdain for people he feels were disloyal to him. You can tell he hates Benning, even though Benning remains in the guise of someone who is not political or devious. Linden’s emotion tells us otherwise.

 

[sting101]

"A narrative has since emerged that suggests the hockey department was divided on Pettersson. Brackett was in favour of taking the Swede. Benning was leaning toward Glass.
Benning rejects that version of events and while he isn’t exactly expansive on the subject, he said: “(Pettersson) was a unanimous decision.”..Ed Willes..Province

Linden saying he gave "autonomy" doesn't have much value.

Maybe he had to just clear the waters of what Aquilini wanted what Weisbrod wanted what Crawford wanted what Benning wanted what Smyl Henning and Ryan Johnson wanted and any other various opinions regarding Glass including his own (yes it's possible that Linden wanted Glass or needed convincing of the skinny frail looking Petey being a cornerstone unless i missed something)

At some point the argument needed clarity and Linden said.... look everyone Judd, Ron and Thomas etc have watched these guys collectively 200 times it's best we give them the autonomy to make the rankings affecting our pick at 5...... So what?

It's a process that happens in almost all boardrooms regarding the draft

Like big friggen deal? All you have established (if you could prove it without a doubt) it's just Benning and Weisbrod is that they had the same view as Vegas and at least half the posters on these boards if that's the case.

That it means about as much as Arizona and Chayka are idiots for Strome over Marner. That Carolina are idiots for Hanifin over Werenski. That NJ are idiots for Zacha over Rantanen. That at least half the teams selecting before MacAvoy in 2016 are idiots. That NJ and Philly are idiots for passing on Pettersson, that half the teams picking before Detroit at 15 in 2014 were idiots for not taking Larkin. That Yzerman and TB are idiots for locking on Drouin when Seth Jones fell which would have gave them the best defensive duo in the modern era. etc etc

I'm not gonna read back 20 plus pages but what evidence is there to refute that maybe Linden Weisbrod and Aquilini were extremely reluctant to take such a thin frail looking kid to be the #1C beside Horvat for the contender they were trying to build....maybe "speed and skill" Benning was on the fence and the Scouts preferred Petey to which Linden gave Brackett autonomy and himself credit in the interview for empowering Judd and the staff to make the great selection? Am i totally in left field here? Can anyone say convincingly?

I'm just not seeing why the Lynch mob are making such a big deal trying to strip any reward or credibility to Benning when its clear that ownership would be privy to all the info and would want the people most capable of making their team a contender going forward. If he was as bad at the things you seem to speculate on and find him responsible for how is it ownership would just keep blindly moving forward with it?

As far as Brackett he was appointed his position mostly by Benning obviously (Trevor would know jack shit about scouting) who essentially made him the man with his promotion and using his scouting guidelines. Then Judd uses his newfound success to try to back off Benning and asks for control when the axe ultimately falls on Bennings head with failure? Might work for Linden but Jimbo isn't gonna let that happen and as unfair as that may seem Benning would have to weigh that value and has decided to let as someone pointed out....the star player walk via free agency. Tough loss but Burke once said 2 hands on the wheel and most GM's (that can) abide by it. Things changed with Trevor gone.

It's common for a rising star to push for more control than they have and good for Brackett to seek a more tenable operating environment. There is little evidence to suggest our drafting has taken a big hit with Judd's departure without knowing how and with who he will be replaced by, time will reveal that possibly. It's likely Brackett will make the situation look really good for him and bad for Benning/Weisbrod if he can land with a team in a rebuild and get another crack at building with high selections. Something Jim wont get going forward here. I bet Benning wishes he wasn't losing Brackett but giving away power is never an easy thing especially when it will effect your sustainable employment and the things you enjoy the most and pride yourself in.

It's really too bad the way our front office has been structured since the Gillis firing. Meddling owner, clueless President, An unpolished scout as GM, too many friends and family hired to the group pushing too many outdated agendas. It's definitely been a mess and it's never perfect anywhere but Francesco certainly didn't do himself any favors by hiring people that you want to be among the best in their professional title and were hardly brilliant and were devout of reputable experience.

Should be interesting going forward. I really like a lot about this current group/team. I only hope that there is very little patience left for mistakes.

 

[m9]

Matthew Tkachuk said the Canucks had very little interest in him, and barely spoke to him...Go figure..(even though JB said very nice things about him on the radio)...I believe the Canucks really wanted PLD,who they thought would be available..Juolevi was next on their list.

Yes, which makes sense given reports that Benning had locked into Juolevi very early in the process dating back to the WJC. It appears Benning was given full autonomy with that pick and when it worked out so poorly and it caused Linden to adjust the process leading up to the 2017 draft.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Linden saying he gave "autonomy" doesn't have much value.

Maybe he had to just clear the waters of what Aquilini wanted what Weisbrod wanted what Crawford wanted what Benning wanted what Smyl Henning and Ryan Johnson wanted and any other various opinions regarding Glass including his own (yes it's possible that Linden wanted Glass or needed convincing of the skinny frail looking Petey being a cornerstone unless i missed something)

At some point the argument needed clarity and Linden said.... look everyone Judd, Ron and Thomas etc have watched these guys collectively 200 times it's best we give them the autonomy to make the rankings affecting our pick at 5...... So what?

It's a process that happens in almost all boardrooms regarding the draft

Like big friggen deal? All you have established (if you could prove it without a doubt) it's just Benning and Weisbrod is that they had the same view as Vegas and at least half the posters on these boards if that's the case.

That it means about as much as Arizona and Chayka are idiots for Strome over Marner. That Carolina are idiots for Hanifin over Werenski. That NJ are idiots for Zacha over Rantanen. That at least half the teams selecting before MacAvoy in 2016 are idiots. That NJ and Philly are idiots for passing on Pettersson, that half the teams picking before Detroit at 15 in 2014 were idiots for not taking Larkin. That Yzerman and TB are idiots for locking on Drouin when Seth Jones fell which would have gave them the best defensive duo in the modern era. etc etc

I'm not gonna read back 20 plus pages but what evidence is there to refute that maybe Linden Weisbrod and Aquilini were extremely reluctant to take such a thin frail looking kid to be the #1C beside Horvat for the contender they were trying to build....maybe "speed and skill" Benning was on the fence and the Scouts preferred Petey to which Linden gave Brackett autonomy and himself credit in the interview for empowering Judd and the staff to make the great selection? Am i totally in left field here? Can anyone say convincingly?

I'm just not seeing why the Lynch mob are making such a big deal trying to strip any reward or credibility to Benning when its clear that ownership would be privy to all the info and would want the people most capable of making their team a contender going forward. If he was as bad at the things you seem to speculate on and find him responsible for how is it ownership would just keep blindly moving forward with it?

As far as Brackett he was appointed his position mostly by Benning obviously (Trevor would know jack shit about scouting) who essentially made him the man with his promotion and using his scouting guidelines. Then Judd uses his newfound success to try to back off Benning and asks for control when the axe ultimately falls on Bennings head with failure? Might work for Linden but Jimbo isn't gonna let that happen and as unfair as that may seem Benning would have to weigh that value and has decided to let as someone pointed out....the star player walk via free agency. Tough loss but Burke once said 2 hands on the wheel and most GM's (that can) abide by it. Things changed with Trevor gone.

It's common for a rising star to push for more control than they have and good for Brackett to seek a more tenable operating environment. There is little evidence to suggest our drafting has taken a big hit with Judd's departure without knowing how and with who he will be replaced by, time will reveal that possibly. It's likely Brackett will make the situation look really good for him and bad for Benning/Weisbrod if he can land with a team in a rebuild and get another crack at building with high selections. Something Jim wont get going forward here. I bet Benning wishes he wasn't losing Brackett but giving away power is never an easy thing especially when it will effect your sustainable employment and the things you enjoy the most and pride yourself in.

It's really too bad the way our front office has been structured since the Gillis firing. Meddling owner, clueless President, An unpolished scout as GM, too many friends and family hired to the group pushing too many outdated agendas. It's definitely been a mess and it's never perfect anywhere but Francesco certainly didn't do himself any favors by hiring people that you want to be among the best in their professional title and were hardly brilliant and were devout of reputable experience.

Should be interesting going forward. I really like a lot about this current group/team. I only hope that there is very little patience left for mistakes.

Thank you for giving 'clarity' to the issue...All scouting meetings have varying degrees of argument..The lynch mob have seized on this one, and are ramming 'overruled' down everybody throats where Linden made no indication of that .

Also,to your point of EP being a risky pick...

“No one gets fired for taking the consensus picks at No. 1 or 2.
“Even if they get the rankings right, often they need to have the balls to go against the herd and take the player.”
In other words, Elias Pettersson dropped because teams ahead of the Canucks didn’t have the balls to draft him.
“That’s the Pettersson story for me.”...Botchford,Athletic..2018

 

[Fatass]

Thank you for giving 'clarity' to the issue...All scouting meetings have varying degrees of argument..The lynch mob have seized on this one, and are ramming 'overruled' down everybody throats where Linden made no indication of that .

I like Benning. He seems like a genuinely nice person. And certainly I don’t want to “Lynch” anyone, and find that term offside.
I just think JB is a terrible GM, and believe our team would be better without him. Look how the Oilers turned their franchise a 180 after getting Holland. He hires a great coach in Tippet, and their team is way better.
IMO Benning/Wisebrod need to go, and Green too. I think, with Petey and Hughes, our next decade could be great with the right management and coach.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Matthew Tkachuk said the Canucks had very little interest in him, and barely spoke to him...Go figure..(even though JB said very nice things about him on the radio)...I believe the Canucks really wanted PLD,who they thought would be available..Juolevi was next on their list.

Another plausible theory: Benning and Weisbrod were going to pick who they wanted. If it was PLD or Juolevi, the scouting staff did not get the chance to interject like they did in 2017. That’s why interest for Tkachuk would be minimal throughout the year.

Why show interest when you know the GM and AGM get to decide, and they want someone else?

 

[Jay Cee]

I don’t have a dog in this fight per se, but the about face on this board about Linden’s honesty has given me whiplash. The amount of times he was referred to as a liar or a dishonest person while he was in his role as President was staggering to see and disheartening to witness. The fact that his word is now being held up in defense of the truth is equal parts ironic, amusing, and long overdue. I don’t think Linden was a particularly great executive, but the backlash he received particularly on this forum was tough to watch.

(note that I’m not saying you, Hodgy, were guilty of any of this per se - just an observation)

Most people aren't saying it in retrospect though, they said it at the time and OMG dont @ME about who drafted whom. Linden was a greasy as President, like a used car salesman. He had lame excuses and cop outs for management decisions his entire tenure and was completely unconvincing. He rode his stardom through 2 off seasons where he had his nice shirts and whispered sweet nothings to the fans and became shocked how many people weren't buying it over time. I have never had such respect for a pro athlete to have him fall so far. Such a huge disappointment.

 

[MadaCanuckle]

IN YOUR OPINION he is the wrong man, do the vast majority he is doing a good job. Show me ONE GM who has not made mistakes and want a couple do overs.

Wait I already know the response and please pick the appropriate number when responding as it will save time:

1 - JB has made more mistakes than other GM
2 - No one likes JB
3 - JB cannot draft
4 - JB cannot properly negotiate a contract and always over pays
5 - other please feel free to provide your own response here

Anyway you have your thoughts and rest have ours, just the majority of us here are tired of watching so many threads get taken down a I hate JB tunnel.

I am done with responding but will just say stay safe, be calm and remember to be nice!

In the majority of the opinions of people who know about hockey, they gave him poor grades.
About the GM's, do you want names with the same number of blatant mistakes Benning has done during his tenure, or less mistakes? Because i can name 29 to 30 GM's that made way less mistakes than Benning during a tenure with the same length. And it's a fact. 4 is also a fact, and that you show no acknowledge of that shows to me that you don't cheer for the Canucks , you cheer for a management group. And by the way, the people who like JB are the GM's who trade with him. They almost always get the better end of any trade.

Majority? What majority? Even in the media affiliated with the Canucks, the way the Brackett situation was handled was met with criticism. Friedman, Shah, MacIntyre, ... please, don't try to make other stupid. You look like it doing so.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Most people aren't saying it in retrospect though, they said it at the time and OMG dont @ME about who drafted whom. Linden was a greasy as President, like a used car salesman. He had lame excuses and cop outs for management decisions his entire tenure and was completely unconvincing. He rode his stardom through 2 off seasons where he had his nice shirts and whispered sweet nothings to the fans and became shocked how many people weren't buying it over time. I have never had such respect for a pro athlete to have him fall so far. Such a huge disappointment.

I don’t know what anyone expected? No GM or President is either 100% truthful or 100% transparent when talking to the media and the fans. The very nature of their jobs requires some confidentiality and secrecy - so it always felt pretty lame to me to see people putting him on blast for being dishonest, or calling him “Linden the Liar”. And to see some of those same people holding up his account of events now to vindicate their criticisms of Benning, as if they had never said these things about Linden, makes me shake my head.

Again, I’m not defending Benning. But I think Linden got an extremely rough ride from this site specifically during his tenure as President, and was subjected to some pretty unfairly extreme criticism. I’m happy to see him being taken at his word again, even if some of the people doing so clearly have an agenda for it.

 

[Fatass]

Another plausible theory: Benning and Weisbrod were going to pick who they wanted. If it was PLD or Juolevi, the scouting staff did not get the chance to interject like they did in 2017. That’s why interest for Tkachuk would be minimal throughout the year.

Why show interest when you know the GM and AGM get to decide, and they want someone else?

True, but isn’t the purpose of cross-over scouts to get eyes on players other scouts promote? How can a good cross-over scout not notice how good Tkatchuk is, when watching Juolevi?

 

[xtra]

I don’t know what anyone expected? No GM or President is either 100% truthful or 100% transparent when talking to the media and the fans. The very nature of their jobs requires some confidentiality and secrecy - so it always felt pretty lame to me to see people putting him on blast for being dishonest, or calling him “Linden the Liar”. And to see some of those same people holding up his account of events now to vindicate their criticisms of Benning, as if they had never said these things about Linden, makes me shake my head.

Again, I’m not defending Benning. But I think Linden got an extremely rough ride from this site specifically during his tenure as President, and was subjected to some pretty unfairly extreme criticism. I’m happy to see him being taken at his word again, even if some of the people doing so clearly have an agenda for it.

even if we expect him to lie (which anyone with common sense would expect )how is calling his bad lies out and calling him a liar something unfair.

I’m certain you have called a goalie terrible after a bad goal even though you expect them to let in a goal Or two so how is it different.


calling out a lie (or a bad goal) isn’t giving someone u fair treatment at all.

 

[Hit the post]

Most people aren't saying it in retrospect though, they said it at the time and OMG dont @ME about who drafted whom. Linden was a greasy as President, like a used car salesman. He had lame excuses and cop outs for management decisions his entire tenure and was completely unconvincing. He rode his stardom through 2 off seasons where he had his nice shirts and whispered sweet nothings to the fans and became shocked how many people weren't buying it over time. I have never had such respect for a pro athlete to have him fall so far. Such a huge disappointment.

I just think Linden was in way over his head. Should've NEVER been hired as President in the first place. But what done is done. I'll continue to cut ALOT of slack with respect to Linden based on what he gave to the organization as a player. Benning? Another guy who was in way over his head when he was hired. Strictly 'assistant GM' material (like Dave Nonis). That was the problem with the organization. Too many rookies and no veteran oversight. Throw in Willie D as the third member of the clueless Triumvirate.

Jim Benning..

Silvio Dante: "Some people are meant to be number two"

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

even if we expect him to lie (which anyone with common sense would expect )how is calling his bad lies out and calling him a liar something unfair.

I’m certain you have called a goalie terrible after a bad goal even though you expect them to let in a goal Or two so how is it different.


calling out a lie (or a bad goal) isn’t giving someone u fair treatment at all.

Because by that same criteria, every GM / President / Hockey executive should be subject to the same verbal lashing.

 

[Jay Cee]

I don’t know what anyone expected? No GM or President is either 100% truthful or 100% transparent when talking to the media and the fans. The very nature of their jobs requires some confidentiality and secrecy - so it always felt pretty lame to me to see people putting him on blast for being dishonest, or calling him “Linden the Liar”. And to see some of those same people holding up his account of events now to vindicate their criticisms of Benning, as if they had never said these things about Linden, makes me shake my head.

Again, I’m not defending Benning. But I think Linden got an extremely rough ride from this site specifically during his tenure as President, and was subjected to some pretty unfairly extreme criticism. I’m happy to see him being taken at his word again, even if some of the people doing so clearly have an agenda for it.

Some of us are just disappointed, given the player and legacy as an all time great. To me I don't emphasize he is a liar per se anyway. He was just greasy and didn't explain with any confidence what the team was doing. I also dont have much faith he did much of anything for the team as President. He was the PR guy IMO.

 

[Jay Cee]

I just think Linden was in way over his head. Should've NEVER been hired as President in the first place. But what done is done. I'll continue to cut ALOT of slack with respect to Linden based on what he gave to the organization as a player. Benning? Another guy who was in way over his head when he was hired. Strictly 'assistant GM' material (like Dave Nonis). That was the problem with the organization. Too many rookies and no veteran oversight. Throw in Willie D as the third member of the clueless Triumvirate.

Jim Benning..

Silvio Dante: "Some people are meant to be number two"

Lol. I am not nostalgic about Benning the hockey player believe me.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Some of us are just disappointed, given the player and legacy as an all time great. To me I don't emphasize he is a liar per se anyway. He was just greasy and didn't explain with any confidence what the team was doing. I also dont have much faith he did much of anything for the team as President. He was the PR guy IMO.

I can totally understand calling him a PR guy and saying he did little for the team. Both are valid points. I just never understood calling him a liar or, as you say, greasy.

 

[Jay Cee]

I can totally understand calling him a PR guy and saying he did little for the team. Both are valid points. I just never understood calling him a liar or, as you say, greasy.

Greasy is half truths more than lies.

 

[MS]

OK, we're making some progress here.

You admit that Linden 'intervened' on behalf of Brackett against the Benning faction who wanted Glass.

But then you jump to the conclusion that Benning … changed his mind and then totally backed the pick? What is your evidence of this?

If Benning changed his mind and was now siding with Brackett and backing the pick … why would Linden have to 'give autonomy' to Brackett?

And regardless of any of that, if Linden had to 'intervene' in favour of Brackett (whether Benning was 'overruled' or not), what happens if Linden did not intervene? Which player did Benning want, and which player would we have selected?

*crickets*

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

*crickets*

When the 'narrative pushing' terminology of 'overruled' is used...yes..*crickets*