Management Thread III (MOD Warning Post # 67)

[Melvin]

It’s like he’s just now grasping stuff we’ve been talking about here as fact, as fans, for like 20 years.

That's, yeah. That's the most mind blowing thing. I remember figuring this out when I was 11

 

[MS]

That's, yeah. That's the most mind blowing thing. I remember figuring this out when I was 11

I was maybe 13 when I realized that the guys who score points move up levels and the guys drafted as grinders from the CHL never amounted to anything.

It’s f***ing insane that to people running NHL clubs in 2019 this is some sort of big realization.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Was there a management group you liked through and through? You called for Gillis to be fired.

And in the end he deserved to be fired. I guess when the team has never won a Stanley Cup, and my standard is to see this team win a Stanley Cup, you can argue that no I haven’t been happy with any one management regime through and through. Neither should you or anyone for that matter.

 

[sting101]

(Moved this from Around the League)

----------------

Re: the Boeser situation

Slowly, teams have seem to become more and more willing to pay their young stars earlier over the past few years. This aligns with a trend where young players (especially forwards) are generally at their most productive in their early 20's and tend to peak around age 25.

Teams are realizing now that you can't overpay aging UFA's anymore based on past production and the UFA market this summer reflects that. Hence cap space has been reallocated to players coming off their ELC's while mid-level free agents are taking a cut.

A smart hockey ops would recognize this and be able to adjust by focusing on paying their young stars and taking advantage of the buyer's market in UFA by filling out their depth with cheap free agent contracts.

Unfortunately Benning has not caught on to this, and thus has been overspending on at-best mediocre to at-worst poor free agent contracts like it's 2009. This is just another example of him not wisening up to league trends and being able to adapt/adjust. You think having Gilman around or employing data science wouldn't have helped recognize patterns like these?

Yes Gillman is sure helping the Leafs right now. Lol
Is this developing pattern looking like a succesful one come playoffs?

 

[sting101]

I’d like to point out once again that our core does not have enough elite talent to be a contender.

Pettersson, Boeser, Horvat and Hughes is a fine starting place but we need more elite talent to join them if we expect them to contend in their primes.

But if we’re already up against the the cap, how exactly are we supposed to do that?

We can’t even afford to pay our core as it is, how could we add additional talent and pay them too?

We’ll be lucky if we can afford Pettersson’s extension when it comes.

Feels like we’re destined to toil in mediocrity with a core that even in their primes, won’t be Cup contenders, with no meaningful way to add elite talent to the core.

Yes hopefully we can squeeze Pettersson and Hughes in with the 50-55 million we will have?

 

[sting101]

Why on earth do they keep screwing Horvat around on this Captaincy stuff?

What happened?

 

[sting101]

My bet - if they plan on announcing a captain this year - is that they do it as part of the opening ceremonies at the first home game, similar to how Henrik was named Captain. Maybe they’ll even have someone like Kurtenbach, Smyl, Naslund or Sedin present it to him (think we can safely say Linden won’t be around for the 50th anniversary celebrations, which blows...)

I'm hearing Henrik

 

[Askel]

Yes Gillman is sure helping the Leafs right now. Lol
Is this developing pattern looking like a succesful one come playoffs?

Gilman and Toronto is manipulating the cap (94million payroll on a 81 million cap), and they managed to sign all their elite young players.. So yes he is still doing his job.

 

[F A N]

That's, yeah. That's the most mind blowing thing. I remember figuring this out when I was 11

I was maybe 13 when I realized that the guys who score points move up levels and the guys drafted as grinders from the CHL never amounted to anything.

Did this coincide with puberty or are you guys reading from your own autobiography? Must be some big moment in life. I say this cause years tend to get blurred as you age.

 

[F A N]

And in the end he deserved to be fired. I guess when the team has never won a Stanley Cup, and my standard is to see this team win a Stanley Cup, you can argue that no I haven’t been happy with any one management regime through and through. Neither should you or anyone for that matter.

That's why I distinguish between "deserved to be fired" and wanting to give someone more time to turn things around.

 

[vanuck]

Yes Gillman is sure helping the Leafs right now. Lol
Is this developing pattern looking like a succesful one come playoffs?

Are you denying his track record with cap management when he was here?

You're aware that Gilman doesn't handle contracts for the Leafs anymore right?

 

[sting101]

Gilman and Toronto is manipulating the cap (94million payroll on a 81 million cap), and they managed to sign all their elite young players.. So yes he is still doing his job.

Yes well done. Only cost them 50% o their cap a 1st and Connor Brown with more to come in Barrie/Muzzin. And they have to manage 2 LTIR deals all season long. Would make more sense if they got past the 1st round at least.

The extra 2-3% they have paid above market when they needed to get 2-3% below to keep the team competitive has huge negative implications and its kinda sad knowing that Matthews and Marner got 5 UFA yrs pulled back/saved as well. Marner should have been 8,5-9 and Matthews 9-9.5
Canuck fans will be really happy when Pettersson wants 5 or 6 at 12 million because of this coming out of his ELC.
Im not saying they didnt deserve to get paid because sure get what you can. But know that as the balance goes heavier to the PP guys it will cost heavily in other areas. The Hawks were prime examples. Build a great nucleus ad then watch it crumble. And that was with Hossa Toews Kane at significantly lower percentages at the same ages.
The Leafs are not helping anyone except young star players.

 

[sting101]

Are you denying his track record with cap management when he was here?

You're aware that Gilman doesn't handle contracts for the Leafs anymore right?

Fair...my bad he's managing the Marlies. Makes sense considering what a idiot Dubas is turning into re. Cap allocation and RFA control.

Honestly it looks good on the Leafs. Burke is probably right about Matthews. I just hate to see hockey evolve like Basketball in terms of star power. Its too much of a team game to expect the 6 to 15 guys in the lineup to keep taking hair cuts for stars who get paid for PP points. Its different dynamics and was a talking point when all these type of teams were out early in last years playoffs.
We'll see how it goes

 

[tantalum]

If Pettersson is a top 15 scorer he’s going to get paid no matter what.

Marner, Matthews and Tavares are all top 25 players. They are all going to be paid like it. Gone are the days of not paying young players just because they are young. Top players will get top money no matter their age under this market. As a result teams will have to figure out how to balance the talent they have and how they deal with the roster filler. You are likely going to see more teams with a half dozen players taking up the majority of cap followed by a bunch of cheap players. They will have to be astute in who they move out and when.

 

[MS]

Did this coincide with puberty or are you guys reading from your own autobiography? Must be some big moment in life. I say this cause years tend to get blurred as you age.

Not sure what the point of this snarky dick post is.

Yes, I remember being very young in the mid-90s and being upset about picks like Robert Longpre because I knew enough in my early teens to know that a CHL forward who scored 2 goals wasn’t going to make the NHL, ever, and that the guys who made the NHL as late picks were Robitailles and Fleurys and Hulls who scored tons of points but were small or slow. It wasn’t rocket science, or shouldn’t have been.

And it’s absolutely embarrassing that NHL executives are just now figuring out in 2019 stuff that junior-high kids could realize over two decades ago just by amateurishly looking at draft trends.

 

[I in the Eye]

I think Weisbrod is trying to justify the character formula he invented... to determine who will make it, and who will not... when he should just have faith in the potato. Psychology should be a distant secondary consideration to number crunching in the drafting game.

 

[timw33]

Yes hopefully we can squeeze Pettersson and Hughes in with the 50-55 million we will have?

Ah yes that's right we won't be signing a single player between now and the offseason they become RFAs.

 

[Hit the post]

I think Weisbrod is trying to justify the character formula he invented... to determine who will make it, and who will not... when he should just have faith in the potato. Psychology should be a distant secondary consideration to number crunching in the drafting game.

Dr Weisbrod; speciality of quack medicine.

 

[4Twenty]

Fair...my bad he's managing the Marlies. Makes sense considering what a idiot Dubas is turning into re. Cap allocation and RFA control.

Honestly it looks good on the Leafs. Burke is probably right about Matthews. I just hate to see hockey evolve like Basketball in terms of star power. Its too much of a team game to expect the 6 to 15 guys in the lineup to keep taking hair cuts for stars who get paid for PP points. Its different dynamics and was a talking point when all these type of teams were out early in last years playoffs.
We'll see how it goes

The stars are the ones driving the revenue in the NHL and the NBA. The bottom of the rosters make very good money in both league. In the NHL the cap is quite small between the elite and the average comparatively.

Those guys aren’t “taking haircuts” on most teams. It comes down to budgeting. I’d rather pay $10m for 90-100 points than pay $7m for 55-60.

This whole notion that these scoring players that are getting big pay days are just PP players come off as bitter, petty and ill informed.

The Three leafs making over $10m are all top 30 in EV points and Marner is the 15th best even strength producer in the entire league. These guys aren’t PP specialists they’re the elite players in the league. Seems weird to whine that their getting paid their market share earlier when their play actually warrants it. It’s like a backwards excuse for Jim Benning filling up his roster from the bottom up.

 

[y2kcanucks]

That's why I distinguish between "deserved to be fired" and wanting to give someone more time to turn things around.

It’s been half a decade. This is arguably the worst this franchise has been in it’s history. Missing the playoffs this year would set a franchise record playoff drought. Why does management deserve more time when everything they have done has been a failure?

And now with talks that the NHL could freeze the salary cap for the next two years to lower players escrow payments, it’ll be hilarious when they can’t re-sign Stecher, Markstrom, Hughes and/or Pettersson. All because that GM you’re defending decided to overpay too many crappy depth players.

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

it’ll be hilarious when they can’t re-sign Stecher, Markstrom, Hughes and/or Pettersson

Just imagine trying to sign Eriksson and Hughes the same summer while simultaneously chasing unrestricted free agents. I'm already looking forward to that

 

[y2kcanucks]

Just imagine trying to sign Eriksson and Hughes the same summer while simultaneously chasing unrestricted free agents. I'm already looking forward to that

The team is capped out and still isn’t a playoff caliber team. How anyone can defend this incompetent fool is beyond me. I vehemently believe it’s because people don’t understand how the draft works and are just enamored by good young players.

 

[megatron]

The team is capped out and still isn’t a playoff caliber team. How anyone can defend this incompetent fool is beyond me. I vehemently believe it’s because people don’t understand how the draft works and are just enamored by good young players.

Something is clearly wrong with the current state of the average Canuck fan. Im still a bit shocked how casual fans were with giving up a first rounder when we've been a lottery team for the last 4 years.

 

[GreatSaveLuongo]

One of the biggest head scratching deals is Tim Schaller...we overpaid for a useless body and doesn't contribute to anything...doesn't Benning know he has to pay Boeser this year right?
We waste money on spare parts where we should actually spend money on good money and pay scraps for warm bodies.
How the hell does Benning earn an extension for this kind of poor performance?

 

[Hit the post]

One of the biggest head scratching deals is Tim Schaller...we overpaid for a useless body and doesn't contribute to anything...doesn't Benning know he has to pay Boeser this year right?

You know you're bad when a guy like Markus Granlund is an upgrade over you.

Just imagine trying to sign Eriksson and Hughes the same summer while simultaneously chasing unrestricted free agents. I'm already looking forward to that

Benning nut huggers will merely say "Blame Gillis for the Luongo recapture".