Management Thread II - Read OP

[Jack Burton]

I was describing Myers there, not Hutton. Or the narrative of Myers. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Hutton didn't play the majority of tough minutes and Myers didn't play sheltered minutes.

You just keep believing that Myers didn't play sheltered minutes.

When the injuries hit this Blue line..
Includes QH...because he will be challenged.....Myers playing big minutes will NOT help us.

This is what everyone knows...winny let him walk for a reason son.

 

[TruGr1t]

Oddly, I feel a kinship with Blue Jays fans in terms of management. Obviously not similar in terms of financial management, but more so clearly having people in charge that don't know what they're doing. And way too heavy handed ownership.

 

[bbud]

Jim Benning himself expected to compete with the elite teams in year 5. I think its save to say he failed.

I don't know but last year when healthy I watched a hard working team scrappy stick to it fun to watch for a long part of the season they didn't quit ever and it's a better roster this year I'm not saying cup team but playoffs maybe which is a good start.

 

[TruGr1t]

Better than a materially worse defensively version of Hutton who plays some the easiest minutes in the NHL. That was the narrative. If Hutton could score 30 points there wouldn't be a debate about him being a top four. His contract is bad, sure. I hate giving any player term into their mid-thirties who isn't a first line talent. He's about market value for a second pair guy on July 1.

Hutton is likely better defensively, and that will probably become pretty clear when Myers takes the ice. The numbers are close so "material" is obviously subjective, but the real question is whether Myers is good enough offensively to justify the difference in AAV over the next 5 years. Because that's all you're really paying for. Not defense.

That's not even getting into the multitude of other potential Myers substitutes that could have been acquired via FA or trade. I suspect the Gardiner contract (who is a much better player than either Myers or Hutton) will all make us feel quite terrible despite the fact he may only be available to Eastern Conference teams.

 

[The Drop]

That's not the point. The point is you can think that the Canucks are capable of making the playoffs and think that Benning is gone if the Canucks miss the playoffs.

I don't think they're capable of making the playoffs even healthy and Benning uses the injury excuse.

Also I don't think Benning's job is in danger either way. There have way more opportunities to fire him and they haven't.

 

[The Drop]

Please find me the quotes where Benning has explicitly said he believes the Canucks are a "playoff" team in the last two seasons...He has said he would like the team to be 'competitive'...

This is ridiculous cherry picking. So what's your definition of competitive if it isn't being a playoff team?

Are non playoff teams competitive or do they just suck? The canucks sure have been "competitive" since Benning has been here. All those competitive lottery seasons.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

This is ridiculous cherry picking. So what's your definition of competitive if it isn't being a playoff team?

Are non playoff teams competitive or do they just suck? The canucks sure have been "competitive" since Benning has been here. All those competitive lottery seasons.

What is he supposed to say..?..As the spokesman of a $700M Professional sports team addressing Season Ticket Holder’s,sponsors and fans that buy tickets

If you seriously believe that the Canucks have been pushing for a playoff spot the last couple of years,then go ahead..

I’ve pointed out numerous times why they were not.

 

[The Drop]

What is he supposed to say..?..As the spokesman of a $700M Professional sports team addressing Season Ticket Holder’s,sponsors and fans that buy tickets

If you seriously believe that the Canucks have been pushing for a playoff spot the last couple of years,then go ahead..

I’ve pointed out numerous times why they were not.

They have been pushing for a playoff spot since he came here. That is not even disputable. Every year. His actions have echoed this with these veteran signings, trading of draft picks.

I don't believe the canucks have been pushing for a playoff spot, but they have been trying to make the playoffs EVERY year. If you don't believe that, cool. You're wrong.

EDIT:

And just to add, Jeff Gorton is the spokesman of a $1.55 Billion Professional sports team and addressed STHs, sponsors etc with this:



He explained how they're going to actually rebuild and move some familiar faces to build for the future and then has carried out that with some luck (Kakko) and some shrewd moves.

 

[Jack Burton]

What is he supposed to say..?..As the spokesman of a Professional sports team addressing Season Ticket Holder’s,sponsors and fans that buy tickets

If you seriously believe that the Canucks have been pushing for a playoff spot the last couple of years,then go ahead..

What is HE saponins to say?

What is every GMs sapased to say?

Results matter POM..
...............,..,.,................................................,..,..,.....,...........I know you don't care but some of us do.

 

[Hit the post]

I was describing Myers there, not Hutton. Or the narrative of Myers. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Fair enough. I'll tell you what, I'll take my share of the blame for misinterpreting your message.

Peace.

 

[Pip]

What is he supposed to say..?..As the spokesman of a $700M Professional sports team addressing Season Ticket Holder’s,sponsors and fans that buy tickets

If you seriously believe that the Canucks have been pushing for a playoff spot the last couple of years,then go ahead..

I’ve pointed out numerous times why they were not.

You're right. The Canucks have not been pushing for a playoff spot the last few years. They’ve been one of the worst teams in the league over that span. Unfortunately Canucks management has *tried* to compete and refused to rebuild. The evidence is right there. They’ve signed a bunch of veterans, many with expensive contracts and trade restrictions, and refused to acquire additional picks for the draft. There’s nothing they have said or done that has given any indication otherwise. Building a bad team while trying to compete and being rewarded with high picks is not rebuilding.

 

[Numba9]

And just to add, Jeff Gorton is the spokesman of a $1.55 Billion Professional sports team and addressed STHs, sponsors etc with this:



He explained how they're going to actually rebuild and move some familiar faces to build for the future and then has carried out that with some luck (Kakko) and some shrewd moves.

Nowhere in that message did he say rebuild or imply that they were going to suck. All this proves is that POM is right in his assessment that GMs will sugar coat statements to mitigate losing ticket holders.

 

[vanuck]

I see someone's head is buried in the sand here... but the sand is eroding away quickly and they're frantically trying to keep it that way in spite of everything.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

You're right. The Canucks have not been pushing for a playoff spot the last few years. They’ve been one of the worst teams in the league over that span. Unfortunately Canucks management has *tried* to compete and refused to rebuild. The evidence is right there. They’ve signed a bunch of veterans, many with expensive contracts and trade restrictions, and refused to acquire additional picks for the draft. There’s nothing they have said or done that has given any indication otherwise. Building a bad team while trying to compete and being rewarded with high picks is not rebuilding.

Most of what you're saying is the truth..They’re certainly not rebuilding now..

This season will reveal all..One way or another..

 

[TruGr1t]

Nowhere in that message did he say rebuild or imply that they were going to suck. All this proves is that POM is right in his assessment that GMs will sugar coat statements to mitigate losing ticket holders.

It basically never happens that you hear an organization bluntly say "we're tanking" in the summer. You hear it a bit more around Christmas if a team truly sucks and definitely pick it up around the deadline for obvious reasons.

The Rangers effectively did everything but tell their fans that. They were pretty blunt about the direction. Not just in that letter, but more broadly. They were selling off everything they could for picks and it was/is probably going to get pretty rough. They've gotten quite lucky in the interim, though.

The other one I recall recently is the Leafs being pretty outright about it during the early Shanaplan years and their pursuit of Matthews.

 

[The Drop]

Nowhere in that message did he say rebuild or imply that they were going to suck. All this proves is that POM is right in his assessment that GMs will sugar coat statements to mitigate losing ticket holders.

We’re focused on adding young, competitive, speed players.

They traded away Rick Nash, Zucarello and JT Miller after that letter. Acquired 3- first round picks, 3 second rd picks and 2 3rd picks.

Is that not doing exactly what he said?

There isn’t a single person who doesn’t have an agenda that read that letter and didn’t conclude they were about to start a rebuild.

Fast forward to today and they’re ahead of the Canucks

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

We’re focused on adding young, competitive, speed players.

They traded away Rick Nash, Zucarello and JT Miller after that letter. Acquired 3- first round picks, 3 second rd picks and 2 3rd picks.

Is that not doing exactly what he said?

There isn’t a single person who doesn’t have an agenda that read that letter and didn’t conclude they were about to start a rebuild.

Fast forward to today and they’re ahead of the Canucks

No true elite 1C or 1D in their prospects..sure about that?

 

[MS]

No true elite 1C or 1D in their prospects..sure about that?

They just traded for a 1D who is only a year older than Horvat. It doesn’t really matter that they don’t have a 1D prospect in their system.

We don’t have a 1D prospect in our system, either, for the record.

 

[rypper]

Nowhere in that message did he say rebuild or imply that they were going to suck. All this proves is that POM is right in his assessment that GMs will sugar coat statements to mitigate losing ticket holders.

If the rangers message is unsatisfactory, then I believe the leafs pretty much came out and stopped millimetres short of telling their fans they were going to suck. So that's a GM/ coach of a 1.45 billion dollar sports team saying thar to its fanbase.

 

[iceburg]

We’re focused on adding young, competitive, speed players.

They traded away Rick Nash, Zucarello and JT Miller after that letter. Acquired 3- first round picks, 3 second rd picks and 2 3rd picks.

Is that not doing exactly what he said?

There isn’t a single person who doesn’t have an agenda that read that letter and didn’t conclude they were about to start a rebuild.

Fast forward to today and they’re ahead of the Canucks

To be fair, what assets did the Canucks have that would have generated a similar return to Nash, Zucarello, Miller, and I add McDonagh? The Sedins? They weren't going anywhere. I see the argument that signing guys in their late 20s and 30s is counter to a rebuild. But it's harder to argue that they had assets that they could trade for 1st round picks.

 

[rypper]

After reading Michael Russo's article from the Athletic about Paul Fenton's dismissal from as GM of the wild, it's hard not to draw parallels.

Firing or not retaining respected and intelligent staff members.

Piss poor pro scouting decisions.

Hiring their sons for scouting roles.

Questionable contracts to 30+ players.

Internal dysfunction within the off ice team.

Etc. Only the Wild walked away relatively quickly and we've held on for 5 or so years.

 

[rypper]

To be fair, what assets did the Canucks have that would have generated a similar return to Nash, Zucarello, Miller, and I add McDonagh? The Sedins? They weren't going anywhere. I see the argument that signing guys in their late 20s and 30s is counter to a rebuild. But it's harder to argue that they had assets that they could trade for 1st round picks.

The Canucks had plenty of movable assets that could have returned picks/ futures but instead tried to retool on the fly and their trade returns reflected that.

The Kesler trade for example, Bob Murray said everything was on the table except the 10th overall. They could have targeted one of the ducks defensive prospects.

Harman Dayal's recent article with the athletic covers this more.

 

[mriswith]

We’re focused on adding young, competitive, speed players.

They traded away Rick Nash, Zucarello and JT Miller after that letter. Acquired 3- first round picks, 3 second rd picks and 2 3rd picks.

Is that not doing exactly what he said?

There isn’t a single person who doesn’t have an agenda that read that letter and didn’t conclude they were about to start a rebuild.

Fast forward to today and they’re ahead of the Canucks

The rangers rebuild, from a process perspective, has been leaps and bounds better than our "rebuild"... whenever it happened.

But moving forward it's impossible to compare ourselves to them as a model for rebuilding if you're just looking at the standings. The only reason they're ahead of us right now is because this summer a franchise winger and #1D both decided playing in the big apple was the only city they'd consider, AND they won the lottery from 6th last in the league. It's up for debate how much Fox was a one-team destination player as well and he's a key piece for them moving forward too.

Those are the major reasons they're ahead of us as of this particular moment in time and they aren't reasons we could have controlled.

Their farm versus our farm is where you really see the impact of better management and rebuild process.

The Canucks had plenty of movable assets that could have returned picks/ futures but instead tried to retool on the fly and their trade returns reflected that.

The Kesler trade for example, Bob Murray said everything was on the table except the 10th overall. They could have targeted one of the ducks defensive prospects.

Harman Dayal's recent article with the athletic covers this more.

I badly wanted Theodore at the time, the trade I was hoping for was Theodore + 1st.

I don't remember if Benning made the mandate, or was mandated to, but it came out later that it was a requirement to trade Kesler for players who could play immediately, so prospects were off the table entirely. Sigh.

 

[elitepete]

What is he supposed to say..?..As the spokesman of a $700M Professional sports team addressing Season Ticket Holder’s,sponsors and fans that buy tickets

If you seriously believe that the Canucks have been pushing for a playoff spot the last couple of years,then go ahead..

I’ve pointed out numerous times why they were not.

This is ridiculous. They have been spending close to the cap and trading draft pick/prospects for roster players.

 

[Numba9]

If the rangers message is unsatisfactory, then I believe the leafs pretty much came out and stopped millimetres short of telling their fans they were going to suck. So that's a GM/ coach of a 1.45 billion dollar sports team saying thar to its fanbase.

Toronto could have said they were going to replace their entire roster with the Alumni over 65 club as an experiment to see if they can win one game and they would still have sold out 82 times.