Post-Game Talk: Make it 8-2-2: Canucks 2, Wild 1

[AmazingNuck]

Nope.


Ehrhoff was sheltered with his minutes here. His QoC wasn't great, and he sifted down to the bottom pair during games where they had to protect him. In the playoffs, he got exposed.


I don't want a PP specialist you have to shelter like that. And then perhaps make an even make a bigger mistake by giving him 5.6m or whatever. He was good for what he was, but this team needs to play a harder, more consistent brand of hockey.

First off, PP specialist =/= sheltered. We shelter the Sedins as much as we sheltered Ehrhoff. I never remember him being sifted down to the bottom pairing as you claim. In the playoffs, the entire team was exposed and Ehrhoff had a torn shoulder for which he had to have surgery.

I don't think you understand the definition of PP specialist. A PP specialist is a defenseman who plays only the powerplay and sheltered even strength minutes for the purpose of resting other defensemen. Ehrhoff played the powerplay, but he was also a penalty killer and played ES minutes extensively. There's a difference between being sheltered and matching up, and with a coach that's notorious for matching up, his QoC is naturally low. Why? Because it makes no sense to play a player like Ehrhoff against players like Thornton or Toews. We have defined ROLES to do that. Ehrhoff's was to score and play adequate defense, which he excelled at.

Ehrhoff's as much a PP specialist as Daniel and Henrik. In fact, without Ehrhoff, Edler's being "exposed defensively" by your logic. Edler has not been the same defenseman without Ehrhoff, nor have the Sedins been the same forwards without Ehrhoff.

 

[Fa Ci La]

Kesler's playing the next game and Manny's getting sent down. AV and Gillis gave him the week off to spend time with his wife and baby before he goes on the road for a few months.



Is my personal speculation.

seems to me it's far more likely they've given Manny a couple of days off to give Ebbett another game to show why he should be up here, given waiving Ebbett makes about a billion times more sense than Manny.

 

[Free Edler]

Damn all those people making noise at a hockey game!

Vuvuzelas are crossing a line. Cheering/noise from fans is awesome, but those ******* things shouldn't be welcome in an NHL arena.

 

[Bleach Clean]

It's up to them to sort out that sort of stuff as a team and what they want to react to. Fans just want "justice" and "revenge" for their own amusement.

I'm sure Daniel wasn't amused by that hit. Nor Henrik being hassled by Suter after a couple of whistles. The Canucks are not known for handling these situations to any conclusion. Instead, we have the chippy play against the twins, and others, continue well into the late 3rd period.


Nobody is being kept honest here. It's been this way for a while, and the Canucks have taken _active_ steps to correct it. Except the execution to correct these things hasn't been there. They have to take that last step.


Fans want to see these situations get resolved before they impact the rest of the game. That isn't for amusement, but to better protect this team's top players, which have been left unprotected for too long already.

 

[Bgav]

time to celebrate the win

 

[AmazingNuck]

2010/11 Edler had 33 points in 51 games. The notion that he was strictly a defensive player that Garrison is now replacing is the fallacious side of the argument. This team had both Ehrhoff and Edler, both of whom were offensive threats, while Edler was more defensively sound. Now, this team still has the offensive Edler, who's regressed slightly in defense, and a Garrison that I don't see putting up the same kinds of stats Edler did back in 2010/11.

You keep saying Garrison replaces Edler. This makes no sense because Edler's offensive production was still elite back then. You can say that Ehrhoff's offensive role as a defenseman was replaced by a more defensive one in Garrison. That makes sense. That I can understand. And that is a reason why this team's offense has taken a hit, because we swapped out more sound D for less O.

The only fallacy that I see here is you making a straw man argument. You seem to not understand what I'm saying.

1. Edler is replacing Ehrhoff's role as the primary offensive producer of the top pairing. This is undeniable.

2. Garrison is replacing Edler's role as the primary defensive anchor of the top pairing. This too is undeniable.

3. Edler moves up the offensive pecking order to where Ehrhoff was, and Garrison moves up the defensive pecking order to where Edler was.

This is all I have said. You have interpreted my stance as saying that Garrison replaces Edler's offensive side and defensive side, which, upon clarification of my original statement, should have been understood as incorrect. But you insist that I've said that Garrison replaces Edler's offensive role in addition to his defensive role, which I did not.

I don't blame Edler for the offense taking a hit, nor do I blame Garrison for the offense taking a hit. What I blame is the lack of Ehrhoff. As Edler is Ehrhoff's replacement as the primary offensive threat from the back end, he does not bring what Ehrhoff brought to the table in terms of offensive skill set, despite scoring more points.

 

[David71]

erhoff was good with the sedins. rushes the puck well. smart/pp specialist IMO. when he was here van was scoring off the rush.
now that he's gone. no one on the nucks really has a accurate hard shot. edler/garrison misses. garrison=disspointment so far. taken off both pp units. maybe his groin? is acting up. and what's the deal with the malhotra situation. he and his family just welcomed a newborn a few days ago. is mgmnt telling him something we dont know?

 

[AmazingNuck]

I'm sure Daniel wasn't amused by that hit. Nor Henrik being hassled by Suter after a couple of whistles. The Canucks are not known for handling these situations to any conclusion. Instead, we have the chippy play against the twins, and others, continue well into the late 3rd period.


Nobody is being kept honest here. It's been this way for a while, and the Canucks have taken _active_ steps to correct it. Except the execution to correct these things hasn't been there. They have to take that last step.


Fans want to see these situations get resolved before they impact the rest of the game. That isn't for amusement, but to better protect this team's top players, which have been left unprotected for too long already.

The Sedins will always be pushed around. No amount of enforcers, powerplay goals, or powerforward wingers will stop this. Being pushed around is fundamental to the fact that the Sedins are who they are, and that's the same for all players similar to them- thin, skilled, primary offensive threats.

The Canucks have not found a solution because there is no solution to be found.

 

[Bleach Clean]

First off, PP specialist =/= sheltered. We shelter the Sedins as much as we sheltered Ehrhoff. I never remember him being sifted down to the bottom pairing as you claim. In the playoffs, the entire team was exposed and Ehrhoff had a torn shoulder for which he had to have surgery.

Ehrhoff was considered soft before he even got to VAN. I'm guessing you didn't follow SJ much? And Ehrhoff was shifted down to the bottom pair when the team wanted to roll better ES pairs. He would see time with O'Brien and other #6 Dmen while Edler continued to get hard matched.


PP specialists usually get sheltered. It's difficult to find a PP anchor that doesn't need to be sheltered at ES, because then you're talking about a big money player.

I don't think you understand the definition of PP specialist. A PP specialist is a defenseman who plays only the powerplay and sheltered even strength minutes for the purpose of resting other defensemen. Ehrhoff played the powerplay, but he was also a penalty killer and played ES minutes extensively. There's a difference between being sheltered and matching up, and with a coach that's notorious for matching up, his QoC is naturally low. Why? Because it makes no sense to play a player like Ehrhoff against players like Thornton or Toews. We have defined ROLES to do that. Ehrhoff's was to score and play adequate defense, which he excelled at.

Ehrhoff's as much a PP specialist as Daniel and Henrik. In fact, without Ehrhoff, Edler's being "exposed defensively" by your logic. Edler has not been the same defenseman without Ehrhoff, nor have the Sedins been the same forwards without Ehrhoff.

I understand the specialist term just fine. I didn't like Ehrhoff on the PK either.


I also know why his QoC was low, but then I never expected him to be hard matched against the other team's top players, because he would get exposed. The only time it made sense is if the coach wanted to go strength on strength. Roles are great, getting hammered when the QoC ratcheted up doesn't really care about roles though.


And you're fooling yourself if you think Ehrhoff was as effective as either twin at ES. These guys take a pounding against the best Ds in the league, and they carried Ehrhoff far more than the opposite was true.


I've also seen Edler try to carry Salo last year, finishing with a much better QoC than he had when paired with Ehrhoff. Yes, roles played a factor in that too. But it's why Edler gets his 5m contract and Ehrhoff is punted out. Gillis and co. saw the same thing with hard competition with regards to Ehrhoff, and didn't want to compensate him.

 

[Bleach Clean]

The Sedins will always be pushed around. No amount of enforcers, powerplay goals, or powerforward wingers will stop this. Being pushed around is fundamental to the fact that the Sedins are who they are, and that's the same for all players similar to them- thin, skilled, primary offensive threats.

The Canucks have not found a solution because there is no solution to be found.

Really? Makes you wonder why they went out and grabbed a Kassian then? He is a component to a larger solution. The Canucks aren't done, but they're getting there. They haven't accepted it, like you're suggesting.


And define "thin", if you would.

 

[DL44]

Ebbett played a very good/solid game... that's all i'll say..

 

[Win One Before I Die]

The Sedins will always be pushed around. No amount of enforcers, powerplay goals, or powerforward wingers will stop this. Being pushed around is fundamental to the fact that the Sedins are who they are, and that's the same for all players similar to them- thin, skilled, primary offensive threats.

The Canucks have not found a solution because there is no solution to be found.

Seems like whenever the Canucks stand up for them they come out of the scrum penalized.

 

[D0ctorCool]

Yup. 10 years ago. It was a remixed version and sounded quite cool.

Yup. Luckily, we weren't hearing that song much back in those days.

 

[vector209]

The only fallacy that I see here is you making a straw man argument. You seem to not understand what I'm saying.

1. Edler is replacing Ehrhoff's role as the primary offensive producer of the top pairing. This is undeniable.

2. Garrison is replacing Edler's role as the primary defensive anchor of the top pairing. This too is undeniable.

3. Edler moves up the offensive pecking order to where Ehrhoff was, and Garrison moves up the defensive pecking order to where Edler was.

This is all I have said. You have interpreted my stance as saying that Garrison replaces Edler's offensive side and defensive side, which, upon clarification of my original statement, should have been understood as incorrect. But you insist that I've said that Garrison replaces Edler's offensive role in addition to his defensive role, which I did not.

I don't blame Edler for the offense taking a hit, nor do I blame Garrison for the offense taking a hit. What I blame is the lack of Ehrhoff. As Edler is Ehrhoff's replacement as the primary offensive threat from the back end, he does not bring what Ehrhoff brought to the table in terms of offensive skill set, despite scoring more points.

Regarding the last paragraph, I think we both agree here.

It seems like the rest of what you're saying is what's leading to confusion. You're assuming I don't get the point you're trying to get across, when I do: that Ehrhoff's status as the #1 point producer on the back end has been replaced by Edler, who despite putting up similar stats, can't replicate his successful play style. I get that, so don't assume I don't.

I'm not sure where the rest of this little debate is stemming from, but I'm saying Edler's offense has essentially remained status quo, while Ehrhoff's has yet to be replaced by anyone. Do you agree with that?

 

[EpochLink]

time to celebrate the win

Oh yeah! Here's another one.

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

Sedins get pushed around. LOL

Doesnt seem to bother them not to mention Hank has missed something like a total of 10 games his whole career. For a guy whos whole game is based on holding the puck and working down low and in traffic.

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

Anyone listening to the team 1040 post-game show?

Season ticket holders in the upper bowl calling in complaining that the Southsiders were too loud, and had the nerve to stand (from my understanding they had a section all the way to the back).

So I guess we can put to rest the myth that the "real" fans are all in the upper section.

One caller even said he prefers the arena to be quiet

It's a shame, Canucks games will never have that fun atmosphere it seems.

Yeah I heard that. On the other hand one of the other callers made comments that would lead one to believe fans from an English premiership team were present. Some guys lit up a smoke, someone took their pants off.


Frankly I miss the Pacific Coliseum. The whole family atmosphere sucks. And Vancouver is full of NIMBYism.

 

[Lemmiwinks]

Oh yeah! Here's another one.

There's plenty of these

 

[Vancouver_2010]

Oh yeah! Here's another one.

 

[DL44]

Sedins get pushed around. LOL

Doesnt seem to bother them not to mention Hank has missed something like a total of 10 games his whole career. For a guy whos whole game is based on holding the puck and working down low and in traffic.

heh heh.. its amazing how they take a hit (even after a whistle).. and just skate away like it was a nothing play... meanwhile i'm jumping in my seat going "WTF, WHERE'S THE RESPONSE!"
Those guys are on a whole other level us regualer fans can not comprehend...

 

[freakydave]

Very uneven game for the Canucks. Certainly not aided by some very one-sided reffing. Gilbert had to get a penalty on Burrows. The ref lecturing LaPierre was like someone reffing a kids game. I wish sometimes the players would hand their sticks over to some of these so-called NHL refs so they could then show off in front of the fans. If they really want to be the stars of the game let's see them actually play.

The Good

Luongo - just outstanding. Some of those saves in the third were incredible. Finally just letting Luongo play his game (without the head games - like making him captain or changing his style) and he is world class.

Sedins - very little finish but created tons of chances. Had to put up with a lot of mugging but kept their noses to the grind stone and fought thru the hacking and holding. They have come to realize they will never get the calls.

Raymond - another very strong game. His play in his own zone has vastly improved. As dependable as anyone getting the puck out of his zone.

Hansen - along with Luongo the first star. I said a few years ago that I felt Hansen had Albertsson potential. If he ever gets a little better hands he's there.

Bieksa - had to bail out Garrison all night. Played a hard ass game and provided the team with some defensive push back. Made good plays out of his zone all night. He is a very solid player.

Tanev - this player has great speed in getting the puck up ice and in creating space. Anticipates the play so well and manoeuvres so well with out the puck that he makes it look easy. His work along the boards continues to improve.

The Bad

Garrison - really struggling. Opposite of Tanev in that he gets to the puck too slow and ends up getting forechecked. Never seems to buy himself some time. Also, was handing off his problems (that he created himself) to other people all game. Just hacking it over to the other defenseman or up the wing. In addition, lagged way too far behind the play. One of the first things you're taught as a defenseman is to get up to the blue line as the puck is getting moved up over your blueline. At the moment Garrison has no ability to support the rush. Also giving up the blueline and just backing right in. Garrison needs to be cut some slack b/c he is new to the team but the early returns aren't all that encouraging. Right now he is fighting it big time.

Other points

Schroeder had some room to do more with the puck but was a little too hurried. Felt he could have done more with the chances created by Hansen and Raymond but he is surviving and continues to do an adequate defensive job.

Thought all of Ballard, Edler and Hamhuis had good moments and some bad ones. Give Minny credit for a strong forecheck but lots of turnovers in our own end. Without Luongo we could have been burned bad

Waiting for Kesler is becoming akin to Waiting for Godot. You want him back soon so they can get plugs like Ebbett out of the lineup. On the other hand the team is winning and you want Kesler as healthy as possible.

Kassain exhibited some of his great potential again but there were shifts where he seemed to be wandering. Great pass on the first goal but some blown opportunities as well. Hard to be patient but its vital here. Glad to see the team still using him in all situations

Thought Ebbett had some decent shifts early in the game but faltered as the game went on. Never should be on the pk b/c he can't get any pressure on the puck. Having him out on the pk late in the game made no sense.

LaPierre was a another player with an in and out effort. Had to have the puck over to Burrows in the last minute there. But he did some heavy hitting and was good on crucial face offs. Player that is still rounding into shape it seems. Love to see him with Volpatti and Weise on the 4th line.

Out of this entire summary the only thing I disagree with is I thought Ballard belonged in the good section tonight-for how complete a game he played.

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

heh heh.. its amazing how they take a hit (even after a whistle).. and just skate away like it was a nothing play... meanwhile i'm jumping in my seat going "WTF, WHERE'S THE RESPONSE!"
Those guys are on a whole other level us regualer fans can not comprehend...

Well its like MG said about them being like Jean Ratelle.

Ive been in and out of the Canucks scene as I havent lived in Vancvouer much for the last 10 years but I was there for their first couple and the knock on them was "too small", "too weak", "cant skate", "get pushed around" and every time I came back to Vancouver Id be amazed at how they had developed despite these apparent weakness.

The style of game they play is probably to toughest in terms of being "sitting duck" targets yet here they are.

I think they are the Dali Lama swedish cousins.

 

[freakydave]

You guys are crazy about Garrison. Bad skater? Whaaat? Garrison is a fine defense men who is eating minutes reliably. His underlying numbers when they signed him suggested a quality possession player who was scoring last year with a very high shooting percentage. The Canucks mush have known his shooting percentage would regress, but they signed him anyways because they wanted another Hamhuis-like player who reliably devours tough minutes (thus taking some of the heavy load typically carried by Juice and Hamhuis previously).

unfortunately, fans aren't smart. They see the goal column and had expectations for Ehrhoff. Knew this reaction would happen. Shelve your power play expectations and know that he's still making a very positive impact on this lineup.

Glad to read this---12 games in the team has won 6 in a row & some of the fans are measuring Garrison for the size of the crucifix he'll drag to the rink each game.
I was reading a Zajac thread where fans outside NJ were ragging on his production & his contract.Only then did I discover NJ was 2nd in the eastern conf.--If Garrison fails to live up to expectations fans have for him but Vancouver is winning --I'm happy guy-
Give the guy season & then look see what you think.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Anyone see AV get upset at Henrik getting the abuse he did from the MIN players? I think that he just affirms the opinion of the people that felt the Wild went a bit to far in their treatment of the twins. He confirms it. So people aren't off in their awareness of that fact.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Anyone see AV get upset at Henrik getting the abuse he did from the MIN players? I think that he just affirms the opinion of the people that felt the Wild went a bit to far in their treatment of the twins. He confirms it. So people aren't off in their awareness of that fact.

Then when that guy hit Daniel behind at the whistle the only penalty was to Lapierre? Yeah I recall that.